The mystery of Sephiroth (Big Spoilers)

[Raistlin]

Yep. Sephiroth's powers are almost entirely derived from Jenova; without her cells in his body, he'd be more or less a normal human.

True.

Her powers of illusion were passed onto him. I just mentioned that bit about the Nibelheim illusion because it shows that Sephiroth can construct images in the minds of those without Jenova cells.

Why Sephiroth? Because you see him there? That illusion was, as Sephiroth stated, the power of Jenova.

Jenova's powers lived on in Sephiroth; he was able to combine her magical abilities with the human elements of greed and pride, becoming something perhaps even more threatening. The worst of both worlds, you could say.

Jenova still controlled her cells. Jenova was still sentient. She wasn't some mindless automaton. The Reunion was so Jenova could reclaim her cells. She led Cloud there because she needed Meteor. She kept Sephiroth because she needed him to summon Meteor, and she was too physically weak to do battle.

Sephiroth was blocking Holy for the sole reason that he's the one that summoned Meteor.

If you play through the flashback again, Sephiroth does a complete turnaround on his viewpoints. In one day, he arrives on the conclusion that everyone else is "traitors to the Cetra" and needs to be killed. That has to be Jenova's influence. No, she's not physically active, but that doesn't mean she's brain-dead. She still had full access to the illusionary powers that led to the destruction of the Cetra race. When she was dug up, after 2000 years in the ground(or however long it was), she'd have to be bloody pissed. Why would Sephiroth want to become a God? Why would Sephiroth, who was cold-hearted and calculating, want to destroy the human race? He didn't. Jenova did(she didn't want to "become a god", but she did want to destroy life).

Think about it: Sephiroth had an excuse for everything. When he destroyed Nibelheim, it was because he was killing to traitors to the Cetra. When he summoned Meteor, it was to amass the power of the Lifestream. The first reason was a falsehood(I say fed to him by Jenova), why not the second one too?

Jenova still had access to all of her cells and their powers. It'd be ludicrous is she sat back and did nothing herself. Implausible.

[Big D]

Jenova still controlled her cells. Jenova was still sentient. She wasn't some mindless automaton. The Reunion was so Jenova could reclaim her cells.

Indeed, she's still very much sentient; however, individual and scattered cells aren't sentient. The Reuinion is purely an instinctive response, a powerful "homing signal" drawing the dismembered entity's body back together.

If you play through the flashback again, Sephiroth does a complete turnaround on his viewpoints. In one day, he arrives on the conclusion that everyone else is "traitors to the Cetra" and needs to be killed. That has to be Jenova's influence.

He got all that from the Shinra texts in the library, the documentation about the Jenova project, all compiled before Gast learned what Jenova really was, and never updated after Hojo found Gast's tapes at Icicle Inn. The research said Jenova was a Cetra; Sephiroth believed it because it had Gast's name on it. He learned the truth by travelling the Lifestream, and probably from getting told by Jenova.

Why would Sephiroth want to become a God?

By becoming a God, he could gain dominion over the world that was "rightfully" his, a belief he formed when he still thought he was a Cetra; by the time he knew the truth, he no longer cared - he said that Jenova (and as a result, he himself) was far superior to the Cetra, so he was the rightful ruler anyway. Becoming a God would allow him to bond with Jenova into a single life, a truly unstoppable and powerful force, ultimately becoming one with the Planet itself. This "bonding with the Planet"
is what Sephiroth is doing for all the time he's dormant in the crater after Meteor is summoned. Bizarro Sephiroth and Safer Sephiroth are the "Birth of a God" (to quote the soundtrack), when Sephiroth begins to join with the Planet and Jenova. Sephiroth's plan wasn't entirely his own doing or entirely Jenova's; he gained a lot of knowledge from the Lifestream during his years there, including the Cetras' understanding of the Lifestream's intimate workings.
There's no disputing Jenova's involvement in, or importance to, Sephiroth's destructive plans; however, she was clearly dependent on him to carry out some of her intentions. If she had all her prior strength, she'd merely have done it herself.

[Stayin Dizzy]

I don't know if people are still reading this thread but I just paused ff7 when they are on the ship toward costa del sol. It is the first actual confrontation of seph and cloud (besides the flashbacks) and seph says "who are you" to cloud, then cloud goes off about "its me (blah blah blah)", and then you fight the first part of jenova. After the battle the tenticle is flopping around and cloud assumes sephiroth must have been carrying it. I think it makes sense that it was merely jenova controlling a sephiroth clone...just thought I'd add that bit

[zacks_clone]

Originally posted by Daryn
I don't know if people are still reading this thread but I just paused ff7 when they are on the ship toward costa del sol. It is the first actual confrontation of seph and cloud (besides the flashbacks) and seph says "who are you" to cloud, then cloud goes off about "its me (blah blah blah)", and then you fight the first part of jenova. After the battle the tenticle is flopping around and cloud assumes sephiroth must have been carrying it. I think it makes sense that it was merely jenova controlling a sephiroth clone...just thought I'd add that bit

Yup, something i had not remembered, but it supports my point. Jenova was controlling a Clone. A Clone who did not know anything about Cloud strife at the time, perhaps because Jenova asumed him to be dead, or still in the tube, or just another clone(merely because of the cells in Cloud). After this incounter, it would make enough sense for Jenova to sort of give this Clone the rest of Sephiroths thoughts.

[Big D]

However, it's known for a fact that there are no successful Sephiroth clones. Cloud was as close as they got to a viable, functioning re-creation... and even that experiment was deemed a 'failure' by Hojo. If there had been a living, breathing lookalike gallavanting around, it would've been noted with enthusiasm.
The "who are you?" line suggests one of two things:
(a) The image seen on the ship (and remember, it could pass through solid objects, so it plainly wasn't anything human) was actually Jenova herself, hence the lack of knowledge of who Cloud was; or
(b) It was Seph's actual personal image, just he didn't immediately remember the name of a man he'd met once before, and seen for only a few minutes, five years in the past before taking that eventful plunge and getting his mind inundated with Mako.
In my opinion, it just serves to create the 'conflict' with Cloud's own 'memory' of having been Seph's "war buddy".

[-N-]

Ditto Big D. *tries not to reraise the dead ghosts of conversation*

[zacks_clone]

Ah, but Sephiroth had to have known Cloud before he got tossed into the mako stream. Remember, Sephiorth commented on Cloud returning to his home town. "How does it feel?". That must mean he knew Cloud alittle better then what your stating. Zack (Cloud, speaking as Zack) stated that he and Sephiroth were war buddies. Zack and Cloud were very good friends. There may be a link there.

Now, as far as Sephiroth showing an image of himself, that could not exactly be possible. Sephiroth my have had some experiments done on him, but that does not mean he can simply creat images of himself. He is still human. If your argument is to be that the Jenova cells allowed him to do so, possibly. If Jenova was with him at all times. Jenova would be powerful enough to cast images, NOT Sephiroth because of the cells. He could will his "mother" to creat the images because of the cells, but he himself would not be possible to make them. If so, Cloud could have easly done it aswell. Not to mention Vincent, Hojo, and a great many others.

Now, for it being Jenova...It couldnt be correct either. Why would such a being travel? to simply lead Cloud on? If she could creat an image that could kill, and hold the black matetria, why couldnt she just take the black materia herself (not being harmed in the process,seing how it was an image she created) and why would she need to travel?Or better yet, why Cloud?

[-N-]

I believe those questions are answered here.

(SPOILER)(Oh look at that! It's the SAME THREAD!)

< / bitter >

[MooNScar]

Alright, time to lay down the law. You are arguing either
a) Sephiroth made a spirtual projection of his being
-OR-
b)Jenova was the culprit, and was aiding Sephiroth

I would say that the first in more likley. Who is to say Sephiroth would be unable to project himself across the world, like puppet master? This is the same guy who transformed into the One-Winged-Angel. The same guy who called down Meteor from the sky. And Sephiroth isn't human. Jenova/Cetra -ish. Cloud is the same way with a human mother.

As to address the second possibilty, it is also plausable. There are several occurances in the game where Jenova shows favor to Sephiroth, and seems to almost cater to him. It would seem to me that Jenova knows her own incompetency. Perhaps that isn't the best word. She knows her own inefficency. She knows that she cannot be as powerful as Sephiroth. Sephiroth regards Jenova as 'mother'. Who is to say that Jenova doesn't regard Sephiroth as 'son'? She called the renuion for him, so that he could awaken and claim the Black Materia, she was able to manipulate and ultimatley aid Sephiroth in his quest to be successful. After all, isn't that what all mothers want?

[Big D]

Originally posted by zacks_clone
Ah, but Sephiroth had to have known Cloud before he got tossed into the mako stream. Remember, Sephiorth commented on Cloud returning to his home town. "How does it feel?". That must mean he knew Cloud alittle better then what your stating. Zack (Cloud, speaking as Zack) stated that he and Sephiroth were war buddies. Zack and Cloud were very good friends. There may be a link there.

Zack's friendship with Sephiroth became Cloud's, but only in Cloud's delusion. The "how does it feel?" line might've really been spoken, or else Sephiroth was just making small talk, having overheard conversations in the van between Zack and his friend Cloud.

Now, as far as Sephiroth showing an image of himself, that could not exactly be possible. Sephiroth my have had some experiments done on him, but that does not mean he can simply creat images of himself. He is still human. If your argument is to be that the Jenova cells allowed him to do so, possibly. If Jenova was with him at all times. Jenova would be powerful enough to cast images, NOT Sephiroth because of the cells. He could will his "mother" to creat the images because of the cells, but he himself would not be possible to make them. If so, Cloud could have easly done it aswell. Not to mention Vincent, Hojo, and a great many others.

By that time in the game, Sephiroth has spent five years in the Lifestream, amassing power and knowledge beyond human capacity. 'Projecting an illusory image' is one of Jenova's basic tricks, and we know that Sephiroth posseses some of her powers. We also saw images being projected at the Whirlwind Maze. "I became a traveller of the Lifestream... I learned to diffuse my will through the Lifestream". He's way beyond human by that stage, he's already begun to 'become one with the Planet'.

Now, for it being Jenova...It couldnt be correct either. Why would such a being travel? to simply lead Cloud on? If she could creat an image that could kill, and hold the black matetria, why couldnt she just take the black materia herself (not being harmed in the process,seing how it was an image she created) and why would she need to travel?Or better yet, why Cloud?

This supports some of my arguments. It's contended that what you follow throughout the game is Jenova's almost lifeless body, headless and battered by two millennia of confinement and by Hojo's experiments. Unable to function on its own beyond the mere "homing instinct" of the Jenova Reunion, ebing used by Sephiroth as a 'conduit' through which his projected will can have a substantial form. He wanted to travel and command, and so enticed the Clones to heed their Reunion instinct and follow him to the North Crater, he his real body - and Jenova's head - awaited, amidst the immense energy of the 'promised land'. The Black Materia was guarded by the traps of the Temple, so the Clones were sent in to get it, since they're both expendable and manipulable. The remaining Clones staggered up to the North Cave, and were slaughtered to release their Jenova cells. Then, Jenova DEATH - the last part of Jenova's body - was killed, so Sephiroth had to resort to Cloud to deliver the Materia up to him...

[aeris2001x2]

i find these topics oftern loop and alot is down to opinion anyway. i can just say that sephiroth was the main villan and jenova was the grand manipulator.

to be honest to say jenova was the main villan would nod towards ff8 and ff9. we hated ultimecia, despite her being the main villan cause all she did was manipulate, she had no personality. necron also manipulated kuja ( very loosely,with no direct links for he wanted sumone 2 prove that life was worthless on a cosmic scale before he destroyed it) and yet he didnt do anything in the game.

so we cling to sepiroth being the main man. maybe because he was human or just cooler. yes he was doing jenovas bidding. as far as i can see he was aware of her motives and wanted the same.

the only contrast to this is if whether u believe sephiroth truely wanted 2 become a god. jenova just wanted to end life.

which would have happened if meteor had struck? would sephiroths plan occured? hence he controlled his very cells who wanted no life?

or would the planet have blown up, hence sephiroth was manipulated and betrayed by jenova,the very source of his power?

damn i,ve confused my self. it really is open 2 opinion who was manpulating who. or maybe no one was? sephiroth was directly injected by jenova cells in the womb of luceria?(person in cave by hotspring, vincients love) so the cells were in his very genes!

so in a perverse way, jenova had become human and sephiroth part jenova. that is why all the other experiments "failed". it had 2 be done at conception and allow these genes to merge...

so a NEW entity was born. a deep passion of jenova to hold life in contempt, yet the human frailty that drove him mad that he was not human, felt he had been betrayed.

maybe the madness of sephiroth at nibhelm(sp) was also jenovas too? maybe she couldnt bare the fact that she had become part of the very life she detested so much?

so many questions to chew on! wow i just read this back and it aint bad 4 a 3 year old memory amd having only completed it 4 times.

so yeah. man ff7 is just so deep man. this is so why its the greatest story ever told,as well as the greatest game ever! imho lol.

[Sephiroth_Lionhear88]

*terrible headache * man this game is just to complicated. *takes some more medicine for headache* I guess it's meant to be so complicated

[-N-]

Way to revive this thread for no good reason at all.

[aeris2001x2]

lol i think this topic does needs to be life 2ed. i want a bigger headache.

[Storm]

There was a similar thread to this almost a year ago. It may still be in the archives. Anyhow, it was a great argument between myself, Big D, PhoenixAsh, Raistlin, and some other person. I recommend reading it if it's still there. I'll have to play through FF7 again to find some more evidence that Sephiroth is NOT the main evil.