Sephiroth... major spoilers that might change your view on who is the best villain!!!

[Big D]

Well that's pretty debateable, but either way it was the Cetra in her that let her do magic. Sephiroth didn't have this.

Indeed. Sephiroth instead posessed a fragment of "Jenova's superior inteliigence, strength and magic", or whatever words are actually used in the game.

But that's the thing, they weren't amplified, they were completely new. Everyone else with Jenova cells got a little stronger, no psychic abilities at all, let alone the stuff 'Sephiroth' could do.

Naturally. Don't you see? Sephiroth was trying to become a 'God', a far higher form of life. Preturnatural abilities are a part of that.

So then what was the point of making Jenova look like Sephiroth. If all he was doing was guiding it, why did it have to look like him?

He wanted everyone to see that he was back, he was doing his stuff for his own benefit. Also, he had to convince the Clones to come to him with the Black Materia.

But the reason for the reunion was to get JENOVA back together, it had nothing really to do with Sephiroth. All 'he' needed was the Black Materia which only required Cloud and Co.

The Reunion allowed Jenova's body to reform, yes, but it also provided a means of getting the Black Materia to Sephiroth, who was imprisoned in the Northern Crater. He couldn't go anywhere; someone had to get the Materia to him. That's where the Clones came in - he could sacrficice countless of them without any real risk. They could travel, investigate, solve problems, do menial tasks without question. Many of the clones stated their desire to "find it... and bring it to Sephiroth".

But the thing is, in VI there was noone else around who could have done it. Jenova had all these powers way before Sephiroth. Both Cloud and Sephiroth experience the same thing, but only one gains these powers, seems fairly odd.

Sephiroth is a near-complete fusion of Jenova and Human cells, for moreso than Cloud or the other Clones. He's far stronger than any Human, even before his plunge into the Lifestream, an experience he was able to survive because of his superior endurance. Most Humans would go mad and die because of the sheer amount of raw energy and knowledge down there, but Sephiroth was strong enough to take that into himself and begin his deadly transformation. Cloud had only a little Jenova in him; his Lifestream experience nearly killed him.

I know I shouldn't say this to a Knight, but you may have forgotten given this arguement is fairly complex, you might wanna tag the FFVI stuff.

I know this is complex, I'm just trying to keep it accessible. FFVI has its own complexity too, you know - in fact, you could argue that Kefka was merely (SPOILER)a mindless puppet under the control of the vengeful Goddesses who wanted their revenge on the world. In fact, it'd be pretty neat if someone were to start that debate in the FFVI forum... sure as heck won't be me though .

[PhoenixAsh]

Indeed. Sephiroth instead posessed a fragment of "Jenova's superior inteliigence, strength and magic", or whatever words are actually used in the game.

I know it's repeating myself but it annoys me when people ignore something I say in a debate and only address what they can answer so:
Only 'Sephiroth' posessed this, noone else took this from Jenova. Given he had just had his mind shattered, been severely wounded, and went through something that sent Cloud into a coma (type thing) after a week or two, you'd think that wouldn't leave him in a state to suddenly advance his mental capacity way beyond God like status.

Naturally. Don't you see? Sephiroth was trying to become a 'God', a far higher form of life. Preturnatural abilities are a part of that.

Trying being the important word. Meteor hadn't hit, Sephiroth shouldn't have had nearly the power he had, assuming the pure souls of the Cetra and lifestream grant the same powers a Crisis From The Sky does.

He wanted everyone to see that he was back, he was doing his stuff for his own benefit. Also, he had to convince the Clones to come to him with the Black Materia.

Why would he want people to know he was back? He couldn't even move, so he was in no place to go on an ego trip, not that he was particularly egotistical before.
The clone bit works either way so I won't answer that.

The Reunion allowed Jenova's body to reform, yes, but it also provided a means of getting the Black Materia to Sephiroth, who was imprisoned in the Northern Crater. He couldn't go anywhere; someone had to get the Materia to him. That's where the Clones came in - he could sacrficice countless of them without any real risk. They could travel, investigate, solve problems, do menial tasks without question. Many of the clones stated their desire to "find it... and bring it to Sephiroth".

Didn't Hojo (or maybe Gast) predict the reunion? If so it would seem odd that they did so even though the entire purpose of it was something they had never heard of.

Sephiroth is a near-complete fusion of Jenova and Human cells, for moreso than Cloud or the other Clones. He's far stronger than any Human, even before his plunge into the Lifestream, an experience he was able to survive because of his superior endurance. Most Humans would go mad and die because of the sheer amount of raw energy and knowledge down there, but Sephiroth was strong enough to take that into himself and begin his deadly transformation. Cloud had only a little Jenova in him; his Lifestream experience nearly killed him.

But as I said it's not an amplification, its brand new. He wasn't that strong before anyway, he could only do 3000 or so damage. His mind wasn't stronger than most people's, in fact by the time he entered the lifestream it was much, much weaker.

I know this is complex, I'm just trying to keep it accessible. FFVI has its own complexity too, you know - in fact, you could argue that Kefka was merely (SPOILER)a mindless puppet under the control of the vengeful Goddesses who wanted their revenge on the world. In fact, it'd be pretty neat if someone were to start that debate in the FFVI forum... sure as heck won't be me though .

I wasn't questioning your debating ability, I was pointing out that you had FFVI spoilers in your last post untagged.

[Big D]

Only 'Sephiroth' posessed this, noone else took this from Jenova. Given he had just had his mind shattered, been severely wounded, and went through something that sent Cloud into a coma (type thing) after a week or two, you'd think that wouldn't leave him in a state to suddenly advance his mental capacity way beyond God like status.

That was a result of his trip through the Lifestream, as I said. It took years for those powers to accumulate.

Trying being the important word. Meteor hadn't hit, Sephiroth shouldn't have had nearly the power he had, assuming the pure souls of the Cetra and lifestream grant the same powers a Crisis From The Sky does.

His transformation wasn't complete, but he was getting there. Once Meteor hit, he would've bonded completely with the Planet, finally becoming a 'true' God.

Didn't Hojo (or maybe Gast) predict the reunion? If so it would seem odd that they did so even though the entire purpose of it was something they had never heard of.

Hojo knew that Jenova's dismembered body would find a way to reform itself. Jenova was incapacitated, so Sephiroth took charge and summoned the Clones. Manipulating htem, convincing them to find and bring the Black Materia was just another 'bonus' for him.

But as I said it's not an amplification, its brand new. He wasn't that strong before anyway, he could only do 3000 or so damage. His mind wasn't stronger than most people's, in fact by the time he entered the lifestream it was much, much weaker.

Sephiroth was widely acknowledged as 'the greatest warrior of all time'; the fact that his 'damage numbers' are a little lower is merely an issue of game mechanics. In his time, he was the greatest fighter in the world. By the time he got to the Lifestream, he was angry and determined; it's not necessarily irrefutable that Jenova had taken over his mind. After all, he allegedly came to his conclusions about his 'rightful place' as a Cetra after reading the reports in the Shinra Mansion. His will, perhaps blended with Jenova's, was as strong as ever, if not stronger.

[PhoenixAsh]

That was a result of his trip through the Lifestream, as I said. It took years for those powers to accumulate.

You only assumed that, and if he just happened to gain the same powers Jenova already had it's a pretty huge coincidence.

His transformation wasn't complete, but he was getting there. Once Meteor hit, he would've bonded completely with the Planet, finally becoming a 'true' God.

So he can get to near God status through going for a swim in it, but he decides he wants to destroy the planet just for that extra push?

Hojo knew that Jenova's dismembered body would find a way to reform itself. Jenova was incapacitated, so Sephiroth took charge and summoned the Clones. Manipulating htem, convincing them to find and bring the Black Materia was just another 'bonus' for him.

Hojo knowing that would suggest he knew Jenova could survive while split up. There is no evidence Jenova is incapacitated. It's weakened, but only compared to it's former self, but it's still damn strong. The reunion would restore it fully though, and is far more beneficial to Jenova than Sephiroth, as I can't imagine Jenova letting a human rule anything once she was back to full strength.

Sephiroth was widely acknowledged as 'the greatest warrior of all time'; the fact that his 'damage numbers' are a little lower is merely an issue of game mechanics. In his time, he was the greatest fighter in the world. By the time he got to the Lifestream, he was angry and determined; it's not necessarily irrefutable that Jenova had taken over his mind. After all, he allegedly came to his conclusions about his 'rightful place' as a Cetra after reading the reports in the Shinra Mansion. His will, perhaps blended with Jenova's, was as strong as ever, if not stronger.

Even after going through his time in the lifestream Cloud could still kick his ass. Sephiroth is by no means ridiculously strong, Jenova treatments of SOLDIERS just wasn't very well developed in his day, and he was strongest.
His will wasn't strong, he let Cloud beat him in the reactor. Cloud at the time was at a severe disadvantage.

[Big D]

You only assumed that, and if he just happened to gain the same powers Jenova already had it's a pretty huge coincidence.

Right... he's got Jenova's essence within him already, and then when he becomes stronger, he gains more of her powers - that's a 'coincidence'? Seems natural to me.

So he can get to near God status through going for a swim in it, but he decides he wants to destroy the planet just for that extra push?

He was beginning to bond with the world ("I am becoming one with the Planet..."), and that's where those powers began to emerge. Summoning Meteor wouldn't destroy the Planet per se, rather it'd unleach a huge amount of Spirit Energy (from all the lives lost, and from the energy needed to heal the wound) and that's when he'd amass the remaining energy.

Hojo knowing that would suggest he knew Jenova could survive while split up. There is no evidence Jenova is incapacitated. It's weakened, but only compared to it's former self, but it's still damn strong.

So Jenova allowed herself to get sealed in solid rock for millennia, then let Shinra scientists cut her up for experiments, then let Sephiroth cut off her freakin' head, then just sat around in a tank for five further years, all of her own free will? 'Cause she was bored of world domination or something?

The reunion would restore it fully though, and is far more beneficial to Jenova than Sephiroth, as I can't imagine Jenova letting a human rule anything once she was back to full strength.

Sephiroth is the closest thing she has to family; a 'compatible' being who shares her goals and superiority complex, for whatever reason. She can't personally bond with the Planet; she needs Sephiroth for that, but she can join with him - as we see in Bizarro Sephiroth. Besides, if Sephiroth became 'god', he'd be far superior to Jenova.

Even after going through his time in the lifestream Cloud could still kick his ass.

Still, it took quite a few goes - Bizarro Sephiroth, the burgeoning God, put up quite a fight; Safer Sephiroth even moreso. It was only then, when his power had been worn down, when he was reduced to his Human form - Cloud was finally able to beat him, by unleashing five years of pent-up anger and hatred. 'Sides, that's how it always goes in the Final Fantasies - the 'final boss' has to be capable of losing to the heroes (who spend their entire quest gaining strength and magic, by the way) or else the plot wouldn't really mean anything. Would you play a game with an unbeatable final opponent?

Sephiroth is by no means ridiculously strong, Jenova treatments of SOLDIERS just wasn't very well developed in his day, and he was strongest.

He was the best, a veritable legend in his time. He was always distinct from other Humans, right from when he was a child. He was more than just another Jenova-injected SOLDIER member.

His will wasn't strong, he let Cloud beat him in the reactor. Cloud at the time was at a severe disadvantage.

Well, Cloud had got a lucky shot in and attacked Sephiroth from behind while he was standing, gazing into Jenova's storage case. Sephiroth was wounded, so Cloud was able to overpower him and throw him into the Lifestream. Cloud had one 'power' that Sephiroth lacked - the righteous anger brought on by the destruction of Nibelheim. Sephiroth was oblivious to the concepts of home, family and love; he had no idea of the strength that they provide. Consequently, he completely underestimated Cloud's potential at that time.

You can't judge a character's strength and abilities solely from the games battel mechanics, like HP and MP. After all, it's easy to make Yuffie into the game's strongest character, with greater speed, strength and magical ability than anyone else, including Safer Sephiroth. This doesn't mean she's a higher form of life than him or anything.

[Nevermore]

I inquire to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Sephiroth.
Sephiroth existed, as Cloud (Or rather Zack.) knew him in his younger days, his first in SOLDIER. This Sephy, who was induced by Jenova Cells, was badly hurt by Zack.
Hojo continues the experiment, attempting to make clones of Sephiroth using the cells from the organism found 2000 years ago. Cloud is one of them, but bears no mark as he's a failure.
Zack disappears ot gets shot or something, and Tifa's memories of Zack become Cloud's identity.
(She doesn't want to let go of her love for Zack. She's as messed up as everyone else.)

What you are chasing through the game is Jenova itself, never Sephiroth or any of it's clones. Cloud, being a clone, unknowingly follows her to attend the reunion and become one with the Life Stream, and then Sephiroth, the real Sephiroth, apparently still kickin'.

Or at least that's along the lines of what I understood.

As for the Weapons going after Jenova.
Jenova was sealed away by the Cetra 2000 years ago if I understand, therefore the Weapons were not needed.
Jenova had caused the first injury to the planet, which in turn gave birth to the Weapons as defence.
Now they rise again, against the threat of oncoming Meteor.

[Big D]

Originally posted by Nevermore
I inquire to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Sephiroth.
Sephiroth existed, as Cloud (Or rather Zack.) knew him in his younger days, his first in SOLDIER. This Sephy, who was induced by Jenova Cells, was badly hurt by Zack.
Hojo continues the experiment, attempting to make clones of Sephiroth using the cells from the organism found 2000 years ago. Cloud is one of them, but bears no mark as he's a failure.
Zack disappears ot gets shot or something, and Tifa's memories of Zack become Cloud's identity.
(She doesn't want to let go of her love for Zack. She's as messed up as everyone else.)

Cloud's "identity" was a result of the stories and experiences Zack told him about. Tifa never loved Zack, but she did care about Cloud, but was 'messed up' because his memories and hers had crucial differences.

What you are chasing through the game is Jenova itself, never Sephiroth or any of it's clones.

That's the crux of what's being debated here. I'm contending that Sephiroth was a direct part of what was being chased; not his real body, of course, but rather a projection of his mind, which was helping to get Jenova's body to the Reunion. "What, you mean he's carryin' that big thing around?" as Barret says. It simply makes little to no sense for Jenova to go to such great lengths to pretend to be Sephiroth.

Cloud, being a clone, unknowingly follows her to attend the reunion and become one with the Life Stream, and then Sephiroth, the real Sephiroth, apparently still kickin'.

That's right. He thought he was pursuing Sephiroth simply to exact justice, but rather the call of Jenova's instincts, and Sephiroth's influence (which are much the same thing), was compelling him to give pursuit as well.

As for the Weapons going after Jenova.
Jenova was sealed away by the Cetra 2000 years ago if I understand, therefore the Weapons were not needed.
Jenova had caused the first injury to the planet, which in turn gave birth to the Weapons as defence.
Now they rise again, against the threat of oncoming Meteor.

Yep, that's what I figured. The use of the Black Materia triggered the reawakening of the Weapons, but since Sephiroth and Jenova were secured behind that energy barrier, they were inaccessible.

Jenova on her own couldn't conquer the world; she could create powerful illusions, use strong magic and spread mutating diseases, but ultimately she was defeated by the Cetra. Sephiroth, on the other hand, was able to become a tougher cookie, by reason of his unique mixture of Human and Jenova-sourced qualities. He learned from his 'mother', and also learned from the Lifestream, gaining the knowledge of the Cetra and their predecessors, whoever they were. He could do things Jenova couldn't; namely use the Black Materia and interact with the Lifestream.

[§håd0w]

It's been a while since I posted in this thread, so...

This Sephy, who was induced by Jenova Cells, was badly hurt by Zack.

Cloud was the one who threw him into the Lifestream, not Zack. The real Sephiroth is frozen in a Mako Crystal in the Northern Crater.

Hojo continues the experiment, attempting to make clones of Sephiroth using the cells from the organism found 2000 years ago. Cloud is one of them, but bears no mark as he's a failure.

Hojo only conducted experiments on Cloud. Cloud really did exist, he wasn't an actual clone, although the records seem to say he is.

Zack disappears ot gets shot or something, and Tifa's memories of Zack become Cloud's identity.
(She doesn't want to let go of her love for Zack. She's as messed up as everyone else.)

Aeris was the one whom loved Zack. Tifa only went along with Cloud's story. It would have been a little messed up if Tifa were to claim that Cloud's story (at Kalm) was a lie. That's why whenever Cloud paused, you saw a little "..." above Tifa.


And this may be WAY off topic, but at Wallmarket, when you can chose between 3 medicines, do any of them have an effect on the clone in Sector 5?

[Big D]

Hojo only conducted experiments on Cloud. Cloud really did exist, he wasn't an actual clone, although the records seem to say he is.

You're right. The use of the word "clone" in FFVII is somewhat confusing. Hojo tried to 'clone' Sephiroth; that is, he tried to reproduce the success which led to the world's greatest soldier. However, he wanted to achieve this quickly, without having to muck around with embryos. He wanted to make 'another Sephiroth' by injecting Jenova cells into adult Humans. As Cloud says, "Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't all that different from the procedure they use on new members of SOLDIER... they're actually injected with live Jenova cells" or words to that effect.

There were no 'actual clones' of Sephiroth; at least, no genetically identical people. Hojo simply wanted to perfect a way of transforming regular people into fighters of Sephiroth's caliber.

And this may be WAY off topic, but at Wallmarket, when you can chose between 3 medicines, do any of them have an effect on the clone in Sector 5?

There's nothing you can to which has any effect on that particular clone, unfortunately. Those three medicines have but a single use: if you give them to the sick young lady in the toilet at the bar, she'll reward your generosity with a bottle of perfume. The particular fragrance depends upon which medicine you give her. Obtaining the 'Sexy Cologne' probably boosts Cloud's chances of scoring Don Corneo, but that's all.

[PhoenixAsh]

Right... he's got Jenova's essence within him already, and then when he becomes stronger, he gains more of her powers - that's a 'coincidence'? Seems natural to me.

Which would make sense, if Sephiroth hadn't just had his mind destroyed, gone through five years of something that can almost wipe out someone's mind in under a week, if Jenova cells were even hinted to grant psychic abilities.....

He was beginning to bond with the world ("I am becoming one with the Planet..."), and that's where those powers began to emerge. Summoning Meteor wouldn't destroy the Planet per se, rather it'd unleach a huge amount of Spirit Energy (from all the lives lost, and from the energy needed to heal the wound) and that's when he'd amass the remaining energy.

But it's a fair waste of time to be Godlike if theres noone to rule. Besides, becoming a God and world domination was never close to Sephiroth's ambitions, they were Jenova's.

So Jenova allowed herself to get sealed in solid rock for millennia, then let Shinra scientists cut her up for experiments, then let Sephiroth cut off her freakin' head, then just sat around in a tank for five further years, all of her own free will? 'Cause she was bored of world domination or something?

Jenova was trapped, and it took an entire race to accomplish this. None of the chaos began until Jenova's escape. Which she was still highly capable of despite her space travel, dismemberment, beheading, and incarceration.

Sephiroth is the closest thing she has to family; a 'compatible' being who shares her goals and superiority complex, for whatever reason. She can't personally bond with the Planet; she needs Sephiroth for that, but she can join with him - as we see in Bizarro Sephiroth. Besides, if Sephiroth became 'god', he'd be far superior to Jenova.

I highly doubt Jenova would care about a human. Sephiroth was her family, he just happened to be where the people who'd hurt her while she was trapped had put her cells, and he'd been 'benefitting' from her suffering for his entire life.
Jenova not being able to take power from the lifestream is pure assumption. Even if she couldn't and Sephiroth could that doesn't mean she wasn't just using his body to do it, with his mind long dead.

Still, it took quite a few goes - Bizarro Sephiroth, the burgeoning God, put up quite a fight; Safer Sephiroth even moreso. It was only then, when his power had been worn down, when he was reduced to his Human form - Cloud was finally able to beat him, by unleashing five years of pent-up anger and hatred. 'Sides, that's how it always goes in the Final Fantasies - the 'final boss' has to be capable of losing to the heroes (who spend their entire quest gaining strength and magic, by the way) or else the plot wouldn't really mean anything. Would you play a game with an unbeatable final opponent?

It only takes quite a few goes once he's bonded to a fully (almost) regrouped Jenova. Once Jenova was gone, Sephiroth becomes a pushover.

He was the best, a veritable legend in his time. He was always distinct from other Humans, right from when he was a child. He was more than just another Jenova-injected SOLDIER member.

He was the best fighter at the time, that doesn't make him the most able to use psychic ability. His strength only came from having more Jenova influence anyway, so it's hardly a reflection on him.

Well, Cloud had got a lucky shot in and attacked Sephiroth from behind while he was standing, gazing into Jenova's storage case. Sephiroth was wounded, so Cloud was able to overpower him and throw him into the Lifestream. Cloud had one 'power' that Sephiroth lacked - the righteous anger brought on by the destruction of Nibelheim. Sephiroth was oblivious to the concepts of home, family and love; he had no idea of the strength that they provide. Consequently, he completely underestimated Cloud's potential at that time.

I actually don't remember Cloud landing a shot at the top of the stairs, but okay. Even so Sephiroth's wound hardly compares to the big sword that was sticking into Clouds chest when he beat him.
Also I think Sephiroth's little murderous, town burning rampage suggests he was just a little more emotional than you give him credit for.

You can't judge a character's strength and abilities solely from the games battel mechanics, like HP and MP. After all, it's easy to make Yuffie into the game's strongest character, with greater speed, strength and magical ability than anyone else, including Safer Sephiroth. This doesn't mean she's a higher form of life than him or anything.

I'm not, I'm judging it on that, the scene in the reactor, the final one on one....

[Nevermore]

So Aerith loved Zack. I don't understand. I never thought Cloud actually met Zack. From what Sephiroth tells you in the second disc, Tifa's memories of her and Zack fused with Clone Cloud's cells, giving him Zack's identity. Or was that not what it was about when Tifa meets Cloud on the train? Which to my understand, she was supposed to be waiting for Zack. Hell, I always though Cloud had nothing to do with the love triangle...
But that's not right, is it?
I'm too confused. Who the hell's the Sephiroth that burns down Nibelheim then? I thought that was the real one. But he wasn't used by Hojo, so what gave him the idea that he was one of those Mako mutants from the reactor? When he goes nuts?

[§håd0w]

I never thought Cloud actually met Zack.

Cloud knows Zack, but doesn't really know it off hand. When you reach Gongaga, and talk to his parents, he seems confused at first. But when you watch the flashback in the Shinra Mansion on disc 3, it shows more. It almost seems as if Cloud and Zack were best friends.

Who the hell's the Sephiroth that burns down Nibelheim then?

That WAS the REAL Sephiroth. It was later after that, when Cloud runs to the Mako Reactor and finds Tifa, that Sephiroth was "killed." It doesn't clearly say Sehpiroth was killed, so that's sorta up to the player. Cloud was impaled, and lifted Seph up and threw him into the Lifestream. If you don't get it, don't worry. Not many people do.

[PhoenixAsh]

Cloud and Zack were on the Nibelheim mission together, Cloud was one of the basic soldiers. After the fire they were both captured by Hojo and taken down to the basement of the mansion and experimented on Hojo. Eventually they escaped together, but Zack was shot along the way, while Cloud made it to safety, taking both Zack's uniform and Sword (I think). He was very messed up at the time, and his life had been a complete failure, he broke down and his memory blurred with Zack's.
Tifa didn't know Cloud was on the Nibelheim mission because he hid his face from her, but she knew what he described at Kalm wasn't the real version.
Zack was actually Aeris' ex-boyfriend but that has very little to do with the plot.

The real Sephiroth burned down Nibelheim, BECAUSE he found out about his past, although he didn't get the full story. He was experimented on at birth (possibly beforehand) using Jenova. He believed she was a Cetra and his mother, he never finds out who his real parents are (Hojo and Lucrecia).
Sephiroth is then thrown into the lifestream by Cloud, and is taken to the Northern Crater where he stayed for five years.

[Big D]

Which would make sense, if Sephiroth hadn't just had his mind destroyed, gone through five years of something that can almost wipe out someone's mind in under a week, if Jenova cells were even hinted to grant psychic abilities.....

Just where does it even suggest that his mind was dstroyed? He survived becasue he was stronger, becasue of his Jenova assistance. If his mind was 'destroyed', he'd have had a tough time using the Black Materia. Besides, Jenova cells can be seen to impart psychic abilities - the Clones can all hear Sephiroth's voice in their heads, thanks to the presence of Jenova cells within them. Jenova had psychic powers, her powers are present within the dismembered parts of her body, albeit to a lesser extent.

But it's a fair waste of time to be Godlike if theres noone to rule. Besides, becoming a God and world domination was never close to Sephiroth's ambitions, they were Jenova's.

He never intended to kill everything, but didn't really care if large numbers perished. He wouldn't be the first FF villain to (SPOILER)be undeterred by the prospect of universal annihilation. Anyway, it's been oft-stated that Sephiroth was influenced by Jenova, her presence in his body and in his mind. Megalomania was a part of her; it was latent in him.

Jenova was trapped, and it took an entire race to accomplish this. None of the chaos began until Jenova's escape. Which she was still highly capable of despite her space travel, dismemberment, beheading, and incarceration.

Well, her body was able to blob its way out of a metal tank. The presence of Sephiroth's sword - evidently the real thing - in Shinra's office suggests his presence as well.

Jenova not being able to take power from the lifestream is pure assumption. Even if she couldn't and Sephiroth could that doesn't mean she wasn't just using his body to do it, with his mind long dead.

Talk about assumptions...

It only takes quite a few goes once he's bonded to a fully (almost) regrouped Jenova. Once Jenova was gone, Sephiroth becomes a pushover.

Remember SYNTHESIS? That was Jenova on her own, with no Human aspect at all. Piece of cake. Sephiroth, on the other hand, with his neo-Godlike and Jenova powers well on their way, is that much harder to beat. Sure, Jenova's a major part of Bizarro Sephiroth - you can see her head in it, after all - but he's still harder to beat.

As you say, of course, once he's stripped of all his enhancements and special powers, he's just another Human swordsman. That makes perfect sense.

His strength only came from having more Jenova influence anyway, so it's hardly a reflection on him.

Well, Jenova's cels were a part of him; if someone uses steroids, does that mean that they can't really lift heavy weights? Do they have the ability to perform physcial feats, or is it the chemicals in their blood and muscles that have this power?

I actually don't remember Cloud landing a shot at the top of the stairs, but okay. Even so Sephiroth's wound hardly compares to the big sword that was sticking into Clouds chest when he beat him.

Cloud takes a good swing at him and wounds him, it's easy to see. When Cloud confronts him on the bridge, Sephiroth is facing away, limping badly from his wound and carrying his mother's head in one hand. He's kinda preoccupied. He stabbed Cloud in the shoulder without looking, then Cloud overpowered him. Simple as that. It's a symbolic scene, about the strength of love and the Human spirit to overcome adversity.
If Sephiroth was really as weak as you calim, he'd have died in the war or been an anonymous nobody instead of becoming a living legend.

[PhoenixAsh]

Just where does it even suggest that his mind was dstroyed? He survived becasue he was stronger, becasue of his Jenova assistance. If his mind was 'destroyed', he'd have had a tough time using the Black Materia. Besides, Jenova cells can be seen to impart psychic abilities - the Clones can all hear Sephiroth's voice in their heads, thanks to the presence of Jenova cells within them. Jenova had psychic powers, her powers are present within the dismembered parts of her body, albeit to a lesser extent.

Well I would take his turn from efficient killer to a pyromaniac who thinks that a disfigured body is his mother which he proceeds to behead indicates a slight decline in his mental state.
Is 'Sephiroth's' ability to communicate worldwide to Jenova cells really going to be your example of other people's psychic abilities?

He never intended to kill everything, but didn't really care if large numbers perished. He wouldn't be the first FF villain to (SPOILER)be undeterred by the prospect of universal annihilation. Anyway, it's been oft-stated that Sephiroth was influenced by Jenova, her presence in his body and in his mind. Megalomania was a part of her; it was latent in him.

But why would he be involved at all? Without Jenova he had less than human strength, why give him the credit for taking control over their shared body? Plus as I've said, why would Sephiroth choose world domination even if he was in charge?
Why would Jenova help him?

Well, her body was able to blob its way out of a metal tank. The presence of Sephiroth's sword - evidently the real thing - in Shinra's office suggests his presence as well.

It suggests someone powerful. Given the sword pops up in several other places, and we actually KNOW Sephiroth was on another continent at the time, that's a fairly odd statement D.
If by blob it's way out of a metal tank you mean smash it open, kill everyone it came across, assume another form, and leave giant boss monsters in it's wake by remove small body parts, then yes she did.

Talk about assumptions...

I never said that was my belief, I was merely suggesting that you're arguement didn't add to the Sephiroth is in charge theory.

Remember SYNTHESIS? That was Jenova on her own, with no Human aspect at all. Piece of cake. Sephiroth, on the other hand, with his neo-Godlike and Jenova powers well on their way, is that much harder to beat. Sure, Jenova's a major part of Bizarro Sephiroth - you can see her head in it, after all - but he's still harder to beat.

SYNTHESIS wasn't Jenova on her own, it was most of Jenova, and you don't even kill it, it just buys time. Her addition to Sephiroth actually means she is recovering a large amount of her own cells that were taken from her.

Well, Jenova's cels were a part of him; if someone uses steroids, does that mean that they can't really lift heavy weights? Do they have the ability to perform physcial feats, or is it the chemicals in their blood and muscles that have this power?

No in a similar way that I wouldn't assume that someone on steroids had immense mental capacity and the power to control their mind far beyond human level and onto God-like status.

Cloud takes a good swing at him and wounds him, it's easy to see. When Cloud confronts him on the bridge, Sephiroth is facing away, limping badly from his wound and carrying his mother's head in one hand. He's kinda preoccupied. He stabbed Cloud in the shoulder without looking, then Cloud overpowered him. Simple as that. It's a symbolic scene, about the strength of love and the Human spirit to overcome adversity.

I didn't say Sephiroth was weak, I said he wasn't that strong. He was the best SOLDIER, but SOLDIER members were pretty weak back then.
As for Cloud overpowering him, it shows Sephiroth is out of it and weakened at the time, not prepared to cope with the Lifestream.