So how do you compare Sharon's actions (killing murderers who threaten the existence of all the people who voted for him) to Yassin's action (killing women and children who never did squat to him)?
So how do you compare Sharon's actions (killing murderers who threaten the existence of all the people who voted for him) to Yassin's action (killing women and children who never did squat to him)?
To do is to be. (Sokrates)
To be is to do. (Sartre)
Do be do be do. (Sinatra)
I hope you're not drawing comparisons between the relationship between the US and bin Laden and the relationship between Israel and the Palestinians. Just because Israel's terrorism is condoned by their government doesn't mean that it's okay and above retaliation. Picking favorites between two groups of terrorists doesn't make sense; both sides have hands bathed in blood.Originally posted by Nemesis the Warlock
If the US had assassinated Osama bin Laden after 9/11, would you complain?
That is all very well, except the facts are different. I might be biased because I'm the only gentile participant of this thread who's been to Israel. But it's a difference whether you have the blood of murdering Fellaheen on your hands, or innocent civilians. In my experience, the Israelis target terrorists, the Arabs civilians. And the Israelis don't trick handicapped 12-year olds into fighting for them. How is the Hamas killing innocent Israelis different from Osama killing innocent Americans?
To do is to be. (Sokrates)
To be is to do. (Sartre)
Do be do be do. (Sinatra)
Oh, I think hatred towards Jews and Israel has a lot to do with the Holocaust. So, today, it's not very politically correct to slander Jews - so you take shots at their country, Israel, saying it's 'legitimate criticism'. This 'criticism' has grown into monstrous proportions, questioning the very right of Israel for existence. Needless to say, without the Jewish state, there is little hope for the survival of Jews anywhere on the globe.I LIKE THE WAY YOU TRY TO USE THE HOLOCAUST TO JUSTIFY SOMETHIEN TOTALLY UNREALTED LOLOLOLO
Nemesis the Warlock - thanks for sticking up to me and Israel. I think that's a first here, and one of few anywhere on the web.
When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one yourself... when gazing into the abyss, bear in mind that the abyss also gazes into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
The rightful owner of this Ciddie can kiss my arse! :P
Looking at the practical side, ethics and morals aside, I don't understand what's so difficult about placing a sniper on a roof and take Yassin out. Instead, rockets were used, and of course other people were killed, and that's how it's been with many of these rocket attacks. I think that there would be less of an uproar if the israeli forces used less brute force and more precision. Just a theory.
(And War Angel, please don't be offended, but all criticism directed towards the state of Israel is not anti-semitism in disguise. Seriously, that's just being paranoid.)
Killing innocents is killing innocents, period. What I'm saying is that as a whole, Israel has done worse to Palestinians than the US has to bin Laden.Originally posted by Nemesis the Warlock
How is the Hamas killing innocent Israelis different from Osama killing innocent Americans?
That kind of comparison reminds me of the Saddam = Hitler argument, which is also bogus. It's not black and white. Saying that one totally different group of people/individual is exactly like another is a total over-simplification. There are 40,000 shades of grey in between the two extremes.
We're all far too close to our emotions to give a real justified opinion.
Neither side can claim to be more honorable than the other if the killing doesn't stop, plain and simple. I'm not defending either side anymore. This whole issue is getting just plain out of hand and needs to be stopped.
Take care all.
Why should Israel risk the life of that sniper?Looking at the practical side, ethics and morals aside, I don't understand what's so difficult about placing a sniper on a roof and take Yassin out.
The sources are. I don't here much of the same criticism against Palestinians by anyone other than Jews and Israelis.And War Angel, please don't be offended, but all criticism directed towards the state of Israel is not anti-semitism in disguise. Seriously, that's just being paranoid.)
When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one yourself... when gazing into the abyss, bear in mind that the abyss also gazes into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
The rightful owner of this Ciddie can kiss my arse! :P
Yes, mainly because along with those murderers, he kills innocents. Because you know, most murderers don't need to be killed, since they already are dead after the murder, because they are kamikazes. But then Sharon comes and bombs the house of the family. Or the "colateral damage" with each attack. Sorry, but that is murder.So how do you compare Sharon's actions (killing murderers who threaten the existence of all the people who voted for him) to Yassin's action (killing women and children who never did squat to him)?
Or are you denying that innocents die in Palestine?
They both suck. Happy with that? Because yes, I think Yassin was an asshole, but you know...I don't think that killing is going to bring peace, and I guess everyone agrees with me in that...The sources are. I don't here much of the same criticism against Palestinians by anyone other than Jews and Israelis.
That's the problem with "political correctness" these days. If you have a different opinion to someone from Israel, then that's irrefutable proof that you're a raving anti-Semite:rolleyes2
There's no justification for the despicalbe terrorist acts committed against the Israeli citizenry, and there never will be either. However, the Palestinian people do have legitimate grievances. Since the late '40s, they've been forced out of their lands progressively, losing homes and liberties to a nation that still hasn't defined its own borders. When terrorists attack Israel, everyone suffers - the innocent population of Israel, and the Palestinians killed or displaced by Israel's retaliatory onslaught.
However, some people simply can't see that terrorist groups like Hamas are not the entirety of the Palesinian people. "Hey, they're terrorists, let's annex and occupy their territories because they're evil". It doesn't work that way. Hamas' desire to annihilate Israel doesn't infect the entire Palestinian people; likewise, you can't blame every Israeli because of the few who said (for instance) that Israel is the rightful owner of all lands up to and beyond Damascus, or that there is no Palestinian people and therefore it's not genocide if they all die or get displaced.
I recall that, not long after the re-founding of Israel in the '40s, British soldiers in Palestine had quite a bit of trouble from Israeli "terrorists". They ultimately withdrew to leave the region to its own devices, but what would've happened if they'd responded in Israel's current manner?[q=War Angel]Jews have been a pain in Europe's ar$e for centuries now. 'Hey, the Holocaust didn't quite work out... and now they have a state. Whatever, let's see what we can do from here. '[/q]Uh, actually the world went out of its way to help out the Jewish people following the second world war. Hundreds of thousands of refugees were taken in all around the world; the international community banded together and gave the survivors their very own nation. It seems a little bit short-sighted to accuse the world of apathy. Israel has been using the Holocaust to justify its own terrible treatment of its neighbours at times - "we're the real victimes here".
A journalist asked a very interesting question recently... supppose that the international community had decided to put the new Israel inside Britian of the USA. I don't think either of those countries would've tolerated being forced to give up land and make way for a new country within their borders...
You recall correctly, I've read several articles refering to that, all from actual nespapers of the time (I love old newspapers).I recall that, not long after the re-founding of Israel in the '40s, British soldiers in Palestine had quite a bit of trouble from Israeli "terrorists".
It was really long ago, but it's kind of ironic they were the terrorists at first. I should take a look at those articles again sometime...
"That's the problem with "political correctness" these days. If you have a different opinion to someone from Israel, then that's irrefutable proof that you're a raving anti-Semite "
Sadly, the same seems to be holding true if you are against American politics, you're suddenly anti-democracy, or worse if you actually live here: you're a traitor. I love it when utter lunacy replaces rational thought..
Death only leads to death, regardless of justification. One can claim it is only to perserve their own race, but at the expense of another?
I hope for a time when we can all live in peace, and learn from one another, not attempt to blow each other apart.
Take care all.
From my experience, people who think others are calling them "traitors" are just overreacting in the face of criticism. After all, it is easier for someone to whine that he's being oppressed by a fascist society than to back up his argument.Originally posted by The Captain
Sadly, the same seems to be holding true if you are against American politics, you're suddenly anti-democracy, or worse if you actually live here: you're a traitor. I love it when utter lunacy replaces rational thought..
ARGUMENT FROM GUITAR MASTERY
(1) Eric Clapton is God.
(2) Therefore, God exists.
It's actually happened to me on more than one occation however, which can make the blood boil. I attended an anti-Iraq war rally and had stones and all sorts of insults thrown at me, which isn't always that pleasant.
It works both ways, people who throw out the word "Traitor" use it too flippantly as well in this day and age. We're not Benedict Arnolds here, we're just people who don't share a common point of view.
Take care all.
It makes my blood boil too. I gave up most of my personal freedom to protect the freedom of others, and I'll probably end up putting my life on the line for that very reason some time in the future. I don't like to see other people being called 'traitors' just for voicing their opinions.
The people throwing stones at you and such were probably just extremist right-wing loonies. Everyone has the right to free speech. Of course, I also think that the anti-war lot are a bunch of extremist left-wing loonies, so there you have it.
Just remember that freedom of speech doesn't make you immune to criticism. They have every right in the world to call you a traitor. Throwing rocks... is a different matter.
ARGUMENT FROM GUITAR MASTERY
(1) Eric Clapton is God.
(2) Therefore, God exists.
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