Time travel and the R=U theories (MASSIVE FRICKEN SPOILER WARNING)

[DJZen]

Actually, Sir Bahamut, that does make more sense now. Thanks.

[Sir Bahamut]

Continued from another thread, it's more ontopic here:

Just as Fire spells unleash a controlled amount of fire in a specified place, Time Compression affects space-time, causing a large amount of time to be drawn together into a single point in time. Ultimecia was trying to bring all of time, or at least a large portion of it, together so that she could absorb the powers of all sorceresses throughout history, but fortunately it didn't come to that. Time Compression is just a very powerful magic spell; but where the regular elemental and non-elemental spells manipulate matter and energy, Time Compression manipulates time. The spell has to be used in two different, distant points of time; if there is not enough intervening time encompassed by the initial casting, then then it won't be effective. The spell needs to work in two ways, by going into the past and into the future, in order to compress a sufficient amount of time.
Some of this is explained directly in the game, some of it is conjecture which fits the facts well enough for me.

Firstly, I know what TC does in a nutshell. It compresses all of time into a single point.
It's like time being a film, consisting of an infite amount of slides.
TC is like putting all the slides on top of eachother and then shining a light through. The result would be one slide containing everything of all the other slides, complete chaos, where no one could live.

Do you agree with me that all of time is compressed? It seems most logical. After all, we are told that "past, present anbd future will be compressed", and "past present and future" seem to refer to the general terms, no?
Nothing implies that it should only compress a small amount, so I think it is safe to assume it means ALL of time.

We also know it was activated in the far past where Ultimecia is sent.
The reason for this is never revealed.
You speculate that she needed to be in two different positions, but why?
Your theory here implies that only a bit of the line of time is compressed. What makes you think only a small bit is compressed?
Also, yours says that you first need a big space in time between the two points you cast it at, then the spell reaches into the past and future. Is that the past of future of both events, or only the past of what we see as the past and vice versa?

Lots of speculation as you can see, and lots of unanswered questions. But the best is yet to come:

You see, Squall and Co get to Ultimecias world by travelling THROUGH time compression. Once they're out of it, they are in Ultimecias world.
It is made clear that TC has not been completed.

How does Squall and Co get to this place THROUGH TC when it lies OUTSIDE TC and TC hasn't been completed yet?
This is really a huge mystery.
To demonstrate:

A – B – C – D – E

B is when Ultimecia casts the spell. C is Squalls present. D is Ultimecias present (i.e. where you fight her), A is all events prior to B and E is all events following D.

This line is a bit impractical for making figures, so we’ll “simplify” it a bit.

A – B – C – D – E – F – G

D is where Ultimecia casts the spell. E is Squalls present. F is Ultimecias present. B and C are the mirrored events of E and F by D (meaning there’s the same distance between C and D, as there is between D and E and so on and so forth). A is all events prior to B, and G all events following F.
Now we have a much simpler line to deal with.

Firstly, one could say TC starts at the outer boundaries, and is pushed inwards like that:

A – B – C – D – E – F – G --> AB – C – D – E – FG --> ABC – D – EFG --> ABCDEFG = X(compressed time).

When E and F are connected, giving Squall access to Ultimecias time, they should for one be inside TC, and two, TC should be completed within a fraction of a second, considering how fast the rest of time was compressed. Even if it gets slower the closer to finish it gets, it should still be finished very soon after you arrive.
This contradicts the ingame facts.

Secondly, one could say TC starts inwards:

A – B – C – D – E – F – G --> A - B - CDE - F -G --> A - BCDEF - G -->
ABCDEFG = X.

Here, the problem of why TC is not yet finished is explained, as A and G consists of millions of years probably.
However, BCDEF is definitely part of TC, which contradicts that you should be outside of TC.

There aren't any other obvious pictures that spring to mind, so it all seems as if Square decided to go for Cool Factor over Logic, and make TC out to be something completely unexplainable(as made clear by Squall admitting to not understanding it).

[Big D]

[q=Sir Bahamut]We also know it was activated in the far past where Ultimecia is sent.
The reason for this is never revealed.
[/q]It's explained clearly by either Edea or Odine, Edea I believe. In order for the spell to take effect, it has to be activated at two different points in time, a certain distance apart. So, she activates it in her own time, then uses her machine and Ellone's power to go back as far as possible and use the spell again. Imagine time as being like a pond. Drop a stone in one point, and you get ripples. Those ripples won't reach the other side, though; they'll just reach the side they're closest to. So, you drop another stone - i.e; cast another spell - at the other side, which represents the past for this purpose. The ripples now extend across both sides of the pond; the spells' influence goes far enough to set off the cascade that'll make time compress. When a building's being demolished, two explosives can do the job, but not if they're in adjacent rooms. They need to be far enough apart that the entire structure is affected. That's my interpretation of how time compression works, based on the brief expanation given in the game.[q=Sir Bahamut]Do you agree with me that all of time is compressed? It seems most logical. After all, we are told that "past, present anbd future will be compressed", and "past present and future" seem to refer to the general terms, no?
Nothing implies that it should only compress a small amount, so I think it is safe to assume it means ALL of time.[/q]As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't make a big difference. However, time and space are infinite; so to compress all time in all places would take infinite energy, which is not possible. Even if it's "done by magic". Magic is a manipulation of energy, so it couldn't have that kind of effect. Ultimecia's goal is to absorb the power from every sorceress who ever lived; that's her reason for compressing time. It's also explained if you cast Scan on Ultiimecia at a particular point during the final battle. Thus, she'd need only to compress time around her world, going back far enough to encompass the entirety of human history, thus ensnaring every sorceress.

You see, Squall and Co get to Ultimecias world by travelling THROUGH time compression. Once they're out of it, they are in Ultimecias world.
It is made clear that TC has not been completed.How does Squall and Co get to this place THROUGH TC when it lies OUTSIDE TC and TC hasn't been completed yet?
This is really a huge mystery.

Once again, a clear explanation can be found through a combination of in-game facts and logical conjecture. The team are able to travel to the future while time is compressing, yes. They do that through their own willpower, controlling their passage the way they would a magic spell. Time compression is a form of magic, so this is perfectly logical. It's also consistent with Laguna's instructions. By traversing the beginnings of the compression, they reached Ultimecia's time - where she unleashed the time compression spell. It's possible that the effects of time compression get stronger in the past, and take a while to "catch up" to the future; this'd explain why reality was severely distorted in their own time, but things are slightly less abnormal in Ultimecia's time (NB: The Ragnarok airship and the CC group both moved through time and space, to a different place in the world, during time compression. There's clearly a bit of disruption to Ultimecia's world). But then, during the final battle, time compression progresses. The process is nearing completion when Ultimecia's in her final form; reality has almost entirely dissipated. It is undone when she is defeated and her control over the process is disrupted. Time then de-compresses, and history is largely restored, except for Squall's panic and indecisiveness temporarily returning him to an earlier point in time.

The process of time compression is not a "huge mystery", nor is it "completely unexplainable". Of course, if you choose not to believe a particular explanation, that's up to you. However, you'll accomplish nothing by playing games and then saying, "Haha! This makes no sense at all! It's not spelled out in the course of the game, and if anyone has a theory, I can just say that their theory's not in the game either! This proves that the game is stupid and makes no sense!"
Such thinking is pointless. A good story doesn't assume that the audience is stupid, that they need every detail spelled out monosyllabically. Conjecture, theory and personal opinion can add colour and detail, just like the R=U theory.

[Trumpet Thief]

chaos: Now I am in total dillema. Both of you have a great argument that truly makes me confused... Even though I think that everything points to Rinoa being Ultemicia, I am now beginning to ponder on this ever so more...

Rubedo: Although, about the Griever argument, I have heard in many areas that Squall's ring is supposed to represent a GF, Griever, that already exists. Or was it made up from Squall's mind? Eh... who knows?

[Sir Bahamut]

It's explained clearly by either Edea or Odine, Edea I believe. In order for the spell to take effect, it has to be activated at two different points in time, a certain distance apart. So, she activates it in her own time, then uses her machine and Ellone's power to go back as far as possible and use the spell again. Imagine time as being like a pond. Drop a stone in one point, and you get ripples. Those ripples won't reach the other side, though; they'll just reach the side they're closest to. So, you drop another stone - i.e; cast another spell - at the other side, which represents the past for this purpose. The ripples now extend across both sides of the pond; the spells' influence goes far enough to set off the cascade that'll make time compress. When a building's being demolished, two explosives can do the job, but not if they're in adjacent rooms. They need to be far enough apart that the entire structure is affected. That's my interpretation of how time compression works, based on the brief expanation given in the game.

No, it's not explained clearly by Edea or Odine or both. This is all they have to say about it.

Edeas information: "It's time magic. Past, present, and
future get compressed."

Odines information: "Dr. Odine: You vant to go outside!? You vant to fisticuffs!? Ok, we
continue ze story! Let's see... There is only one way to defeat
Ultimecia. You must kill her in ze future. There iz nothing we can do
unless we go to ze future. There is no way to jump to ze future under
normal circumstances. But there iz still a way! It iz because Sorceress
Ultimecia plans to compress time. Compressing time with magic... Vat good
will it do for ze sorceress to compress time? There may be many
reasons, but it doesn't matter. Let's just figure out vat Ultimecia iz
up to. In order for Ultimecia to exist in this time, she must take over
ze body of a sorceress from ze present. But ze machine must have a
limit. Ultimecia probably needs to go back further in time to achieve
time compression. Only Ellone can take her back further into ze past.
Zat iz why she iz desperately seeking her."

As you can see, neither know anything about why she has to be in the past to activate it, nor exactly what it does.

Your own theory about the ripples works though, if one assumes she casts it at two places.

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't make a big difference. However, time and space are infinite; so to compress all time in all places would take infinite energy, which is not possible. Even if it's "done by magic". Magic is a manipulation of energy, so it couldn't have that kind of effect. Ultimecia's goal is to absorb the power from every sorceress who ever lived; that's her reason for compressing time. It's also explained if you cast Scan on Ultiimecia at a particular point during the final battle. Thus, she'd need only to compress time around her world, going back far enough to encompass the entirety of human history, thus ensnaring every sorceress.

Again, I need to stress that her motive is NOT explained, not even when you scan her. I have scanned all her forms and it makes no mention of that.
The whole gaining power thing is based off what the tutorial says "may" happen during time compression, nothing else.

But I'll agree it makes for a good motive, which can fit in with ripple theory nicely.

Once again, a clear explanation can be found through a combination of in-game facts and logical conjecture. The team are able to travel to the future while time is compressing, yes. They do that through their own willpower, controlling their passage the way they would a magic spell. Time compression is a form of magic, so this is perfectly logical. It's also consistent with Laguna's instructions. By traversing the beginnings of the compression, they reached Ultimecia's time - where she unleashed the time compression spell. It's possible that the effects of time compression get stronger in the past, and take a while to "catch up" to the future; this'd explain why reality was severely distorted in their own time, but things are slightly less abnormal in Ultimecia's time (NB: The Ragnarok airship and the CC group both moved through time and space, to a different place in the world, during time compression. There's clearly a bit of disruption to Ultimecia's world). But then, during the final battle, time compression progresses. The process is nearing completion when Ultimecia's in her final form; reality has almost entirely dissipated. It is undone when she is defeated and her control over the process is disrupted. Time then de-compresses, and history is largely restored, except for Squall's panic and indecisiveness temporarily returning him to an earlier point in time.

1) About controlling their passage, that is definitely what Laguna says. However, they do not know WHEN Ultimecias reign is, only that is a "many generations" away, a term so ambiguous it would be like randomly jumping off a train in the time it takes to travel a kilometer, and hoping that you just might hit that crucial 1 meter big area you want to get to.

No, all they do is decide WHERE to head for; Edeas Orphanage.
They then are mysteriously enough dropped off at the exact right time.

This either implies they had no choice but to stop riding time compression then, or that they got pretty damn lucky, or that they got there for an unexplainable reason.

If you argue that Squalls time and Ultimecias time had been compressed together, meaning they didn't actually time travel, you still get a problem, as explained in the next point.

2) You missed my point I'm afraid. Here, perhaps this makes it easier to understand:

The reason they are able to get to Ultimecias time is because TC affects time from their own time to Ultimecias time(and much more of course). This allows them to travel by willpower through time compression.
IF TC had not yet linked both times, it would be impossible for them to get to that time.

Now, TC is actually pushing all of time together, so would you agree that their two times are linked because TC pushes them together?
That would seem to be the most logical assumption, don't you think?

This leads us to creating the diagrams you kindly ignored(or thouyght irrelevant, whichever):

---

A – B – C – D – E – F – G

D is where Ultimecia casts the spell. E is Squalls present. F is Ultimecias present. B and C are the mirrored events of E and F by D (meaning there’s the same distance between C and D, as there is between D and E and so on and so forth). A is all events prior to B, and G all events following F.
Now we have a much simpler line to deal with.

Firstly, one could say TC starts at the outer boundaries, and is pushed inwards like that:

A – B – C – D – E – F – G --> AB – C – D – E – FG --> ABC – D – EFG --> ABCDEFG = X(compressed time).

When E and F are connected, giving Squall access to Ultimecias time, they should for one be inside TC, and two, TC should be completed within a fraction of a second, considering how fast the rest of time was compressed. Even if it gets slower the closer to finish it gets, it should still be finished very soon after you arrive.
This contradicts the ingame facts.

Secondly, one could say TC starts inwards:

A – B – C – D – E – F – G --> A - B - CDE - F -G --> A - BCDEF - G -->
ABCDEFG = X.

Here, the problem of why TC is not yet finished is explained, as A and G consists of millions of years probably.
However, BCDEF is definitely part of TC, which contradicts that you should be outside of TC.

---

Please do try and make your own model based on your ripples theory, but I think you'll find the same problems arise. Either Squall is obviously fighting Ultimecia inside an area of TC, or TC should already be completed(or both).

That is the mystery. That is the thing which makes TC so unexplainable. The games tells us so little about, and on top of that, two of the facts we get even seem to contradict eachother.

The process of time compression is not a "huge mystery", nor is it "completely unexplainable". Of course, if you choose not to believe a particular explanation, that's up to you. However, you'll accomplish nothing by playing games and then saying, "Haha! This makes no sense at all! It's not spelled out in the course of the game, and if anyone has a theory, I can just say that their theory's not in the game either! This proves that the game is stupid and makes no sense!"
Such thinking is pointless. A good story doesn't assume that the audience is stupid, that they need every detail spelled out monosyllabically. Conjecture, theory and personal opinion can add colour and detail, just like the R=U theory.

Excuse me, but in the future, could you please keep your ridiculous, condescending assumptions to yourself, because it only makes YOU look like the idiot here.

Firstly, assuming that I merely played the game and then immediately declared TC as unexplainable is ridiculous, considering I've spent the last year arguing over Time Loops, R=U and TC in topics reaching close to 3000 posts before concluding that it was in fact too mysterious to be explainable.

I thought long and hard, and discussed it with many others(who thankfully didn't jump to baseless assumptions and accusations all the time) before realizing the things I posted above, which I will be waiting for you to make fit into your theory.

Secondly, your telling me that "they [don't] need every detail spelled out" and "conjecture, theory and personal opinion can colour the game" is also ridiculous, considering that I have been arguing FOR R=U for the last year, writing several papers on it, and getting a final paper up on the internet.
You saying that "I can just say your theory isn't in the game" is then espcially ridiculous.

Thirdly and finally, I have not said "this game now makes no sense". All I am saying is that TC appears to be one of those things we were never meant to understand properly, and that I personally think Square decided to go for Cool Factor over Logic.
They even get Squall to say how he could never grasp it.

TC is only a part of the game, and I never stated it makes the entire game stupid.

So please, stop jumping to ridiculous assumptions, and rather concentrate on understanding my actual arguments concerning TC, instead of my character, which is quite frankly irrelevant to the issue.

PS: Forgot to mention in all this, that my own theory is that TC is like two waves being sent off in opposite directions from where it is cast. Once the waves reach the end of the lines(in opposite ends of course), they fall back on eachother, bringing all of time crushing down with them.
Squall and Co ride the initial wave to get to Ultimecias world.

However, I still think it's a unexlainable mystery. My own theory contains it's own flaws anyway.

[Big D]

[q=Sir Bahamut]As you can see, neither know anything about why she has to be in the past to activate it, nor exactly what it does.
[/q]Odine: "Ultimecia probably needs to go back further in time to achieve time compression."

That makes it pretty clear that a certain amount of time must be encompassed by the spell.

Edea: "Past, present, andfuture get compressed."

That explains what it does, in simplistic terms.

Again, I need to stress that her motive is NOT explained, not even when you scan her. I have scanned all her forms and it makes no mention of that.
The whole gaining power thing is based off what the tutorial says "may" happen during time compression, nothing else.

I can't be sure, but I believe this info is obtained if you scan the "human half" of Ultimecia's final form, the portion from which she draws the Apolcalyse spells. It describes her as being transformed in order to absorb the power of all sorceresses, or words to that effect. The info is definitely there, I just don't recall exactly where.

No, all they do is decide WHERE to head for; Edeas Orphanage.
They then are mysteriously enough dropped off at the exact right time.

This either implies they had no choice but to stop riding time compression then, or that they got pretty damn lucky, or that they got there for an unexplainable reason.

Of course. They had a goal in mind - to stay together, to confront Ultimecia. As Laguna explained, their combined wills - their "belief in one another" - enabled them to get where they wanted to go. Another possibility is that they ended up at Ultimecia's time because it represents the origin of time compression, where Ultimecia cast her end of the spell. Either way, the game suggests that compressed time is a flexible medium, something that can - to a limited extent - be shaped and moulded by the human mind. Ultimecia's plan was to absorb power out of the compressed mess; Squall ended up in a barren, empty wasteland because of his own "empty" thoughts of loneliness, when he tried to traverse compressed time alone.

Either Squall is obviously fighting Ultimecia inside an area of TC, or TC should already be completed(or both).

That much should be obvious - the gradual disintegration of the "playing field" during the final battle suggests as much. For the final fight, the world is nearly empty - just Ultimecia's transformed state, the party, and an endless void. The "lump" of seriously compressed time - the one that Squall and co traverse - seems to encompass the immediate past, and progressively less of the future. Small parts of Squall's time are thrust into the future; that time is partly under the influence of time compression.

I've spent the last year arguing over Time Loops, R=U and TC in topics reaching close to 3000 posts before concluding that it was in fact too mysterious to be explainable.

Your conclusions are entirely up to you; they aren't
authoritative or proven fact. If you believe it, then that's all well and good. I have my own ideas, and they make time compression completely explainable and understandable, insofar as is necessary and possible, to satisfy my own ends. The fact that you disagree makes no difference to the reliability of my beliefs, and vice versa. My explanations are adequate for me, so I'm satisfied. There are no contradictions or fallacies in the process as I see it.

It's handy to remember that the full workings of time are not understood by anyone on this Earth, so it's not particularly easy for anyone to state that a particular temporal theory is manifestly "wrong". Goodness only knows what would happen if a particular portion of time were to be compressed; it gets even more uncertain if you factor in the inherent unpredictability of a human consciousness driving the process from two distinct points in history. That could easily account for why the past becomes an indistinct jumble, why people end up in places and times they want to be as a result. It's plausible, even though there's no factual data either in our world or in the game. It's "not improbable", basically. So it works for me.

They even get Squall to say how he could never grasp it.

That's logical. Squall's a 17-year-old, with an education that's basically all about military matters. It'd make no sense for him to make sense of time compression, if you see what I mean. It also means that Square don't have to formulate a convoluted, and therefore more likely to be flawed, full explanation for the process. "Discrepancies" in personal theories can be accounted for by the anomalies of human nature, the mysterious properties of time itself, and what happens when those collide.

the things I posted above, which I will be waiting for you to make fit into your theory.

Makes it sound like your theory is fact, if I'm obliged to account for it. I'm not. Your ideas, about the rate of compression, the level and evenness of that compression, are necessary to your theory, not mine. Both are equally valid views.

"conjecture, theory and personal opinion can colour the game" is also ridiculous

How on Earth is it "ridiculous"? What we take away with us after finishing a story is based largely on how we respond to the text - the characters, the plot, all of it. What we each draw from it is entirely unique. How we interpret the work is up to the individual; some see allegory where others see irony. We "colour" the stories we experience by taking our own perspective on them. That's one of the best things about fiction, in my opinion.

It is also why views on time compression are fine by me, and yours are fine by you, and neither of us needs to be convinced of the other's viewpoint. I understand your argument, and your reasons for believing it. I simply don't share your views.
Personally, I enjoy exchanging opinions and theories, learning about what others believe and why. Even when I don't agree. That's a significant reason behind my coming here.

I enjoy explaining what I think, too. Backing up a theory and comparing it to those of others is a rewarding process. However, it's handy to remember that, with a source text that doesn't give everything away, few things can be dismissed out-of-hand.

However, I still think it's a unexlainable mystery.

I, on the other hand, think it is explainable.

That's all there is to it, really - a simple difference of opinion, no-one provably right or wrong. What matters is what we each choose to believe. That's why I find it futile when people get fired up over these kinds of theories, when really the ultimate answer is what we make of it ourselves. Just like that infernal "Sephiroth or Jenova?" argument in FFVII

[Sir Bahamut]

Odine: "Ultimecia probably needs to go back further in time to achieve time compression."

That makes it pretty clear that a certain amount of time must be encompassed by the spell.

Edea: "Past, present, andfuture get compressed."

That explains what it does, in simplistic terms.

What I meant was that they have no idea why she needs to go further back in time.
Odine merely states it, Ultimecias doesn't even mention it.

I can't be sure, but I believe this info is obtained if you scan the "human half" of Ultimecia's final form, the portion from which she draws the Apolcalyse spells. It describes her as being transformed in order to absorb the power of all sorceresses, or words to that effect. The info is definitely there, I just don't recall exactly where.

No, scanning says that she's transformed so as to "compress time".
I'm almost 100% certain about that, but I'll try and check.

Of course. They had a goal in mind - to stay together, to confront Ultimecia. As Laguna explained, their combined wills - their "belief in one another" - enabled them to get where they wanted to go. Another possibility is that they ended up at Ultimecia's time because it represents the origin of time compression, where Ultimecia cast her end of the spell. Either way, the game suggests that compressed time is a flexible medium, something that can - to a limited extent - be shaped and moulded by the human mind. Ultimecia's plan was to absorb power out of the compressed mess; Squall ended up in a barren, empty wasteland because of his own "empty" thoughts of loneliness, when he tried to traverse compressed time alone.

But I just don't see how they could will themselves to Ultimecias time when they had no idea when that time was.

The other possibility is true, yes.

That much should be obvious - the gradual disintegration of the "playing field" during the final battle suggests as much. For the final fight, the world is nearly empty - just Ultimecia's transformed state, the party, and an endless void. The "lump" of seriously compressed time - the one that Squall and co traverse - seems to encompass the immediate past, and progressively less of the future. Small parts of Squall's time are thrust into the future; that time is partly under the influence of time compression.

My point was that Odine makes it clear that you will LEAVE TC, meaning you are not fighting Ultimecia inside TC.

And if their two times have to be compressed together for them to get there, they certainly ARE fighting her inside a small region of TC.

I simply cannot agree with your suggestion that "small parts of Squalls time are thrust into the future" because it just seems like such a bland excuse for how they got there IMO.

Anyway, I personally can't see HOW small parts would be thrust to the future unless they were becoming compressed together, which agains brings up that fatal flaw.

Your conclusions are entirely up to you; they aren't
authoritative or proven fact. If you believe it, then that's all well and good. I have my own ideas, and they make time compression completely explainable and understandable, insofar as is necessary and possible, to satisfy my own ends. The fact that you disagree makes no difference to the reliability of my beliefs, and vice versa. My explanations are adequate for me, so I'm satisfied. There are no contradictions or fallacies in the process as I see it.

It's handy to remember that the full workings of time are not understood by anyone on this Earth, so it's not particularly easy for anyone to state that a particular temporal theory is manifestly "wrong". Goodness only knows what would happen if a particular portion of time were to be compressed; it gets even more uncertain if you factor in the inherent unpredictability of a human consciousness driving the process from two distinct points in history. That could easily account for why the past becomes an indistinct jumble, why people end up in places and times they want to be as a result. It's plausible, even though there's no factual data either in our world or in the game. It's "not improbable", basically. So it works for me.

That's all true. They are merely my own conclusions and opinions.

I simply think that based on what we KNOW as a fact about TC, Square probably decided to go for Cool Factor over logic.
My opinion, that's all.

You CAN explain it, as you suggested with bits flying into the future, but that is just far too "made up" for me to agree with, if you know what I mean.

That's logical. Squall's a 17-year-old, with an education that's basically all about military matters. It'd make no sense for him to make sense of time compression, if you see what I mean. It also means that Square don't have to formulate a convoluted, and therefore more likely to be flawed, full explanation for the process. "Discrepancies" in personal theories can be accounted for by the anomalies of human nature, the mysterious properties of time itself, and what happens when those collide.

All true, but I still stick by my opinion.

Makes it sound like your theory is fact, if I'm obliged to account for it. I'm not. Your ideas, about the rate of compression, the level and evenness of that compression, are necessary to your theory, not mine. Both are equally valid views.

No, my theory is not fact. However, I believe it would be most logical if Squalls gets from his time "A" to Ultimecias time "B" because they are compressed together.
If they were not compressed together, there would be no difference from normal time.

However, if they WERE compressed together, Squall would be fighting Ultimecia inside a small region of Time Compression, which contradicts what Odine says about being OUTSIDE of TC.

THAT is the great flaw I realized was there after all those discussions, and that's why I believe Square never actually wanted to make it a logical process, because if my initial assumption were correct, the whole thing falls apart.

However, I acknowledge that it can be explained if you take another initial assumption, but for me, any other assumption seems far too farfetched and made up.
I don't mind making theories over ingame facts, but I think there's a limit to how much one can make up before it becomes silly.

How on Earth is it "ridiculous"? What we take away with us after finishing a story is based largely on how we respond to the text - the characters, the plot, all of it. What we each draw from it is entirely unique. How we interpret the work is up to the individual; some see allegory where others see irony. We "colour" the stories we experience by taking our own perspective on them. That's one of the best things about fiction, in my opinion.

Excuse me, but I think you'll find that if you read what comes afterwards, you'll understand what I meant. It's not like I wrote "is ridiculous PERIOD" =P

Please read the entirety of what I said.

[Big D]

What I meant was that they have no idea why she needs to go further back in time.
Odine merely states it, Ultimecias doesn't even mention it.

Right-o. Yet the fact remains, she needs to go back further. She can't perform time compression unless she does. Logical conclusion? She needs to go back further in order for time compression to work.

No, scanning says that she's transformed so as to "compress time".
I'm almost 100% certain about that, but I'll try and check.

At some point in the game, it's stated that Ultimecia's bent on absorbing the power of all sorceresses from all eras. I forget the exact wording or location, simply that it's said somewhere. Not something I came up with on my own.

But I just don't see how they could will themselves to Ultimecias time when they had no idea when that time was.

But then, even if they knew the exact year and date, it'd be the same - time cares nothing for our units of measurement; I think it was enough that they wanted to go to Ultimecia, to continue the fight, as it were.

My point was that Odine makes it clear that you will LEAVE TC, meaning you are not fighting Ultimecia inside TC.

And if their two times have to be compressed together for them to get there, they certainly ARE fighting her inside a small region of TC.

Yes. They travelled through that chaotic, dream-like world of totally compressed time, full of distortion and imbalance. I think that's kind of like "totally compressed time", where the procedure's more-or-less complete. They pop out at the "front end" of time compression, like being on the outside of a black hole's event horizon, in normal space. However, even in Ultimecia's time, compression was beginning to take place. The process was expanding, creeping forward by the looks of things.

I simply cannot agree with your suggestion that "small parts of Squalls time are thrust into the future" because it just seems like such a bland excuse for how they got there IMO.

It's not an excuse for how they got there; their arrival is explained by the "willing themselves through compressed time" deal. The presence of the Ragnarok and the CC group, and the Queen of Cards and Chocoboy, proves that time compression has had an effect in Ultimecia's world. Her future contains elements of what Squall considers "the present" - a blend of two different times, if not more. It's not as much of a compression as what happened when the party began their journey to the future, but it is a kind of "jumbling" of past and future elements.

Anyway, I personally can't see HOW small parts would be thrust to the future unless they were becoming compressed together, which agains brings up that fatal flaw.

Far from being a flaw, I see it as logical. The crew journey through the fractured, compacted parts of time, leaving that reality at the point where time is less compressed, more "real". An explosion is a suitable analogy - at the centre, it's destroyed and chaotic; but closer to the edge, there's less disruption and harm.

However, I believe it would be most logical if Squalls gets from his time "A" to Ultimecias time "B" because they are compressed together.
If they were not compressed together, there would be no difference from normal time.

However, if they WERE compressed together, Squall would be fighting Ultimecia inside a small region of Time Compression, which contradicts what Odine says about being OUTSIDE of TC.

Sure, they're outside of the totally compressed, disrupted region of time; but details from the game itself demonstrate that elements of past and future have been combined in that time. Not a complete fusion, but an overlapping.
Another interpretation... could be that "compressed time" exists as an adjacent reality, a parallel universe of sorts; but after Ultimecia starts the compression, it gradually begins "eating into" the real world. When Squall et al begin the journey through compressed time, they're right in the thick of it - at the heart of the compressed-time universe. It's all a blurred jumble; they can't just leave and stay in their own time because their own time has been encompassed, absorbed by this compression. When they leave compressed time, they're back in what remains of "normal time", which is Ultimecia's future, where the effects of time compresson haven't completely spilled over. There's a clear distinction between compressed time, and the normal time that exists outside of it. When Squall's trying to return to his own time, he winds up in the orphanage. He's left compressed time, but clearly the effects of time compression are still present, as shown by his presence there, and Ultimecia's, and his ability to depart again. He leaves "real time", which is gradually de-compressing back to its normal state, and returns to compressed time, or what's left of it - that ever-decreasing void. Then Rinoa finds him, and together they get back to reality, before time compression is completely undone and their means of passage has vanished.

On the other hand, it could just be that Odine doesn't fully know what he's talking about when he refers to "being OUTSIDE of TC."

No, my theory is not fact.

What made it seem like "fact" was your use of the word "unexplainable". Unexplainable=not capable of being explained. Quite different to simply "unexplained", or "not explained to my satisfaction". When you said it was "unexplainable", it seemed like you were saying that the process cannot be explained, that it's incapable of explanation, just because your own deliberations hadn't provided an answer. I know that's not your intent, that's just how it came across - like you were purporting your belief to be fact. Kind of reinforced when you said, "concluding that it was in fact too mysterious to be explainable."
Clearly, that's not what you actually intended; however, to an outside observer, it looked much like you were saying, "well, I thought about it, and since I can't think of an explanation, then that means it's not explainable".

Excuse me, but I think you'll find that if you read what comes afterwards, you'll understand what I meant.

You're excused. I read your entire post, I just didn't feel like commenting on the entire thing.

[Sir Bahamut]

Right-o. Yet the fact remains, she needs to go back further. She can't perform time compression unless she does. Logical conclusion? She needs to go back further in order for time compression to work.

I took that as a given actually. The question is WHY she needs to do so. That is never answered.

At some point in the game, it's stated that Ultimecia's bent on absorbing the power of all sorceresses from all eras. I forget the exact wording or location, simply that it's said somewhere. Not something I came up with on my own.

The only thing in the game similar to that is that in the tutorial, under the effects of time compression, it says "sorceress powers may cross over to give one sorceress great powers".

If you want to cinvince me otherwise, you'll need an exact quote.

But then, even if they knew the exact year and date, it'd be the same - time cares nothing for our units of measurement; I think it was enough that they wanted to go to Ultimecia, to continue the fight, as it were.

Time may not care, but if Squall were to manipulate his way through time, it might help if he knew where he was going.

But you're right, it could have simply been enough wishing to go and fight Ultimecia.

Yes. They travelled through that chaotic, dream-like world of totally compressed time, full of distortion and imbalance. I think that's kind of like "totally compressed time", where the procedure's more-or-less complete. They pop out at the "front end" of time compression, like being on the outside of a black hole's event horizon, in normal space. However, even in Ultimecia's time, compression was beginning to take place. The process was expanding, creeping forward by the looks of things.

But if time compressed all the "many generations" so quickly, allowing them to "pop out" in front of time compression so to speak, one would think TC should swallow up that era too.

I mean, TC gobbles up hundreds of years within the span of probably ten minutes, it should gobble up the hour or so you use getting through Ultimecias castle within seconds.

Yes, it might slow down, but that again seems to be pulling it too far IMO.
I mean, when you have to explain things by making up things completely, things not backed up by anything than for the purpose of trying to make sense to it, then it's gone too far IMO.

Besides, I don't see any reason why it should suddenly slow down from such an incredible speed to a really tiny speed all of a sudden.

It's not an excuse for how they got there; their arrival is explained by the "willing themselves through compressed time" deal. The presence of the Ragnarok and the CC group, and the Queen of Cards and Chocoboy, proves that time compression has had an effect in Ultimecia's world. Her future contains elements of what Squall considers "the present" - a blend of two different times, if not more. It's not as much of a compression as what happened when the party began their journey to the future, but it is a kind of "jumbling" of past and future elements.

You are right, there IS evidence that bits from Squalls time were "thrown" into Ultimecias time, so Ultimecias time and Squalls time must have been linked by at least a small part.

Stupid Odine, why did he have to say you would leave TC when fighting Ultimecia. Of course, perhaps they were just linked very minutely, not enough to be considered inside TC.

Sounds awfulyl dodgy though, IMO.

Far from being a flaw, I see it as logical. The crew journey through the fractured, compacted parts of time, leaving that reality at the point where time is less compressed, more "real". An explosion is a suitable analogy - at the centre, it's destroyed and chaotic; but closer to the edge, there's less disruption and harm.

Good analogy there, but the expansion of an explosion doesn't suddenly drop it's speed by huge proportions.

Good analogy anyway, makes sense.

Sure, they're outside of the totally compressed, disrupted region of time; but details from the game itself demonstrate that elements of past and future have been combined in that time. Not a complete fusion, but an overlapping.

Yes, all would now seem to be explainable, save the sudden drop in speed.

Another interpretation... could be that "compressed time" exists as an adjacent reality, a parallel universe of sorts; but after Ultimecia starts the compression, it gradually begins "eating into" the real world. When Squall et al begin the journey through compressed time, they're right in the thick of it - at the heart of the compressed-time universe. It's all a blurred jumble; they can't just leave and stay in their own time because their own time has been encompassed, absorbed by this compression. When they leave compressed time, they're back in what remains of "normal time", which is Ultimecia's future, where the effects of time compresson haven't completely spilled over. There's a clear distinction between compressed time, and the normal time that exists outside of it.

Perhaps, perhaps.

On the other hand, it could just be that Odine doesn't fully know what he's talking about when he refers to "being OUTSIDE of TC."

Haha, that would certainly make life easier!

Anyway, thank you. I had gotten locked into a little box that said TC was unexplainable due to that flaw I mentioned earlier, and I did not think it was explainable.

I still think Square didn't quite think it all through when they put in all the info of TC, but at least know I don't think it's complete bollocks

[Big D]

[quoteThe only thing in the game similar to that is that in the tutorial, under the effects of time compression, it says "sorceress powers may cross over to give one sorceress great powers".

If you want to cinvince me otherwise, you'll need an exact quote.
[/quote]Ah, that's the one. Knew it was something like that. I usually trust what the tutorial says, since it provides all the nifty background info on other events. But even then, it seems that Ultimecia's goal, like so many FF villains before her, is to attain ultimate power. Her final form is supremely powerful, capable of absorbing time and space, if I recall right; she got more powerful as time compressed more. She wanted to become a "God" and rule over all creation, apparently. Pretty generic delusions of divinity.

But if time compressed all the "many generations" so quickly, allowing them to "pop out" in front of time compression so to speak, one would think TC should swallow up that era too.

I mean, TC gobbles up hundreds of years within the span of probably ten minutes, it should gobble up the hour or so you use getting through Ultimecias castle within seconds.

Yes, it might slow down, but that again seems to be pulling it too far IMO.
I mean, when you have to explain things by making up things completely, things not backed up by anything than for the purpose of trying to make sense to it, then it's gone too far IMO.

Besides, I don't see any reason why it should suddenly slow down from such an incredible speed to a really tiny speed all of a sudden.

True enough. It's possible that time compression works via an initial, uncontrolled 'cascade', a rapidly expanding rush that then settles back into a steady, controllable progression. Ultimecia's a bit of a control freak, so she'd probably like to keep control over the process. That's a possibility, anyway. Hate to use a morbid analogy again, but the "exploding building" image works, too - the initial "bang" represents the first, violent form of time compression, the one that Squall and co can travel through. What comes next is a fire, just as destructive, but moving through the rest of the structure slowly, expanding and consuming. Of course, there's absolutely nothing in the game to support this; it's pure conjecture contrived to fit the facts.

I still think Square didn't quite think it all through when they put in all the info of TC

Absolutely right! They probably underestimated intelligent fans' desire for explanations, closure and clarity. The basic framework is there - "Ultimecia goes into the past to compress time; Squall and co move through compressed time and arrive in her world" - which is fine, until you go deeper and try to establish a deeper, logical chronology and explanation for what's happening. That's when dodgy conjecture and theories have to emerge, to cover what might otherwise seem to be glaring plot-holes
On the face of it, their story 'works'; it's only when it's examined in detail that further explanations are needed. Much like the aforementioned "Sephiroth or Jenova?" debate in FFVII.

You've clearly put a lot of time and effort, not to mention brain-power, into formulating these theories; the only problem with that kind of intelligent thinking is that it all kind of back-fires when you go beyond the point that the creators ever figured anyone would go. When you get past the limits of back-stories and in-game explanations, you're into a world of total conjecture, with unlimited scope for postulating and hypothesising.
But then, it gives people a chance to use their imaginations and come up with their own explanations for what works and doesn't for how and why things happen or shouldn't.

[Sir Bahamut]

Ah, that's the one. Knew it was something like that. I usually trust what the tutorial says, since it provides all the nifty background info on other events. But even then, it seems that Ultimecia's goal, like so many FF villains before her, is to attain ultimate power. Her final form is supremely powerful, capable of absorbing time and space, if I recall right; she got more powerful as time compressed more. She wanted to become a "God" and rule over all creation, apparently. Pretty generic delusions of divinity.

As much as I hate that generic, stereo-type motive, I have to agree.
The tutorial does seem to be Squares way of letting us know all sorts of details, even if they just put "may" I think that was their way of giving her a motive.

Pity =/

True enough. It's possible that time compression works via an initial, uncontrolled 'cascade', a rapidly expanding rush that then settles back into a steady, controllable progression. Ultimecia's a bit of a control freak, so she'd probably like to keep control over the process. That's a possibility, anyway. Hate to use a morbid analogy again, but the "exploding building" image works, too - the initial "bang" represents the first, violent form of time compression, the one that Squall and co can travel through. What comes next is a fire, just as destructive, but moving through the rest of the structure slowly, expanding and consuming. Of course, there's absolutely nothing in the game to support this; it's pure conjecture contrived to fit the facts.

It'd have to slow down awfully quickly awfully fast though, and Ultimecia gives me the impression that she would want TC to be finished quickly(seeing as she says "The world was on the brink of that ever elusive Time Compression" as if she was cross that SeeD had intervened).

A speed of several hundred years in about ten minutes shifting to what would probably have to be a few minutes per minute?

Oh well.

Absolutely right! They probably underestimated intelligent fans' desire for explanations, closure and clarity. The basic framework is there - "Ultimecia goes into the past to compress time; Squall and co move through compressed time and arrive in her world" - which is fine, until you go deeper and try to establish a deeper, logical chronology and explanation for what's happening. That's when dodgy conjecture and theories have to emerge, to cover what might otherwise seem to be glaring plot-holes
On the face of it, their story 'works'; it's only when it's examined in detail that further explanations are needed. Much like the aforementioned "Sephiroth or Jenova?" debate in FFVII.

I completely agree.
Pity, TC was a nice idea. Wish they put some more work into it.

You've clearly put a lot of time and effort, not to mention brain-power, into formulating these theories; the only problem with that kind of intelligent thinking is that it all kind of back-fires when you go beyond the point that the creators ever figured anyone would go. When you get past the limits of back-stories and in-game explanations, you're into a world of total conjecture, with unlimited scope for postulating and hypothesising.
But then, it gives people a chance to use their imaginations and come up with their own explanations for what works and doesn't for how and why things happen or shouldn't.

Very true, imagination is really the only way out here, and I think in many cases that's a great thing.
But in this case, I think Square left far too much space for imagination.

Anyway, been a pleasure debating with you. Hope you can forgive my snappish and arrogant tendencies, I get like that sometimes(too competative I fear).

[Big D]

It'd have to slow down awfully quickly awfully fast though, and Ultimecia gives me the impression that she would want TC to be finished quickly(seeing as she says "The world was on the brink of that ever elusive Time Compression" as if she was cross that SeeD had intervened).

Now there's a thought... maybe SeeD's intervention somehow interrupted the process? They made a conscious choice to travel to Ultimecia's time in particular; perhaps that caused a temporary cessation to the compression process somehow... Ultimecia seemed to think that she had to kill Squall's party and end their interference before her total domination could come into effect... that adds yet more possibilities.

Anyway, been a pleasure debating with you. Hope you can forgive my snappish and arrogant tendencies, I get like that sometimes(too competative I fear).

Likewise; I oughta apologise for taking your arguments at face value rather than interpreting what you actually meant.

Dammit, now it seems we agree fully and there's nothing more to discuss. Hmm. Ah well, progress can still be made, even without an adversarial framework. It's possible this thread could eventually develop into a full and plausible explanation of time compression...

[FightClubFan#47]

Although i shouldnt, im gonna post my opinion, cause im arrogant and i can admit that.

Ne who.

I mean, TC gobbles up hundreds of years within the span of probably ten minutes, it should gobble up the hour or so you use getting through Ultimecias castle within seconds.

My theroy is that parts of time is randomly thrown in the compressed time.

(ill use ur kinda example Bahamuhut)Example:

Time before spell
A>B>C>D>E>F>G

E is squalls time. G is ultys. everything else is everthing else.

Time begininng of spell
A>B>C> > >F>DEG

Around Middle
>B>C> > >F>ADEG

Last three seconds of final battle
>B> > > > >ADEFG

See, just random times are going to ulty's time.

If you want to cinvince me otherwise, you'll need an exact quote.

I don't have an exact quote, but i remember(i think) Edea saying that Ulty wants to compres time so she can have all the sorceress' power. This conversation was at the ophernage after the second battle with edea. the screen was black and squall was thinking about rinoa durring the convo.

Ne who. Thats my Dumb*** opinion

[Sir Bahamut]

Now there's a thought... maybe SeeD's intervention somehow interrupted the process? They made a conscious choice to travel to Ultimecia's time in particular; perhaps that caused a temporary cessation to the compression process somehow... Ultimecia seemed to think that she had to kill Squall's party and end their interference before her total domination could come into effect... that adds yet more possibilities.

Possible. Ultimecia is certainly very distrought at their arrival. However, it cannot be said whether that is because the stopped TC from completion, or because they showed up to try and kill her =/

Perhaps both.

Likewise; I oughta apologise for taking your arguments at face value rather than interpreting what you actually meant.

Dammit, now it seems we agree fully and there's nothing more to discuss. Hmm. Ah well, progress can still be made, even without an adversarial framework. It's possible this thread could eventually develop into a full and plausible explanation of time compression...

That would certainly be ideal. But I for one can't think of a new idea right now.

My theroy is that parts of time is randomly thrown in the compressed time.

(ill use ur kinda example Bahamuhut)Example:

Time before spell
A>B>C>D>E>F>G

E is squalls time. G is ultys. everything else is everthing else.

Time begininng of spell
A>B>C> > >F>DEG

Around Middle
>B>C> > >F>ADEG

Last three seconds of final battle
>B> > > > >ADEFG

See, just random times are going to ulty's time.

I don't know, such complete randomness doesn't seem to fit in. Ultimecia would have no control over it for one, and I just can't picture the spell acting like that.
Obviously just opinion, but I would prefer order over chaos =/

Also, in your time, it looks like statistically odds are quite high you'd be fighting her inside a region of TC consisting of multiple compressed eras, meaning it should probably be considered "inside TC" contradicting Odine.
Perhaps they got insanely lucky?

Also, if Squall and Co had no control over getting to Ultimecias time, everything Laguna says about using willpower to get there and stay alive is rendered false.
Sure, Laguna may not know squat about TC, but do you really think Square intended him to not be telling the truth?

I don't have an exact quote, but i remember(i think) Edea saying that Ulty wants to compres time so she can have all the sorceress' power. This conversation was at the ophernage after the second battle with edea. the screen was black and squall was thinking about rinoa durring the convo.

Edea: ...I have been possessed all this time. I was at the mercy of
Sorceress Ultimecia. Ultimecia is a sorceress from the future. A
sorceress many generations ahead of our time. Ultimecia's objective is
to find Ellone. She is after Ellone's mysterious power. I knew Ellone
very well. Ultimecia is a very fearful sorceress. Her heart is filled
with anger and hate. There was no way I was going to let Ultimecia get
a hold of Ellone. The only thing I could do was... ...Surrender my soul to
Ultimecia and lose control of my mind. That was the only way I could
save Ellone. And the end result... Well, you all know. The sorceress that
appeared in Galbadia was in fact Ultimecia...inside my shell...

Squall talks to Edea again.

Edea: Ultimecia had yet to achieve her goal. I believe she may use my
body again to carry out her plans. I plan to make a stand this time,
but...if that does not work... I may have to face you in battle once again.
I ask for your support, young SeeDs.

Before Squall could leave...

Zell: Squall, I'm sure that Matron has much more to say!

Squall: (I've heard enough.) (I understand that listening to what
Matron has to say is important, but Rinoa...) Matron, do you know what's
wrong with Rinoa?

Edea: Rinoa is the girl in light blue? I remember vaguely... What
happened to her?

Squall: She was with us when we fought you. After the battle... ...Her body
was cold... She didn't move...

Headmaster Cid: Did Rinoa die!?

Squall: NO!!!

Edea: Forgive me, Squall. I don't think I can be of any help.

Squall: ...It's all right.

Headmaster Cid: Squall, I understand how you feel. But you are in a
position of leadership. The other students at Garden have a right to
know about the outcome of the battle and what's to come. Take whatever
information you can get here, back to Garden. Remember, it wasn't just
Rinoa. Everyone fought.

Squall: I understand... But...

Headmaster Cid: But, but, but... That isn't something a leader should
say.

Squall: ......... (...Dammit.) Ultimecia's objective is to find Ellone. (First
time we met was the day I became a SeeD. We met again...in Timber...)
Ellone's mysterious power... Sending one's consciousness back into the
past. So Ultimecia wants to use Ellone's power, right? (We had a lot of
arguments at first. But in time, things began to change.) I get it.
Ultimecia wants to send her consciousness from this period further into
the past. What's she going to do in the past? (You were looking at me...
You smile when our eyes met...) Time compression. Time compression? (It
made me feel calm, tranquil.) It's time magic. Past, present, and
future get compressed. What's going to happen to the world? Why do
something like that? (Rinoa... Give me another chance.) I can't even
imagine a world where time is compressed!

---

Nope, I'm afraid you're wrong.

[FightClubFan#47]

Shioot.knew i shouldnt have gotten involved. have a moomba