a tad controversial

[The Captain]

Education, Education, Education. That's what Iraq needs more than a forced democracy. If and when Iraq and its citizens understands exactly what the rights and responsiblities of having a democracy is, then I think they'd be better off. America should brush up on this topic too.

Hypothetical:

If Iraq gets the power handed over to them in June, then vote for a Religious Leader, who would possibly institute a theocracy, to govern the country, would America be in the right to reject this election?

I believe that if the Iraqi people are given a real education on various ideals, not just American beliefs, but just general tolerance towards others, then they will see that mixing religion and law isn't the way to really go and actually be able to create a stable government that preaches tolerance not just among all religions, but among all people, women included.

Just one person's opinion.

Take care all.

[Big D]

[q=DocFrance]Terrorism is evil. Terrorism is defined by deliberately attacking innocent civillians in an attempt to instill terror in the populace. How could that not be evil?[/q]That's exactly what the allies did to countries such as Germany and Japan during the Second World War.[q=DocFrance]Well, we are hitting back, but that's not all we're doing. We're also improving things over there so that they don't feel the need to hit us any more.[/q]That, and inadvertently killing thousands of innocent bystanders in the process, then refusing to be accountable for their deaths, in spite of the fact that they're not only foreseeable but expected. Imagine if Al Qaeda said that the World Trade Center buildings were their real target, and the people inside were merely "collateral casualties" and not a real concern... don't think anyone would feel better.[q=eestlinc]I agree that rebuilding and fixing Iraq/Afghanistan/etc is good, but there is also the problem that the whole attitude of "let us come in and fix your problems/show you the way" is very insulting to many people of the world.[/q]Definitely. Some US leaders, be they political or military, are fond of observing that only their country knows how things "should" be done, and that anyone else just doesn't have a clue.

"Bringing tolerance and unity to the world" won't be achieved by forcing everyone to become the same; that'll just breed more discontent.

On a side note... actually, this's related to the thread's original topic:

Suppose someone thinks that Chechnya should be given independence. Is that person "evil"? After all, they are expressing the same views as Islamic terrorists...

[Shadow Nexus]

Talus: Compare terrorists to serial killers if you want, but may I remind you you can actually fight back a serial killer, but fighting back a concept such as terrorism is not as easy. Terrorism is a concept, not tangible, it's not on a place, there is not a country called "terrorism" you can take over. And the current US policy uses violence that creates, death, that creates hate that creates terrorism. 11-S happened because the US was acting like it was acting, and even if it was by no menas justifiable, it was something that was going to happen, sooner or later. Cause, you know, this is not the end of history, and hegemonies are always condemned to fall. Well, not always, let's not be dogmatic: Hegemonies have always fallen until modern days, and the US is very likely to fall too. Don't ask me how, I just hope Oppenheimer wasn't too right when he quoted Rig-Veda saying "I am the destructor of everything".

[Dr Unne]

A mentally disabled child kills a man. Who cares why or who? Kill the kid. Obviously this is extreme, but you've said yourself that the best way to test logic is to take it to the extreme. --Emerald Aeris

If it's possible to stop him without killing him, sure, lock him up instead. If he's running through the streets killing people though, and if killing him is the only way to do it, then yeah, he needs to be killed.

I'm not in favor of shoot first and ask questions later. That's not what the US does anyways. We captured Saddam; we could've killed him, but we didn't. He's going to get a trial. I'm sure that whenever it's possible to try to capture terrorists without killing them, we make that effort. But if it involves putting our troops at risk, there's just no reason to do so just to save the terrorists.

You seem mostly to agree with me, so I don't understand what you think the US is doing that's wrong.

I agree that rebuilding and fixing Iraq/Afghanistan/etc is good, but there is also the problem that the whole attitude of "let us come in and fix your problems/show you the way" is very insulting to many people of the world.

Tough crap if people are insulted. Some peopel deserve to be insulted. You go around torturing and murdering your own citizens, you deserve much more than insults. The Iraqis didn't fix their own problems. They should've. Once their problems start spilling over into the world at large, then it's our problem, and at least we're willing to fix it.

Education, Education, Education. That's what Iraq needs more than a forced democracy. --The Captain

That's why dictators keep their citizens stupid by any means necessary. So when the Taliban outlaws education for women, what do you do? Wait for the Taliban to change their minds, and then introduce democracy? Freedom is necessary for education. Freedom is necessary for human rights in general.

[The Captain]

"That's why dictators keep their citizens stupid by any means necessary. So when the Taliban outlaws education for women, what do you do? Wait for the Taliban to change their minds, and then introduce democracy? Freedom is necessary for education. Freedom is necessary for human rights in general."

How do you know what freedom is, unless you have an education though?

Take care all.

[Cloud No.9]

Terrorists can and must be negotiated with. look at what happened in ireland. the fighting and bombing never stopped until the good friday agreement. the war on terrorism isn't one that can be won by surrender or invasion and we can't kill all of them. the only possible conclsuion to such a war would be that both sides make an agreement as the IRA did. do't be deluded into thinking there is anyway of beating terrorism by force. the answer to the worlds problems are by compromises and compromises alone.

[Talus]

Originally posted by Cloud No.9
the answer to the worlds problems are by compromises and compromises alone.

You must live in some magical utopia, if you think force is never necessary you have too much faith in the human race.

[The Captain]

That may be true, but I hope that force is always the last method used, not the first. When people of the world begin to force each other before anything else, that will spell only more death and destruction.

Take care all.

[Emerald Aeris]

Originally posted by Talus
You must live in some magical utopia, if you think force is never necessary you have too much faith in the human race.

You people jump to conclusions too much. He didn't say force is never necessary.

I think what he meant was that you're not going to kill terrorism out of existance. It's too widespread. It won't stop until both sides agree to stop. All he said was that it won't stop until then, not that we shouldn't ever fight.

[Talus]

Saying you can't kill all the terrorists doesn't mean a thing. You can't catch all criminals yet we still have police. Just because a task is difficult doesn't make it not worthwhile.

[Emerald Aeris]

My point is that killing them all isn't a solution. It's not going to stop them. Killing all the terrorists shouldn't be the goal, peace should. Which means discussions will be necessary, just JUST force. Are you saying killing all the terrorists is worthwhile?

[Big D]

Only three months after the first IRA bombing, Westminster was negotiating with them. Now, if they'd followed America's more recent example, they'd have started bombng "terrorist targets" all over Northern Ireland rather than trying to talk. In stead of peace, we'd now have a situation where desperate survivors from devastated Irish towns willingly accept assignments to strike back at the murderous force that killed and oppressed so many of their kin. Britian would keep responding to each new attack with fresh retaliation; in short, we'd have a miniature - or not-so-miniature - version of what's being repeated around the world.

[Garland]

You have to understand who you're dealing with, in order to determine if negotiations are worthwhile. Why is the enemy fighting you? In the case of the IRA and the UK, the IRA fought for goals that could be reasonably accomodated. Territory and independence are compromisable. In the case of Al Qaeda, I'm under the impression that they won't back down untill the US is an Islamic theocracy much in the image of Iran or Taleban Afghanistan. That's not compromisable. Israel and Palestine are in a conflict of the sort that should in theory be negotiable - questions of independence and territory are theoretically easily solved. In short, some enemies are worthy of negotiation and compromise, and others are not, and even if compromise should be simple, it often isn't, once ego's get in the way of rational thinking.

[Emerald Aeris]

Some people are worthy to talk to, and others you just kill? That's pretty wrong, to say that least. You're "under the impression" of a reason that can't be compromised, so you skip talking peace and shoot to kill? You don't even know! You could at least know for sure without deciding. Besides who knows what they'll say! You have no clue at all what would happen if you tried negotiations. I think that's a pretty sick viewpoint to be honest. These are people's LIVES. You are talking about killing people, and probably innocent ones along with the guilty. And you're suggesting just skipping peace talks because you're under the impression that they won't talk? This isn't a game of Risk. People are going to die as a result of that decision. I don't think it should be based on that you're under the impression of anything, or ever pretty sure. Be completely sure that peace talks won't work before giving up. Not even attempting them is warmongering.

[Shadow Nexus]

You must live in some magical utopia, if you think force is never necessary you have too much faith in the human race.

"Opening a school is closing a prision"
-Victor Hugo