What a country...

[eestlinc]

Well, we have a lot of responsibility in the world as its sole superpower. When we screw something up, it has big repercussions.

[black orb]

>>> I think it was Al Qaeda.

[gokufusionss1]

1. If this is ETA then it has nothing to do with the US war on terror so lets keep our arrogant and frankly pesimistic opinions to ourselves for the moment.

2. a country of 60 million people and one man with a bomb do you know how easy it is do this kind of thing, as the IRA said
"we only have to be lucky once, you have to be lucky all the time"

[Shadow Nexus]

This time, for once in my life, no, I don't blame the US Well, of course, if CIA had never trained Bin Laden, Al Quaeda would not exist as it is now, but well, leaving all those things asides, if it has been Al Quaeda (Not ETA) the fault lies, first in Bin Laden, for doing such a horrible operation, and next lies on Aznar, for giving Bin Laden a reason to act against our country.

And if it's ETA, the first blame falls into ETA and Sabino de Arana (The guy that created Basque naZionalism in the XIXth century) and then to our dear goverments that could have solved this trout long ago, but see a lot of PRECIOUS VOTES in terrorism (Yes, it is sad). Oh, well, and Franco, he's resposbale for the creation of ETA anyway.

What scares me more now is the uprise of dumbass patriotism happening in my country. I can see this spanish flag with black ribbon on the corner of all the national TV channels (Regional ones from communities that want independence only have black ribbons, something I believe is much better than having flags arround, since flags have a political meaning). That does not nmean more union here, it means more division: Racism agaiunst immigrants, pressure against sectors of the country with lot of independentists (This are two sectors: Basque country and Catalonia, I live in the second one). This means, again, the rise of radicalisms, probably violence, and just general idiocy. If things continue degenerating, I'm leaving this country, it's sick.

[Doomgaze]

So you think that this will lead to Spain backing off on its support of the US?

THOSE VICTIMS ARE DEAD BECAUSE THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE TERRORISTS WANTED.

[War Angel]

Well, it's most definitely Al-Quaeda (or some other affiliated group), with aid from radical personnel from ETA. That is, the mind behind the whole thing is a pan-Islamic organization (most probably Al-Quaeda, for reason of compatible working methods), and they recieved help from radical members of the now dormant and almost disbanded ETA.

ETA denies any connection (and indeed, the 'formal' ETA probably had nothing to do with this) because it doesn't serve their interests. ETA, unlike Islamic terror organizations, has specific goals to achieve. Its bombings were always pretty accurate, against Spanish military and goverment targets. A bombing like the one that occured in Madrid is simply not their style, and would do them and the Basques (or however their name is spelled) more damage then help. That is because they are no longer legitimate, much like the IRA - the Basque populace itself no longer supports them, because they have achieved their goals, or at least reached a compromise (the Basque autonomy in Spain and the Good Friday agreement in Northern Ireland) by peaceful means.

And anyone saying this happened because Spain supported the USA in its war on terrorism is a self-deluded impotent fool. It happened because Spain is a democratic, Christian, western nation. That's it. No other reasons beyond these ones exist.

[Doomgaze]

They're also bitter about that whole expelling the Moors thing. Remember, they live out there in the Land that Time Forgot.

[Big D]

...And if Spain hadn't backed the invasion of Iraq, then the US would've punished them with trade restrictions and by denying them the right to administer humanitarian aid in post-war Iraq.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Someone's going to hate you, either way.

But anyway, ETA has been fairly vociferous about denying responsibility; most likely this was the act of outsiders, possibly aided by a select few local contacts.

There has been a tape released, ostensibly from Al Qaeda, claiming responsibility, but it hasn't been verified yet to my knowledge. It includes catchy clogans like "you love life, we love death".

[DocFrance]

Originally posted by Doomgaze
They're also bitter about that whole expelling the Moors thing. Remember, they live out there in the Land that Time Forgot.

Um, I believe that they're actually called "the Moops." It says right here on the card. [/seinfeld]

Big D: The US wouldn't be "punishing" Spain. The US is it's own country , and it can choose to trade with whoever it wants. It has no obligation to trade with every other country in the world, although a lot of people think that they are.

[Big D]

Originally posted by DocFrance
Big D: The US wouldn't be "punishing" Spain. The US is it's own country , and it can choose to trade with whoever it wants. It has no obligation to trade with every other country in the world, although a lot of people think that they are.

The US "punished" France and Germany in this way, and Bush used the word "punish" to describe its actions; also, the exlcusion of those countries from the rebuilding and aid programmes in Iraq was a pretty blatant move. The US is always pushing for "free trade", just so long as it isn't bound by the rules it wants everyone else to follow...
but that's beside the point.

Even after the IRA disbanded, there were plenty of rogue elements left, these groups considered themselves the 'true' IRA and continued the violence. So even if a group like ETA agrees to stand down, others are going to keep murdering for largely the same cause. Another dangerous side-effect of the present situation is the threat of retaliatory action. Already, a police officer has been arrested for murdering a Basque shopkeeper who refused to hang a black ribbon in his shop as a mark of respect for the fallen. He was known to have links to an activist youth group, and that's why his unpleasantness was met with such violence. Hopefully we won't get the same situation that arose in the US after September 11, 2001, where numerous Muslims, Arabs and Sikhs became the targetes of hatred just for belonging to the "wrong" culture... suspicion and fear like that can easily tear a nation apart if it's not resovled quickly.

[Shadow Nexus]

So you think that this will lead to Spain backing off on its support of the US?

THOSE VICTIMS ARE DEAD BECAUSE THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE TERRORISTS WANTED.

Yes, thats the end of support: According to Zapatero, he is going to wait to June for things to get settled, and make the troups return.

And maybe thats what the terrorists wanted, yes, the fact Spain would end US support. But thats what 91% of the Spanish population wants too, and that explains who won the elections. If you think the general feeling of the people towards the US goverment is positive, you're preety wrong. In fact, the Spanish opinion tends to be quite opposite to US. But well, the goverment does whatever they want, at least the last one did. I hope this one is better...

...well, it WILL be better. It has to, it can't be worse. The repression and criminalization of the oposition in this last four years has been extreme, our goverment did whatever they wanted, giving no chance for dialogue at all, plus the extreme manipulation of public television, that lead the EU to denounce the president. Did you know even our king had to phone Aznar to tell him to stop lying about the Al Quaeda attack?

ETA denies any connection (and indeed, the 'formal' ETA probably had nothing to do with this) because it doesn't serve their interests.

ETA are terrorists, but even if they are still asassins, I am sure they would never do something not even as half as barbaric to what happened. ETA always warns before detonating a bomb so the police can take people out, yet sometimes they announce the explosion later than it is actually programmed, trying to kill one or two policemen. The other thing they do is to shoot people, determinate objectives, just plain dirty asassination.

However, no, even if they are dirty people, this mass murder is far away from their style. The only comparable thing was in 1993, in Hipercor, a bomb killed 20. Such attack lead to an interior conflict in the terrorist group, since most of them proclaimed such attack was against their philosophy because it was aimed at "innocents" (Well, I think all their victims are innocent, except for Carrero Blanco). So that made many members of the group to be kicked off. As you can see, it's not their style, they are horrible, yes, asassins, yes, but they would never get that far. And if they say they didn't do it, I'm inclined to believe them: ETA may be monsters, but they are not liars.

And anyone saying this happened because Spain supported the USA in its war on terrorism is a self-deluded impotent fool. It happened because Spain is a democratic, Christian, western nation. That's it. No other reasons beyond these ones exist.

Yes, of course, except that all the videos and letters from Al Quaeda refered to this attacks as a revenge for supporting US. Also, Spain is not a christian nation, according to the constitution, we are not religious. Also, the past goverment was Catholic (Lots of Opus Dei...*vomits*) but the new one is mainly formed by atheists and agnostics, and some moderate christians.

...And if Spain hadn't backed the invasion of Iraq, then the US would've punished them with trade restrictions and by denying them the right to administer humanitarian aid in post-war Iraq.

Or not. I can't understand how Aznar supported Bush when three million people in the street shouted "No to war". However, Chile, for example, opposed to war but did not get punished. The difference here is that Chile had no interests in Iraq, so they just said they thought there were other ways of solving the problem in Iraq and backed off, but without making a lot of noise. Same with Mexico, I believe. France and Germany, however, attempted to stop Bush, and thats what made Dubya pissed.

Hopefully we won't get the same situation that arose in the US after September 11, 2001, where numerous Muslims, Arabs and Sikhs became the targetes of hatred just for belonging to the "wrong" culture... suspicion and fear like that can easily tear a nation apart if it's not resovled quickly

Well, I'm afraid racism here exists since before the attacks. Did you know what our defense minister, Federico Trillo, said when leaving the microphone on? That he would send immigrant soldiers to Iraq, because if they were killed, people would not care so much. Yes, it is sad, but thats how things are going.

I also hate how the past goverment attempted to promote patriotism here. After all, the last goverment descended from those fascists in the dictatorship, and trust me, this ones are not too different, only they are more...uh...democratic (Meaning better make up). I think PP forgot Spain is not like USA, here we come from a fascist dictatorship that prosecuted anyone who didn't feel proud of the flag, here we HATE THE DAMN FLAG. Actually, most people that come from other countires can't understand it, but hell, Spain is a divided nation, we are not all "united under one flag under god" or whatever, we are all disgregated and tired of flags. Yet the goverment put a gigantic flag in Columbus Square and said they would do a little ceremony in the honor of the flag every month. Obviously, the public opinion, specially from Catalonia and Basque country, shouted against it and they had to suspend the ceremonies. Good thing, the first one (and only) was pathetic enough, with Trillo shouting "HAIL SPAIN, HAIL THE KING". God, our king was probably laughning his ass off. A friend from Madrid told me that gigantic flag was now hanging in half pole, and that it touched the floor. "Of course, the floor was all clean with dirt, dog sh¡t and drunk man puke and the flag had to come and litter it"- and those were my friend's words.

God, they should just know Spain will never be united, Spain has developed through history as different communities, we are different cultures and mentalities, even different languages. How do you expect to unite them all?

Please don't get around the swear filter. --Unne

[Dr Unne]

Sad that Spain is going to leave Iraq now. I hate to think that a government would submit to the whims of terrorists. But you say the majority of the population in Spain opposes being in Iraq, and I don't know whether that's due to fear or something else, so who knows.

God, they should just know Spain will never be united, Spain has developed through history as different communities, we are different cultures and mentalities, even different languages. How do you expect to unite them all?

Same is true of any country. Certainly true of the US, but we get along fine as one nation.

[Shadow Nexus]

Sad that Spain is going to leave Iraq now. I hate to think that a government would submit to the whims of terrorists.

Actually, it was in their program. Zapatero promised to make the troops return if he won, and that was far before the terrorist attack.

But you say the majority of the population in Spain opposes being in Iraq, and I don't know whether that's due to fear or something else, so who knows.

Well, we oposed to war to begin with, so obviously we never wanted trhe troups there. And now, yes, add fear, if we already didn't like them there (Thats why PP lost the elections) we have yet another reason to make them return. Now that Aznar is rotting in his house, it's time to fix all the things he did governing against us, and I am not talking only about the war, he screwed many things inside Spain too....god, the country is a ruin...

[Skogs]

Would Zapatero have won the elections if it weren't for the bombings? If 91% of Spaniards wanted their troops out of Iraq anyway, it seems to me as if the bombings wouldn't have made much difference to the election results. Just a thought. So I guess you could say that the bombings were a way for Al Qaeda to take credit for splitting the US-Spain alliance, which probably wouldn't have lasted much longer anyway...

[Wind Shear]

Originally posted by Dr Unne
Sad that Spain is going to leave Iraq now. I hate to think that a government would submit to the whims of terrorists. But you say the majority of the population in Spain opposes being in Iraq, and I don't know whether that's due to fear or something else, so who knows.

God, they should just know Spain will never be united, Spain has developed through history as different communities, we are different cultures and mentalities, even different languages. How do you expect to unite them all?

Same is true of any country. Certainly true of the US, but we get along fine as one nation.

Same situation here in Philippines. I love the country, the people and the places, BUT I REALLY HATE THE SERIOULY DIRTY POLITICS!