Time travel and the R=U theories (MASSIVE FRICKEN SPOILER WARNING)

[ShivaBlizzard8]

I think we're getting "being possessed by Ulty" confused with "inheriting the sorceress powers." Being possessed by Ultimecia does NOT give anyone sorceress powers. Everyone she possesses already has those powers, which is WHY she possess them. (For example, Ulty had no interest in Rinoa whatsoever until she inherited Edea's powers.) Ulty wanted to possess sorceresses so that she could use their powers to accomplish her goals - since she could not be there in person to do these things herself (she could only send her conciousness back until time compression was achieved), she would obviously want to possess those who were equally as powerful as she was in her own time.

Now, that said, here is the cronology as I understand it:

1. Edea gets her sorceress powers at age 5 from some sorceress other than Adel. Who this person was is unclear. There must have been multiple sorceresses, since Edea and Adel had to have gotten their powers from different people. Nothing ever says that only one sorceress can exist in the world at a time, just that at the end of the game, Rinoa is the only one currently.

2. Adel is defeated in the first sorceress war and confined. Since she is not killed, her powers remain. However, since no one other than Estharians know how the war ended, others suspect Edea inherited Adel's powers. This is not true.

3. When Squall and Co. are kids, Edea meets a dying Ulty from the future. Edea accepts Ulty's powers, adding them to the ones she already possesses.

4. Ulty, using Junction Machine Ellone, sends her consciousness back in time and possesses Edea. Edea, controlled by Ulty, goes public as a sorceress and begins amassing political power in order to set Ulty's plans for time compression in motion.

5. Edea is defeated by Squall and Co. Her powers are somehow transferred to Rinoa. Sensing this, Ulty possesses Rinoa. Edea is no longer a sorceress.

6. Rinoa, possessed by Ulty, releases Adel. Adel junctions Rinoa to herself. When Adel is defeated, her powers transfer to Rinoa.

7. Rinoa is possessed by Ultimecia. Ellone sends the Rinoa/Ultimecia conciosuness into the past to achieve time compression.

8. With time compressed, Ulty releases Rinoa, since Ulty can now exist physically.

9. Rin, Squall and Co. defeat Ulty. Ulty travels to the past and gives her powers to Edea. Time fixes itself.
Rinoa is still a sorceress. They only one in the present.

Hope that clears things up.

[Mo-Nercy]

Crystal clear. *muah*

[Inquisitor Lord]

Could someone explain this argument a bit better for me.
Are we talking about sorceress powers being passed on (Rinoa to Ultimecia) or Rinoa somehow physically becoming ultimecia.
Anyway how far is Ultimecia in the future from 'Present time' (Squall's time)

[PhoenixAsh]

The theory suggests (fairly convincingly IMO) that Rinoa physically becomes Ultimecia.

Ultimecia exists generations after the main game.

I haven't seen the part in a while, did Edea actually get powers twice, or did she just get them once from Ultimecia when she was 5?

[Inquisitor Lord]

Does having sorceress powers make someone live longer? I was not aware of that, how could rinoa live long enough to become ultimecia otherwise?

[Singing_Wings]

I don't think that Rinoa is Utimecia, and here are my reasons...

01. "She turned evil after Squall died."
This is completely against Rinoa's whole personality. Though Rinoa loves Squall, he is not her only priority. She has other friends and other values. It's more likely that Rinoa would start a foundation, dedicated to the cause of Squall's death, or do something actively good and beneficial for other people who suffer. If he was murdered, Rinoa would probably be more interested in getting revenge rather than turning evil herself. Aside from this, Rinoa cares a great deal about what people think of her: by turning evil, won't everybody hate her? Think of when she placed herself in the Sorceress Memorial. She knew very well that she wouldn't ever be able to see Squall again, yet she willingly sacrificed herself so that people could not be harmed by her. Rinoa is also very optimistic, and would rather settle down and live a quiet life alone, tending some large garden in the rain by the sea, rather than go harm people because something happened to her beloved Squallyworm.

02. "Her castle is where Squall and Rinoa's meadow is."
Have you noticed nearly every sorceress takes a liking to remote areas - a place where they aren't attacked or in fear of harming other people, a place far from population where they can either plot or hide? All of the sorceresses who are in control of their will have all chosen the exact same location - the isolated field - the orphanage by the sea. Edea chose that same remote place, Rinoa wanted to go to that remote place, now Ultimecia is in the same remote place. Since they all, even Edea, went to the same location, is this suggesting Rinoa might also be Edea? Ultimecia also destroyed the field by building her castle on top of it - do you think Rinoa would wish to do this if she treasured it so? Rinoa would probably let it grow naturally, and spend her evenings sitting on the shore wishing Squall was next to her rather than building a castle atop it.

03. "Their faces are the same shape, etc."
This is very untrue. Rinoa's face is more rounded: Ultimecia's chin is kind of pointy; a lot more narrow. Also keep in mind that everyone's faces tended to look a little similar in the FMVs (meaning Quistis, Selphie, Rinoa, etc. all looked fairly similar) because of the way they were animated. Ultimecia and Rinoa's eyes are different shapes, as well. Rinoa's eyes are straight along the bottom and curved along the top, and Ultimecia's are the exact opposite; the tops are straight and the bottoms are curved. I don't even see where this suggestion comes from.

04. "Ultimecia's ending lines."
In her ending lines, Ultimecia mentions childhood. Childhood has nothing to do with Rinoa and Squall - they never knew each other in their childhoods; therefore, childhood would not concern Rinoa if she became evil in her misery of lacking Squall. Most of what Ultimecia said in her ending lines had to do with childhood and the past. Edea is even more likely to say this instead of Rinoa, since she knows every bit of Squall's past. Rinoa did talk about time a good deal, but she was always talking about the present. She talked about how you should use every moment you've been given and not worry about the past. She let go of time very easily - why would she want to be in a merged time, all life stilled, when she was so intent upon living her life? If she merged time, then she would be caught in the past; and she let the past go very, very easily.

05. "A sorceress must die for powers to be passed. Where did Rinoa's powers come from?"
At the time, Edea was with Dr. Odine trying to rid herself of her power. Rinoa received her powers directly after Edea loses her powers. Is it not possible that Rinoa received Edea's magic? Sorceress powers must go somewhere: they do not simply vanish or cease to exist. That's why Ultimecia was wandering in the end, she had to find someone to give her powers to in order to finally cease being a ghost. Also notice that, in the compressed time where Ultimecia was looking to give up her powers, she chose Squall's childhood? There was no Rinoa whatsoever. It's a mystery as to where Ultimecia inherited her own powers: perhaps Rinoa gave them to her when she finally died, or perhaps some other sorceress that was never even mentioned.

In the first theory that "Rinoa is Ultimecia", it was claimed that the game stated that a sorceress MUST DIE for her powers to be passed on. However, it was never stated. It was assumed. Anyway, where did Rinoa's powers initially come from, then, if no one died to give them to her? This question almost contradicts itself.

07. "Sorceresses don't age."
This is untrue. Or rather, it is never defined. It was mentioned that Adel never died, but this is because she was frozen and preserved. The point of freezing a human being is to slow their body functions down enough where everything in the body happens so slowly that it doesn't wear the body out. As the people do not know what to do with sorceresses, nor can they destroy them, they freeze them so they are unable to do damage. Therefore, Adel did not age.

It was also mentioned that Cid looks a lot older than Edea, which I don't really find true. Cid and Edea are probably in their late thirties. Neither have any grey hair or show any signs of tremendous age, and both look fairly young but mature. The contrast is that Edea (as Matron) looks very innocent and Cid looks hard-working. Also, it was never specified how old Cid was when he married Edea, nor how old Edea was when she married Cid. Maybe Cid was older than Edea, that's not so uncommon. Anyhow, women always look younger than their men counterparts because women naturally age slightly slower. :3 And anyway, Squaresoft wouldn't put old ladies as main characters~

08. "Kursed SeeDs."
It is far more likely that Ultimecia is Edea than Rinoa, because of the background behind this line. Cid and Edea once talked, as if they knew, that Edea would come to dislike SeeDs. Rinoa didn't care one way or the other about SeeD; rather, she was more grateful to them for helping her so many times and giving her Squall. Ultimecia obviously hates them, but Rinoa has absolutely no reason to hate SeeDs. This contradicts another point that this theory brought up. It was stated that Rinoa became Ultimecia out of love for Squall, who died. Why would Rinoa hate SeeDs SO much if her beloved Squall was a SeeD?

06. Others
Rinoa was left by Ultimecia to die in space (after Ultimecia was through using Rinoa to release Adel, she released her possession on her and allowed her to float off into space). If Rinoa were Ultimecia, and she killed herself while she was Rinoa, then Ultimecia would never have come to be Ultimecia. It's suicide.

[ShivaBlizzard8]

I haven't seen the part in a while, did Edea actually get powers twice, or did she just get them once from Ultimecia when she was 5?

She actually got them twice - once when she was five from a sorceress of unknown origins, then later when she was Matron of the orphanage during Squall's stay there. Squall was probably around 4 or 5, so Edea recieved Ulty's powers about 12 years before the game begins. We discover this at the end of the game, when the adult Squall travels back in time to see Ulty transfer her powers to Edea. Edea is clearly an adult, and Squall sees a younger version of himself. This conflicts with Edea's claim that she first recieved the sorceress powers at age 5, so she must have gotten 2 sets of powers.

[Inquisitor Lord]

Singing wings, that is a convincing argument. I wasnt sure but that makes it fairly clear. Especially when Ulty leaves Rinoa. Is it possible to possess yourself anyway?

Cid is 40, it says in the strategy guide,it also says that because he is so hard working it makes him seem aged beyond his years. Edeas age is unknown but she doesnt really look like she could be much younger than late 30's

[PhoenixAsh]

Singing_Wings:

06. Others
Rinoa was left by Ultimecia to die in space (after Ultimecia was through using Rinoa to release Adel, she released her possession on her and allowed her to float off into space). If Rinoa were Ultimecia, and she killed herself while she was Rinoa, then Ultimecia would never have come to be Ultimecia. It's suicide.

Ultimecia wouldn't know she was Rinoa, so wouldn't care.
If Rinoa died she wouldn't be able to put herself in that position and couldn't have died. I've used this loop to promote the arguement for R=U on occassion.

01. "She turned evil after Squall died."
This is completely against Rinoa's whole personality. Though Rinoa loves Squall, he is not her only priority. She has other friends and other values. It's more likely that Rinoa would start a foundation, dedicated to the cause of Squall's death, or do something actively good and beneficial for other people who suffer. If he was murdered, Rinoa would probably be more interested in getting revenge rather than turning evil herself. Aside from this, Rinoa cares a great deal about what people think of her: by turning evil, won't everybody hate her? Think of when she placed herself in the Sorceress Memorial. She knew very well that she wouldn't ever be able to see Squall again, yet she willingly sacrificed herself so that people could not be harmed by her. Rinoa is also very optimistic, and would rather settle down and live a quiet life alone, tending some large garden in the rain by the sea, rather than go harm people because something happened to her beloved Squallyworm.

I recommend the last few episodes of Buffy Season 6 for answers to most of that.

02. "Her castle is where Squall and Rinoa's meadow is."
Have you noticed nearly every sorceress takes a liking to remote areas - a place where they aren't attacked or in fear of harming other people, a place far from population where they can either plot or hide? All of the sorceresses who are in control of their will have all chosen the exact same location - the isolated field - the orphanage by the sea. Edea chose that same remote place, Rinoa wanted to go to that remote place, now Ultimecia is in the same remote place. Since they all, even Edea, went to the same location, is this suggesting Rinoa might also be Edea? Ultimecia also destroyed the field by building her castle on top of it - do you think Rinoa would wish to do this if she treasured it so? Rinoa would probably let it grow naturally, and spend her evenings sitting on the shore wishing Squall was next to her rather than building a castle atop it.

I never liked this arguement anyway, but to argue that Edea, Rinoa and Ulty all liked the area is pointless. Rinoa went there because of Edea, and the claim is that Ulty IS Rinoa, so the arguement is lost.

07. "Sorceresses don't age."
This is untrue. Or rather, it is never defined. It was mentioned that Adel never died, but this is because she was frozen and preserved. The point of freezing a human being is to slow their body functions down enough where everything in the body happens so slowly that it doesn't wear the body out. As the people do not know what to do with sorceresses, nor can they destroy them, they freeze them so they are unable to do damage. Therefore, Adel did not age.

It was also mentioned that Cid looks a lot older than Edea, which I don't really find true. Cid and Edea are probably in their late thirties. Neither have any grey hair or show any signs of tremendous age, and both look fairly young but mature. The contrast is that Edea (as Matron) looks very innocent and Cid looks hard-working. Also, it was never specified how old Cid was when he married Edea, nor how old Edea was when she married Cid. Maybe Cid was older than Edea, that's not so uncommon. Anyhow, women always look younger than their men counterparts because women naturally age slightly slower. :3 And anyway, Squaresoft wouldn't put old ladies as main characters~

The sheer amount of things done by Cid and Edea suggests that they are older than mid thirties. Edea, Adel and Ultimecia all display at least some physical alterations due to their powers Rinoas have yet to be seen.

The other things you mentioned aren't hugely relevant either way I think, but you did leave out one HUGE point, Griever.

[MagicKnight Locke]

Of course the whole theory lies on one fragile beam...the fact that sorceresses have extended life.
Where on earth was that EVER mentioned

[zacks_clone]

im not reading through all the posts.just the first two,so if you mentioned something i have said,you know why.

One-Ellone ISNTS any relation to Raine.Ellons parents were killed(cant remember how.The time they Esthar was looking for sorcceresses I think)and Raine,who lived next door,took her in.Laguna came to take care of her aswell and love her very much.End of that.

two-Three generations(pretty sure they siad three) are in between Rinoa and Ultimecia.How long is each generation,hmm?And you must remember,it cant be a terrably huge amount of time because,like Adel,Rinoa is human and so isnt Ultimecia.Powers or no.

Three-'Even if you become the worlds enemy,i'll be your knight'.Do you remember that in Squalls thoughts?Well,if Squall was Rinoas knight,why didnt we have to fight dear Squally?Sure,yes,he could have been killed by the sorcceress,but not likely for Ultimecia/Rinoa would still remember she love/loved Squall despite the GF.

in favor of r=u

...the wings basically.only thing that makes me belive they are the same.
those are my dissagreements on that.

[Lord Xehanort]

Okay, I haven't read all this but I have questions anyway...

1.) Why is Griever the GF of Squall's ring in the present, yet only usable by Ultemecia years later. (the ring probably would've decomposed by then)

2.) Ultimecia is killed at the end. If R=U, then U=R, then Rinoa would've died simultaneously. I know Squall sees her vanish in the end but they meet once more for the "Squall Smiling' scene.

3.) Rinoa gets Edea's sorceress powers yet never accepts them. Edea says that she accepted her powers from a sorceress when she was young. So, how exactly are powers passed?

[Aerio]

YOu know i always swore that Ultimecia said she called Greiver from Squalls mind but im probably wrong it was long time ago and the first time it turned all blue for i couldn't read text...but she does say some weird stuff throughout battle

[Lord Xehanort]

"The most pwoerful GF, you will suffer! Griever! Make them bleed!"

[zacks_clone]

Ansem, as far as if you kill ultimecia Rinoa dies-well,that wouldnt be the case.Ultimecia is in the future.If you killed rinoa in the present and she was Ultimecia,then Ultimecia would die.What you do in the future doesnt really affect the present(thats why i never fully understood FF 8....it makes almost no sense)