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Thread: a tad controversial

  1. #46
    ORANGE Dr Unne's Avatar
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    You have to understand who you're dealing with, in order to determine if negotiations are worthwhile. --Garland

    I still say that even if a terrorist's goals are extremely easy to fulfull, they don't deserve them. If I blow up a train full of people, then put a bomb in another train and say "Give me a sandwich or I'll kill more people!", are you saying I should be given my sandwich and sent on my way? No. I should be hunted down like a dog for being a killer.

    Making a deal with someone requires that both sides of the deal are entering the deal willingly. When one side has a bomb planted next to the other side, there is no willingness. Making a deal with someone requires that both sides have good faith that the other will honor that deal. When one side shows that they have no regard even for the lives of innocent people, how can you trust ANYTHING they say, or say they'll do? When a "deal" is initiated by violence, by definition no "deal" is possible. To attempt to reason with someone like that, to rely on their honor or their word, is stupidity of the highest degree. What happens when they decide the deal isn't good enough any longer and they want more, and they happen to have more bombs? And you've already proven that you're willing to submit to force with no resistance; why SHOULDN'T they keep using force? How much are we willing to give, for the sake of "peace"? Can you even call that peace; surrendering to your enemies, and trying to keep him happy enough so he doesn't murder you?

    Do we live in a world where you can get anything you want if you have enough bombs to scare people into giving it to you? I certainly hope not.

    These are people's LIVES. You are talking about killing people, and probably innocent ones along with the guilty.

    If innocent people die during the hunt for terrorists, blame the terrorists for STARTING the violence to begin with. If there was a guy with a nuclear bomb on in a briefcase, and he was sitting in a room full of babies making demands, if I had a clear shot at killing that guy, I'd do it in a second, no matter how many babies I killed. Even if I had to shoot every baby in the room. And it wouldn't be my fault in any sense. If you let the bad guys dictate the terms, and let them use your own views and values against you, you're as good as defeated. You're giving the bad guys power over yourself. How much are you willing to sacrifice? Because there is no limit to how much an evil person is willing to take.

    In Vietnam apparently they used little girls as snipers. In some wars apparently they sometimes strap bombs to little tiny children and send them after the other side. In Iraq they'd often house troops in hospitals and schools and schools, from what I know. Would you just sit there and die, because you have to kill an innocent person? And when all the "good" people are dead, for fear of hurting innocent people, then what? If killing innocent people is necessary to get rid of evil men who have, can, and will kill even MORE innocent people, then it's your DUTY to kill innocent people if necessary to stop those evil men. Only if necessary. Do no more than you have to, but definitely do no less.

    This reminds me of the old fairy tales where a dragon is in a cave and demands 10 virgin daughters from the nearby village every year, or else he'll destroy the whole town, and so the villagers do it. THAT attitude, that surrender to evil, is what makes me sick. Willingness to sacrifice everything that should be dear to you, for example your own safety, your own values, your own right to exist without living under the threat of violence, that makes me sick.

  2. #47

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    Originally posted by Dr Unne
    Do we live in a world where you can get anything you want if you have enough bombs to scare people into giving it to you? I certainly hope not.
    Notice how many of the "Axis of Evil" (or whatever you're calling the states you bomb because wars can be reported whereas covert action cannot) began to co-operate after the US's show of force in Iraq? I wonder why that was? Of course, when we do it it's okay because we have Democracy and God on you sides, right? We're completely different from those crazy fundamentalists!

    Originally posted by Dr Unne
    If innocent people die during the hunt for terrorists, blame the terrorists for STARTING the violence to begin with.
    Hmm, I see. Terrorists are actually to blame for their enemies actions. WOW THAT MAKES LOADSA SENSE. Yet, looking at it from the terrorists persepctives, surely WE are to blame for their actions? Since you could argue that our killing of people in their countries is what moved them to act against innocent people? I know, you're thinking "But they have other reasons as well!" Well, so does the US. Besides that, is attacking a nation an adequate response to the actions of individuals? Doesn't seem to make any sense, physimaster

    Originally posted by Dr Unne
    Would you just sit there and die, because you have to kill an innocent person? And when all the "good" people are dead, for fear of hurting innocent people, then what? If killing innocent people is necessary to get rid of evil men who have, can, and will kill even MORE innocent people, then it's your DUTY to kill innocent people if necessary to stop those evil men. Only if necessary. Do no more than you have to, but definitely do no less.
    Okay? Was that a piece of satire? If so, it was exquisite! Otherwise....

    Congrats! You're an extremist! You probably have more in common with the terrorists than the moderates on your own side! Now go blow up a hospital because you have Good/God/something else on your side!

    I also find it funny, you expect the terrorists to be perfectly reasonable when we attack them, and when they attack us, they're EVIL. What the ****?

  3. #48
    Hypnotising you crono_logical's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Dr Unne
    If killing innocent people is necessary to get rid of evil men who have, can, and will kill even MORE innocent people, then it's your DUTY to kill innocent people if necessary to stop those evil men. Only if necessary. Do no more than you have to, but definitely do no less.
    I don't know if I can even comment on that. Anyone thinking it's their duty to kill innocents because they used their own (flawed human) logic to come to that conclusion is a terrorist to those innocent groups you feel you must kill.
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  4. #49
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    KILL THE FANATICS!


  5. #50

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    If it's going to save lives, give them the damn sandwich. If you're killing innocents to get to the bad guys, aren't you just as bad as them? Just because you were attacked first doesn't mean that you're not killing people!

    I think we should focus on the preservation of life, you seem to think we should stand up to evil at all costs. That's the difference between our views.

    Edit: I think it should be handled like a hostage situation. You don't just barge in, because then lives will be lost. You handle the situation delicately and negotiate. Also with a little force at the right moment to arrest the criminal. Barging in and killing the criminal and the hostage isn't a very good way of going about things.

    Sure if you take out the bad guy and lose the hostage in the process you know no more lives will be lost that MIGHT have been lost, but the hostage is definitley dead. I don't think killing innocent people to prevent deaths that might happen is right.

  6. #51
    ORANGE Dr Unne's Avatar
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    Notice how many of the "Axis of Evil" (or whatever you're calling the states you bomb because wars can be reported whereas covert action cannot) began to co-operate after the US's show of force in Iraq? I wonder why that was? --Duo

    Faulty analogy. Did the US plant bombs on trains and say "Do what we say or we'll kill innocent people on purpose"? No. The US said "Attack us and we'll defend ourselves". Did the US go attack France because they didn't aid us? Did we go kill random innocent French people? Obviously not.

    I wonder why that was? Of course, when we do it it's okay because we have Democracy and God on you sides, right?

    I'm not sure who you're talking to now, since no one has said anything similar to that. "Attacking a really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking." is the name of the particular logical fallacy you're using.

    Hmm, I see. Terrorists are actually to blame for their enemies actions. WOW THAT MAKES LOADSA SENSE.

    Whoever attacks first is to blame. Say someone starts a high-speed chase with the police, and the police wreck and hit a school bus in the process and kill little kids. Would you blame the policemen for being murderers? No, you'd blame the criminal who made the police chase NECESSARY.

    Say the car was full of explosives and headed for a school building, and the cop has a choice; ram the car off the road, and possibly kill one or two innocent people standing there, or do nothing and let far, far more almost certainly be killed. The cop doesn't KNOW what will happen if he lets the car go. He only has his judgment; he knows it's extremely likely that letting the car go = thousands dead, and ramming the car = 2 dead.. Should the cop say "I can't purposefully kill innocent people! It's wrong!", and so do nothing, and let thousands die? Or should he make his best effort to minimize death?

    Should we tip-toe around, being sure not to hurt anyone but evil people, and in the process, through not giving our best effort, allow those evil people to escape and kill even MORE innocent people in the long run?

    Yet, looking at it from the terrorists persepctives, surely WE are to blame for their actions? Since you could argue that our killing of people in their countries is what moved them to act against innocent people

    If terrorized the terrorists without provocation, we would be to blame, and they'd have the right to defend themselves. We haven't.

    Congrats! You're an extremist! You probably have more in common with the terrorists than the moderates on your own side! Now go blow up a hospital because you have Good/God/something else on your side!

    Feel free to show me how I'm wrong instead of resorting to mockery and name-calling. It doesn't help your argument.

    I also find it funny, you expect the terrorists to be perfectly reasonable when we attack them, and when they attack us, they're EVIL. What the ****?

    I expect people not to attack us to begin with, and then they'll be left alone. If they do attack us, I expect them to die, or be captured and thrown into prisons.

    I don't know if I can even comment on that. Anyone thinking it's their duty to kill innocents because they used their own (flawed human) logic to come to that conclusion is a terrorist to those innocent groups you feel you must kill. --Guu

    You're saying I should let terrorists kill me if they happen to be ruthless enough to use innocent people as tools to kill me. So you believe that being the most ruthless and evil person in a conflict should decide the victor? And you believe avoiding killing one person in the short-term is OK, even if a thousand more will die in the future because of inaction?

    So logic is automatically flawed because it's human? Then I can safely disregard your comments. Thanks.

    If it's going to save lives, give them the damn sandwich. --Emerald Aeris

    How do you know it will save lives? You have exactly ONE piece of evidence to lead you to that conclusion: the guy with the bombs tells you if you appease him, he'll be good. You have no guarantee other than the word of a murderer.

    Kill the guy, and you are 100% guaranteed he will do nothing. Why are you willing to gamble with innocent lives?

    If you're killing innocents to get to the bad guys, aren't you just as bad as them? Just because you were attacked first doesn't mean that you're not killing people!

    I would be killing people because I was forced to do so. It would be no different than if someone put the gun in my hand and pulled the trigger for me.

    I think we should focus on the preservation of life, you seem to think we should stand up to evil at all costs.

    No, I also focus on the preservation of life. I believe that standing up to evil at all costs saves more lives in the long run than letting the world be run and overrun by criminals.

    I think it should be handled like a hostage situation. You don't just barge in, because then lives will be lost.

    Absolutely. All effort should be given to avoid innocent deaths. But in hostage situations, the bad guy DOES get taken down eventually. He is never let to go free. And if he DOES start shooting hostages, and he has more in there with him, then the cops DO barge in and start shooting, don't they? They don't go on a rampage and kill every innocent person they see. But neither do they tiptoe in and let themselves be killed because they're too hesitant to do what needs to be done, or just sit outside and hope nothing bad happens, or give the bad guy whatever he wants and pretend everything will be OK now. Taking innocent life is something that absolutely should be avoided at all costs, but to say it's never, ever justified is wrong. And to say that it's the fault of the people who are being victimized by the bad guys in the first place is also wrong.

    I don't think killing innocent people to prevent deaths that might happen is right.

    Your "might happen" is very weak, if a terrorist has already killed people, and has the means and the will to do so again. I don't know how much more certain you can be that the threat is real, and the chances of more innocent deaths at the hands of terrorists is almost a certainty.

  7. #52
    Dark Knights are Horny Garland's Avatar
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    Negotiations should be between recognized politicians. If I had a say in how these issues were handled, no terrorist would be negotiated with. Nor would any other criminal be able to negotiate his cause. Some people don't deserve the privelages being "human" supposedly brings. Terrorists will never be right in their point of view because they're terrorists. Being a terrorist makes you wrong. However, the endeavor for "human rights" has gone so far, that the criminal has more rights than the victim, and rather than endanger the precious life of a terrorist, we'd prefer to pay them off at a negotiation table. If the terrorist kills an innocent hostage, it's not his fault - he was driven to that point by the evils committed by the victims. I don't understand why we try so hard to "understand" terrorists. I'm glad I don't understand them. If I could understand and rationalize what they do (and even excuse it as right?), I'd probably be one. As long as I can declare myself above them without any hesitation, I know my morals are in the right place.
    Knock yourselves down.

  8. #53

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    "Faulty analogy. Did the US plant bombs on trains and say "Do what we say or we'll kill innocent people on purpose"? No. The US said "Attack us and we'll defend ourselves". Did the US go attack France because they didn't aid us? Did we go kill random innocent French people? Obviously not."

    No, but we did go into Iraq when it had nothing to do with terrorism, so a similar analogy can be made if you compare us to how we went about ending terrorism, by invading a country that had nothing to do with the events. Iraq was ripe for the picking, let's be honest. Saddam had no allies in other nations, so if we toppled him we wouldn't have to pay the piper to any of his allies. In my best guess, that's why we haven't gone after Saudi Arabia yet, because they have alliances and we'd definitely provoke something much bigger if we attempted to go in there.

    If America's goals truly were benevolent, why haven't we tried to topple every dictator there is in the world? Why stop at Iraq? What about North Korea, Cuba, and other countries whose citizens are oppressed? I think the reasons we went in were truly mixed in the first place. Our hands haven't been clean for centuries when it comes to helping other nations. We stood by when Hitler was killing millions, and even when he had begun to dominate Europe, we only barely came in at the end. We don't attack usually, until provoked, which is also what made the "pre-emptive" strike on Iraq so shocking. It was a drastic shift in policy.

    I believe if 9/11 hadn't occured, terrorism wouldn't have ever been an issue with this administration. We'd have invaded Iraq for one reason or the other because the cabinet was SO set in going there anyway, and we'd all be discussing why terrorism is such an issue but is never mentioned.... yet, here we are anyway, even though we're supposedly at war with this concept.

    To jump back on to topic now, I think there is a very big distinction between terrorist and "Freedom fighter". I think that both are sometimes mistaken for the other, but the differences are very important. A terrorist functions solely to create terror and destrcution, in order to create chaos out of a government they disapprove of. A "Freedom fighter" is someone doesn't resort to terror to invoke their will. Sure, they may use violence, but not terror. They direct it right at the party they seek to overthrow, not at innocents who are viewed just as potential targets for attacks. In short, no terrorist can ever be justified for their actions, but you can possibly make a case for a "freedom fighter".

    Let's bring the troops home and send the Bush Administration into Iraq to keep it safe!

    Take care all.

  9. #54
    Dark Knights are Horny Garland's Avatar
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    Isn't it possible that the ends can justify the means? I agree that the preemptive strike on Iraq was wrong. I don't think preemptive strikes are ever right. However, looking at the results, and seeing that Saddam Hussein (who I hope even the most ardent terrorist apologists can agree is a psychotic dictator) is out of power, and the people are at least in theory, safe; the preemptive strike doesn't seem quite so wrong. My only criticism of the whole matter is the lying. If Bush had said flat out, "I want Saddam dead or jailed for life, and here's how I'm going to send the army to make it so", I'd have admired his ambition. Instead, I'm embarrassed that my president was caught in a rather large and useless lie.
    Knock yourselves down.

  10. #55

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    lol everyone shut up already, if this was 20 years ago, you'd probably be supporitng the Mujahideen and talking about how Russians are terrorists or evil

    Cloud_no9's reasoning is justified. What they're simply doing is assisting in fighting off a colonizing super power, they have a right to.

  11. #56
    Scatter, Senbonzakura... DocFrance's Avatar
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    It doesn't matter what we would be saying 20 years ago. This is the present. If this was twenty years ago, I'd barely be able to gurgle out a few spit bubbles.

    You say they have "the right" to commit these acts of terrorism just because you think they're being "colonized?" Even if that were true, would that still give them the right to kill whoever they want?

    The minute you start attacking and killing innocent civillians is the minute you cross the line from being a freedom fighter to a terrorist.
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  12. #57
    A Big Deal? Recognized Member Big D's Avatar
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    That's a good point. Resisting a military occupation through force is, sometimes, arguably a legitimate fight... but then, innocents from both sides are inevitably caught up in the fighting. "Freedom fighter" and "terrorist" are often interchangeable, depending on perspective.

    Anti-Marxist fighters in 1980s Central America = 'Terrorists' to many; 'freedom fighters' to those opposed to communism.

    Anti-apartheid fighters in 1980s South Africa = 'terrorists' to the South African government of the time, 'freedom fighters' to everyone else in the world.

    There are countless other examples, too - the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan, present-day militants in Chechnya... the list goes on.

    However, 'fighting for freedom' can't ever justify the slaying of innocents - anyone's innocents - in my opinion.

  13. #58

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    Moxie, who exactly is your post directed towards? Besides, Russians can't be terrorists, they just can't afford it. Just kidding.

    Take care all.

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    it's nice to see this is back on topic. as has been pointed out views on people change on perspective. and while docfrance attacking civillians may be wrong it is a last resort in any persons book. america's elections are no longer internationally monitored and so are open to corruption which could prevent politics being an option to change things. america refuses to recognise the world court and has said it will not allow itself to be tried for war crimes and so the law can not be used against them. civil rights are being "suspended" to an extent where as i'm not sure if the stuff i'm writing here right now is legal. so freedom of speech and protest could also be rendered useless. what other choice do people have? i've already outline a "legal" war which could be fought which i believe is the only way for the people to win a system in america that not only works for it's people but for the entire world.

  15. #60
    Scatter, Senbonzakura... DocFrance's Avatar
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    I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill. Since when have US elections ever been internationally monitored, and how would that prevent corruption? The US is its own country. You say that politics are no longer an option to change things? Why do you say that, or are you just saying that to rock the boat? You say that you're worried about what you say here being illegal, and that there's no more freedom of speech? Like I said, you're blowing everything way out of proportion.

    I'd like to see some solid evidence on any of these matters. If they're true, and I know they're not, then it means I'm not doing my job.

    If you don't live in the US, then you are greatly misinformed about this country. If you do, than you must live in a cave, because I don't see how anyone could come to such extreme conclusions about the state of living in the US.
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