What's wrong with the human body? Square and 'sluttiness'

[Outsider]

I think it's funny how you people say the same stuff to prove opposed points.

1- Yes, there's some sexuality since the early days... But you must remember, that those games are based on ocidental culture, and mythology, and there's some sexuality in it too. And there's some sexuality in our lives, right? (I guess we're all human beings) So I don't see a problem with that. I remember, for example, that grown-up Rydia's clothes were sparce, just like Terra's and Celes'... If those games had some beautiful graphics it would be "slutty"? I don't think so. I know I would still love those characters.

2- I saw a lot of stuff from FFX-2 (like that pic that i90 posted, in a much larger size) and I think it's slutty. I think that is a little too much for a game, but is it THAT important? You're not obligated to play it, anyway. I know it's not going to stop me from playing it, cuz I think that it can be a good game, who knows? Square still has the power to surprise me. I think that it will suck, but for stronger reasons, not because the way a character dresses.


You people are taking it waaaay too serious.

[eternalshiva]

Originally posted by Outsider
You people are taking it waaaay too serious.

Aaaaaaaamen

[TheAbominatrix]

Originally posted by eternalshiva
Aaaaaaaamen

Oh you're one to talk.

Hehe.

[eternalshiva]

heh That's VOICES, not general looks >.< I obssess over one thing at a time other wise I could be branded crazy. Err, I mean slightly off balance >.<

[The Man]

Originally posted by i90east
The stuff I pulled up on Yuna were so pornographic in nature that I couldn't view it at work (or make this post).

Yes, it's called fan art. I highly doubt any of these truly "pornographic" images were actually official artwork.

You can find some pretty pornographic stuff of Tifa, too. Hell, go to Google with Moderate Safe Search on and do an image search on Tifa. You'll be surprised at what pops up on the first page of results.

Do you think sex everytime you see a nude female? I'm referring to the picture you posted from FF3 now. Have you ever heard of Medusa?

You can see tits in that picture. The whole point of this is that nudity in FF games is nothing new. And I fail to see how her being remotely similar to Medusa (I don't see much of a similarity, to be honest) has anything to do with the fact that it's nudity.

There is nothing sexual in early FF games.

Yes, obviously when Queen Lamia was attempting to seduce Frionel she wasn't actually attempting to have sex with him, nice one :rolleyes2

It amazes me that all this time you thought that Square was thinking of sex every time they put a half nude or full nude figure into an FF game.

Maybe not every time. But practically every time there IS a female enemy in the early FF games, she's portrayed in a saucy position or with little to no clothing on. Sex is hardly ignored in the plotlines of the early FF games either - think of "You licentious howler" from FFVI, for example (which was far more explicit in the Japanese text; and there's plenty more). I also fail to see how, if the early nudity in Squaresoft games can be viewed as non-sexual, then it's possible to see Yuna and Rikku's state of relative undress in anything but the same light. Let's face it, no one would think pure innocent Yuna would dress in such a small amount of clothing, and thus it's the perfect disguise for her.

SHOWING SKIN IS NOT SEXUAL.

Except for Rikku and Yuna, eh? Apparently for them it is.

As for the rest of your points... No. Just no. You're repating yourself over and over. Stop it.

Originally posted by Outsider
I think that it will suck, but for stronger reasons, not because the way a character dresses.

Then you actually have a valid reason for disliking the game, although you haven't yet stated what those reasons are.

To be honest, I think most of the people who think FFX-2 is slutty are the same people who think Tifa is slutty. She's anything but.

[Sefie1999AD]

Let me ask you a question, i90east. If FFX-2 was a 2D game or even something that was made with 8-Bit graphics, would you consider the characters slutty then?

[i90east]

Let me ask you a question, i90east. If FFX-2 was a 2D game or even something that was made with 8-Bit graphics, would you consider the characters slutty then?

Yep, especially if Square used very graphic pictures to market the game. In FFX-2 that's what sticks out the most. The idea that Square is trying to get across to gamers is "the women in FFX-2 are very sexy so it's worth your while to buy this game". Once they break the ice, it may get worse and worse with every new title. Deathjester, when I speak of images that are pornographic in nature, I'm talking about the official ones from Square. They're so suggestive that they're unappropriate to view in a public environment.

The whole point of this is that nudity in FF games is nothing new.

Thanks for stating the obvious.

Yes, obviously when Queen Lamia was attempting to seduce Frionel she wasn't actually attempting to have sex with him, nice one :rolleyes2

That's subject to interpretation and the imagination.

Sex is hardly ignored in the plotlines of the early FF games either - think of "You licentious howler" from FFVI

That slutty behavior was depicted as being bad. I'm with Cyan on that one.

Let's face it, no one would think pure innocent Yuna would dress in such a small amount of clothing, and thus it's the perfect disguise for her.

Now you're trying to come up with excuses for Square's poor choice of clothing for Yuna. Maybe it's time to admit that it's a little rediculous.

Except for Rikku and Yuna, eh? Apparently for them it is.

As for the rest of your points... No. Just no. You're repating yourself over and over. Stop it.

The only reason I'm repating myself is because obviously you're not getting my points. You keep pushing the same issues that I've already resolved. Perhaps you should stop repating yourself, and take a look at what I'm saying.

My goal here is not to argue endlessly with you Deathjester, but to come to a level of understanding. It doesn't matter to me that you like the sluttiness of FFX-2. I'm just hoping that you'll understand where I'm coming from in a logical perspective, not "what a dork, this guy hates sex! wtf is that!? Man, there are some weird people in this world.". There are places where sexual themes belong, and I don't feel that the FF series is one of those places. Love is perfectly fine. It's great to have characters in love with each other, but any implications of sex should be left to the imagination.

Also understand that people don't have to like the sluttiness of FFX-2 just because you do, just in case you thought that with your reasoning you can convince people to love it.

To be honest, I think most of the people who think FFX-2 is slutty are the same people who think Tifa is slutty. She's anything but.

I don't think Tifa is slutty.

[The Man]

Originally posted by i90east
Deathjester, when I speak of images that are pornographic in nature, I'm talking about the official ones from Square. They're so suggestive that they're unappropriate to view in a public environment.

I've seen none of these so-called "official pornographic images" you speak of. Link to them, please. I severely doubt they're official; a lot of fan artists have made their work look quite "official" themselves. Unless you found it on Square's site, I wouldn't trust in it being official at all. There's been so many bs rumours about the game (and FFVII: Advent Children) that have proven to be nothing but a load of crap that I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone tried to pass off nudie pictures as "official."

Also, I fail to see how putting attractive women in less clothing is slutty when the graphics are good and not when the graphics aren't. Unless you're simply biased against realistic graphics, which it appears that you are.

That's subject to interpretation and the imagination.

Now you're just being ridiculous. How could it possibly be open to interpretation? She's trying to seduce Frionel; the definition of seduction is to attempt to get someone to engage in sexual activity. That's sex. S E X. I don't see how it could possibly be interepreted in any other manner.

That slutty behavior was depicted as being bad.

Hardly; the whole thing was a joke. The game doesn't specify one way or the other whether such things are "good" or "bad," either. Cyan doesn't like it; Sabin thinks he's over-reacting and finds the whole event funny. Gau just stands to the side. I fail to see how the game draws any conclusions one way or the other.

Now you're trying to come up with excuses for Square's poor choice of clothing for Yuna.

No. I'm not trying to make excuses. That's the whole reason she dresses up in less clothing. Square themselves have all but said that.

The only reason I'm repating myself is because obviously you're not getting my points.

I'm getting your points perfectly, and your reasoning is highly flawed, in my view. You yourself should take a bit of your own advice, since you're automatically dismissing all evidence thrown contrary to your point. I actually had very little of a view one way or the other when I came into this thread, and after reading both sides' arguments with an open mind I have to say I agree far more with Rand's side than with you. If you opened your mind a bit you might find yourself viewing some things a bit differently, and that would hardly be a bad thing, would it?

My goal here is not to argue endlessly with you Deathjester, but to come to a level of understanding. It doesn't matter to me that you like the sluttiness of FFX-2.

My whole point is that it's barely any "sluttier" than any of the earlier FF games are, but since you're repeatedly denying all evidence thrown at you, I guess it's impossible to convince you of anything.

You still haven't answered, by the way, why it's sexual for Rikku and Yuna to show skin, but not for anyone else to show skin.

[i90east]

You're missing the mark. Let me help.

I've seen none of these so-called "official pornographic images" you speak of.

I guess you don't understand the meaning of "pornographic in nature". It doesn't nesseccarily mean nudity.

Also, I fail to see how putting attractive women in less clothing is slutty when the graphics are good and not when the graphics aren't.

I never said that graphics had anything to do with it. In fact, I just finished saying that the characters would still be slutty in a 2D game, which would be amplified by the conditions I mentioned above.

I don't see how it could possibly be interepreted in any other manner.

Kids arn't going to interpret it that way are they? Think about it. It's not extremely obvious what the ulterior motives are. This is minor compared to the sluttiness of FFX-2.

I fail to see how the game draws any conclusions one way or the other.

Well then your argument doesn't carry any weight. It's neutral. It only acknowledges the existance of sluttiness.

No. I'm not trying to make excuses. That's the whole reason she dresses up in less clothing. Square themselves have all but said that.

Well if that's really the whole reason, what a pity. They can do better than that. They conveiniently came up with that to make Yuna slutty. It could have been easily avoided, but no... that's what they wanted.

You still haven't answered, by the way, why it's sexual for Rikku and Yuna to show skin, but not for anyone else to show skin.

"What have I been saying the last 3 posts now? THAT SHOWING SKIN IS NOT SEXUAL."

"Gods and goddeses are often depicted as being nude or semi-nude. Just look at art. You see it all the time. Is it anything sexual? No. This applies to Terra as well. Nowhere does the game hint at sexual tendencies for Terra. I mean heck, Terra was in esper mode in front of a bunch of kids. Do you think Square was thinking sex? There's nothing wrong with the human body until it turns into a sex act. I guess your perception is too shallow to see that."

"There's a difference between dressing slutty and dressing to be comfortable (innocent clothing). Dressing slutty doesn't just mean showing a lot of skin either."

If you opened your mind a bit you might find yourself viewing some things a bit differently, and that would hardly be a bad thing, would it?

Ah, it's the ignorance argument. Tell me then, why should I think that the sluttiness of FFX-2 is a good thing? Why should I like the fact that it's Square's #1 marketing tactic? Gee, isn't that a step forward for our society? Shouldn't we all just enjoy sluttiness and find it to be a positive thing? Shouldn't we expose our kids to this stuff? Hmm, gee let's consider these things. Am I being open minded yet?

My whole point is that it's barely any "sluttier" than any of the earlier FF games are, but since you're repeatedly denying all evidence thrown at you, I guess it's impossible to convince you of anything.

What evidence? A couple of slutty sprites in a couple of old FF games? Oh yeah, that makes all FFs just as slutty as FFX-2, complete with big flashy pictures! :laugh:

[The Man]

Originally posted by i90east
I guess you don't understand the meaning of "pornographic in nature". It doesn't nesseccarily mean nudity.

pornography
1. Sexually explicit pictures, writing, or other material whose primary purpose is to cause sexual arousal.
2. The presentation or production of this material.
3. Lurid or sensational material: “Recent novels about the Holocaust have kept Hitler well offstage [so as] to avoid the... pornography of the era” (Morris Dickstein).

Do you honestly believe the primary purpose of FFX-2 is to cause sexual arousal? Because I certainly don't.

I never said that graphics had anything to do with it. In fact, I just finished saying that the characters would still be slutty in a 2D game, which would be amplified by the conditions I mentioned above.

Bah, I misread part of your post. Sorry about that.

Kids arn't going to interpret it that way are they? Think about it. It's not extremely obvious what the ulterior motives are. This is minor compared to the sluttiness of FFX-2.

Kids are going to understand what it is if they actually understand what sex is and why people have it. Most kids don't understand that, though. And I fail to see, if they aren't able to draw conclusions about Lamia wanting to have sex with Frionel, why they'll think sexual thoughts about the characters in FFX-2. Actually, even if they DO understand what Lamia wants to do with Frionel, it's entirely possible that they won't think anything about the characters of FFX-2, since to find them sexually attractive, you'd have to actually have awakened hormones. You can't tell me that a six-year-old kid actually entertains sexual fantasies about women just because they're not wearing much clothing.

Well then your argument doesn't carry any weight.

Actually it does, since you were claiming that the game was vehemently against the woman's actions and I was claiming that it wasn't.

Well if that's really the whole reason, what a pity. They can do better than that.

I'm pretty sure it's not the whole reason. Keep in mind that Yuna is also really (SPOILER)an Al Bhed, and the Al Bhed don't wear much clothing to start with. By carrying a gun and the like, she's really getting far more in touch with her heritage. To be honest, I hardly see it as far-fetched at all.

"What have I been saying the last 3 posts now? THAT SHOWING SKIN IS NOT SEXUAL."

"There's a difference between dressing slutty and dressing to be comfortable (innocent clothing). Dressing slutty doesn't just mean showing a lot of skin either."

Well, if you don't think they're slutty because they're showing skin, then what makes them sluts? The fact that they're not wearing much clothing? That's the same thing as showing skin. If they're not slutty for showing skin in your viewpoint, then why, exactly, are they slutty? I haven't seen you explain that yet.

[Agent Proto]

OOC:

Originally posted by i90east Ah, it's the ignorance argument. Tell me then, why should I think that the sluttiness of FFX-2 is a good thing? Why should I like the fact that it's Square's #1 marketing tactic? Gee, isn't that a step forward for our society? Shouldn't we all just enjoy sluttiness and find it to be a positive thing? Shouldn't we expose our kids to this stuff? Hmm, gee let's consider these things. Am I being open minded yet? What evidence? A couple of slutty sprites in a couple of old FF games? Oh yeah, that makes all FFs just as slutty as FFX-2, complete with big flashy pictures! :laugh: Hey, does mocking have anything with proving your point? Please stop it. I don't really care if it's helping you prove your point with Deathjester, it's immature. I'm not really appreciating this 'behavior,' though I'm not blaming you for being like this. Just tone up a bit, and quit the mocking. It's not appropriate as it may create further trouble. Thanks and I hope you'll cooperate. Keep up the good work, but quit the immaturity in your debates.

[Garland]

If Square clothed Rikku and Yuna in skimpy outfits for marketing purposes, then kudos to them. Perhaps it is 'slutty' as people have put it. However, don't pretend it's unusual. Let's face it: for as long as women have fought battles in videogames, whether they be fighting games, rpg's or anything else, they've done that fighting with large breasts, and in skimpy thongs. It's the nature of videogames. One shouldn't expect videogame heroines to cloth themselves like Puritan Princess Toadstools.

Square isn't selling out by putting its females in their underpants. It's following the norm. Square's not doing anything different than it has in the past. The first FF heroine was Maria of FF2, and she wore a skimpy bathing suit and showed cleavage when wounded. FF4's two ladies wore the same, as did the ladies in FF6. I don't remember what the girls of FF5 wore. In FF7, Tifa wore a miniskirt (that might as well have been a belt, it was so thin). Yuffie wore just as little. FF9 has Garnet prancing around in a skin tight spandex bodysuit. Rikku in FF10 also dressed scantilly, and Lulu is well known for the sexy nature of her outfit.

In nearly every FF, the females have been dressed sexily. FFX-2 isn't going overboard. It's not even unusual. Sex sells. When you think of the percentage of sexy women in feature roles in videogames in general, it should make you question why FFX-2 is being held to such a different standard. It's denying everything that videogames have been about since the dawn of the 8-bit NES.

[The Man]

Originally posted by Garland
I don't remember what the girls of FF5 wore.

They wore a tremendous number of different outfits, most of them somewhat skimpy (if memory serves, Faris' Dancer is particularly skimpy). You missed FF6, in which the characters also didn't really wear much; in Terra's victory stance, it practically looks like she's not wearing a top, and even when she's not prancing for joy she's not really wearing much. Celes is dressed in just as little; she might as well be wearing a bathing suit bikini and shorts for as much as I can see her wearing.

And I agree with you 100%.

[i90east]

However, don't pretend it's unusual.

Square has never used sex as a main point for selling it's games.

Let's face it: for as long as women have fought battles in videogames, whether they be fighting games, rpg's or anything else, they've done that fighting with large breasts, and in skimpy thongs.

Really? Name off some 8 bit and 16 bit games that contain exactly what you described. Women in melee combat need to wear athletic clothing that allows them to move around with a high level of dexterity, which is not slutty at all. You might be mixing that up with female characters that are made out to be slutty, complete with butt shots, excessively large breasts (artificially large) and the like.

One shouldn't expect videogame heroines to cloth themselves like Puritan Princess Toadstools.

I agree, but sex is usually not the motive behind this thinking.

In nearly every FF, the females have been dressed sexily.

This shows how shallow your worldview is. Don't think sex every time you see a female. Man, I'd hate to be a female in this world. Everytime I would dress comfortably, most guys would be thinking sex. Pitiful.

in Terra's victory stance, it practically looks like she's not wearing a top

I couldn't find a picture of her victory sprite. When I get home from work I'll check it out. From what I remember, it's just a graphical coincidence due to the general art and limited graphical capability of the sprites. She's not topless, so having a topless victory dance wouldn't make sense. Obvously that's not what Square meant. If it was more obvious and even intentional, it would have been censored. It's a subtile thing and needs to be interpreted in the way you're seeing it. I have never thought of Terra's victory dance as looking like she's topless. Her arms are large on the victory sprite. Perhaps that's where the confusion is. The point here is, just because it can be interpreted as a topless dance doesn't mean it is.

[ZeZipster]

[q=Garland]Square isn't selling out by putting its females in their underpants. It's following the norm. [/q]

You can't actually believe that can you? FFX-2 is the most obscene thing Square has EVER come up with. Let's compare the original to the sequel.

FFX

Had 4 male characters, that's 4/7 more than half.
Yuna wears not so exposing cloths.
Yuna uses summoning system.
Through-out entire game, no one changed cloths once.
Game did not have an active battle system.
Had 1 ending.
No missions.

Now, let's look at FFX-2

Has 0 male characters, that's 0/3 - 100% all female party.
Introduces new character, who is female.
Yuna uses guns.
Yuna steals Lara Crofts out-fit and puts Jechts symbol on it
Every time they enter a battle they change cloths.
Has an active battle system
Has multiple endings
Missions.

Quite the transition. So you lose all male characters, Yuna (The widow Yuna, you know the one that lost her true love) decides she needs to show some ass, also that guns are the closest thing to summoning huge beasts, and every time they enter a battle they change outfits. 3 chicks wandering around in skimpy out-fits changing cloths every battle. Yeah Squares just being their normal selves alright. They make crap like that all the time. Wait... No actually they have NEVER made an all girl FF. You people have got to face the facts this game is made for it's sex appeal. If you think there is nothing wrong with that then you obvisoully aren't a fan of Final Fantasy. I feel betrayed by Square and really angry at people who are claiming that they needed a change. Square made good RPGs, it was their forte. The fact of the matter is, if any one didn't like that they could go buy an action game.