Why did it happen to Vivi? (spoiler warning)

[Camanche]

No, I get what you mean now. Maybe you overexaggerated just a little though.

[Gwelenguchenkus]

Maybe you overexaggerated just a little though.

Hmm... You're probably right.

[Monol]

Dude i always have tissues for a fellow FF fan but anyways...DUH im stubborn! But i belive there are diffrent kinds of stubborn...there are those who are PURE stubborn as i like to call it...are pepole that wont admit or respect anyone elses opinon but there own regardless of evidential proof...then theres folks like me ...who chose to be stubborn yet RESPECT other pepoles opinions and take them into consideration...regardless if there is no diffrence or not in your opinion ( i suck at wording things) im just trying to imply that im only being stubborn for the sake of my love towards vivi! not for the sake of the argument itself (such as being right or wrong) and for the record..there i just as much evidence supporting he lives too...it was never officialy announced if he died or not... so dont go thinking your opinions better than anyone elses *hands a tissue to TurkSlayer* glad to see a fellow cait sith lover..thing guy..

[Squall of SeeD]

and for the record..there i just as much evidence supporting he lives too...it was never officialy announced if he died or not...

What evidence would that be, if I may ask?

[TurkSlayer]

The only evidence is... I can't think of any. Thanks for the tissue, though. And Cait Sith rulz.

[Squall of SeeD]

The only evidence is... I can't think of any.

Nor can I, especially with foreshadowing in the game and Vivi's own words strongly inferring it to be the case. And that's before one even takes into account that he never shows up during the ending.

Really, I don't see why an official announcement would be necessary to convey that he's dead. As I said earlier in this Thread, writers tend to use the story itself to convey their intent for a story.

However, I am willing to listen to a view that holds that he is alive, so please do explain Monol.

[Monol]

Really, I don't see why an official announcement would be necessary to convey that he's dead. As I said earlier in this Thread, writers tend to use the story itself to convey their intent for a story.

Well said and i shall use the same evidence but first just let me say...between Aeris's death and vivi's there is quite a diffrence..now i realize i may seem to be straying off track but work with me here...when aeirs died...she died..we all knew it....you cant deny it..cause not only was it right there in front of your face but it also protained to the story...vivi's death...is a bit of a diffrent story...now as you stated quite wisely that we may not have seen his so called "demise" or "stopping" but we can use evidential proof from the game itself correct? Now with that i believe that it cant be stated full heartly regardless of this notion....vivi contemplated his death...sorrow..throughout the entire game...as stated through out this entire thread...we all know this... :rolleyes2 now from this we can assume one of two things at the end of the game...that one through his journy with his friends and zidane vivi was able to conquer death even though it was his destiny from the begining...his ability to be diffrent from the other black mages allowed him to gain the strength to live...OR...we can say that because of his sorrow and his journy with his friends..he was able to accept his fate and gain the courage to face the one thing he ultimatly feared....now this may not be REASONABLE evidence...but it works for me (as i said i am a vivi fan) so..take this as you will and your welcome for the tissue

[Camanche]

Well, it's certainly nice to see your attitude towards your own opinion.
Ahhh... refreshing.

As for me thinking my opinion is better... Well.. what I stated wasn't really an opinion. I think it would be nice if Vivi hadn't stopped, but I was just stating the fact that the game implied that he stopped, and quite clearly. As for an official statement.. well If you really want one, I heard that Square definately gave one, and will try to find it.

If you want to believe otherwise that is fine. Excellent. But I do have one question.

What do you think Vivi meant by that letter than? (And yes, Vivi DID write the letter in case you weren't sure, there is proof.)

[Squall of SeeD]

between Aeris's death and vivi's there is quite a diffrence

In terms of storytelling, I don't see much of a difference. Through a sword passing through her back and out her stomach, and then her lifeless body descending into a lake, the writers of VII showed us that Aerith is dead. Through us being flat-out told that the lifespan of the Black Mages was less than that of the rest of Gaia's dominant races, we know that they were all going to live short lives. Kuja said that the prototype (Vivi) would live longer, but he had already outlived the life expectancy of the rest of them by almost 9 years. Add to this the fact that Vivi's own words are a farewell to everyone followed by a line that beyond question shows that he was expecting his death, and we have a scenario that is hinting at it very strongly.

Follow that up with a scene in which he is absent whereas everyone else isn't, and we have confirmation of his death as much as is valued in storytelling as we did with seeing Aerith skewered and die in front of us.

Now with that i believe that it cant be stated full heartly regardless of this notion....vivi contemplated his death...sorrow..throughout the entire game...as stated through out this entire thread...we all know this... :rolleyes2 now from this we can assume one of two things at the end of the game...that one through his journy with his friends and zidane vivi was able to conquer death even though it was his destiny from the begining...his ability to be diffrent from the other black mages allowed him to gain the strength to live

Before I address the rest of this, I want to refer to your question:

now as you stated quite wisely that we may not have seen his so called "demise" or "stopping" but we can use evidential proof from the game itself correct?

Yes, evidence from the game would be what one would have to use. But in this case, there's not any evidence for the notion that Vivi could have found some strength to overcome his death. We're told that the Black Mages would have a shorter lifespan and this is never contradicted by anyone. Further, Vivi himself writes a letter of farewell to everyone before the reunion in which he openly accepts his death. The game doesn't show or imply that Vivi found some means or strength to overcome the physical act of dying, but, rather, found the strength to face his fears, enjoy the life that had been given to him, and accept it:

(Vivi's own words.)

"I always talked about you, Zidane. How you were a very special person to us, because you taught us all how important life is."
"You taught me that life doesn't last forever. That's why we have to help each other and live life to the fullest."
"Even if you say goodbye, you'll always be in our hearts. So, I know we're not alone anymore."
"Why I was born... How I wanted to live... Thanks for giving me time to think."
"To keep doing what you set your heart on... It's a very hard thing to do. We were all so courageous..."
"What to do when I felt lonely... That was the only thing you couldn't teach me. But we need to figure out the answer for ourselves..."
"I'm so happy I met everyone... I wish we could've gone on more adventures.
But I guess we all have to say goodbye someday."
"Everyone... Thank you. Farewell."
"My memories will be part of the sky..."

I'm a big fan of Vivi, as well. I adore the character. Yet, even so, I find that one would have to twist or ignore what is there and apply wishful thinking in regard to things that aren't to conclude that Vivi may have still been alive by the time of Zidane's return. He very plainly wasn't even there. Again, I'm a big fan of Vivi, yet there's no counter evidence for the evidence of his death. It's just the way the story was written and there's no way around that.


Thank you for your politeness in regard to the discussion, by the way. It's good to see.

[Monol]

Well, it's certainly nice to see your attitude towards your own opinion.
Ahhh... refreshing.


Is that sarcasim?


And anyways...WOW i had no idea about this letter! I must have completely forgotten it...Well as i said i wont argue with whats right there....im used to my favorite characters dieing...but this time it was diffrent...i felt truly attached to vivi...but this letter makes the ending to be MUCH MUCH better! I know appreciate the game much more now....dont get me wrong...ill still be stubborn as ever towards my main man vivi ....but i will gladly allow pepole to claim that he died....it works either way thank you for a worthy (if you would call it that ) argument and my hats off to you both...(cant believe being the fan i am i missed that letter! jeez o man...)

Oh and thanks for the whole "politness" compliment...

[Camanche]

No, I wasn't being sarcastic about my comment. I was being dead serious.

As for the letter: the reason I am asking what you think of it is because the contents of the letter help PROVE Vivi's death. That's why I want to know what you interpret it as, if you believe Vivi is still alive, while the letter helps to prove otherwise.

[Monol]

Oh ok...just makin sure

Now then...my response to the letter? Well it does seem pretty clear that vivi is gone...however being the fan that i am and having read this letter..i have came to a new conclusion

It states "My memories will be part of the sky"...now when vivi "stopped"...he left somthing that no other black mage could not...because of his journy and as i stated earlier his bearings with his friends vivi was capable of learing the ultimate leason of life and death...because of his phenominal and absolute power however a divine spirit was forged through his death...and from this created what i will call "AVM" (awsome, viv, mist? ok ill work on the name :rolleyes2 ) and from his very spirit and his perspective upon life...he gave life to others (the vivi's you see at the end of the game) for within each of them...is a little bit of vivi...his spirit...lives on...so that others may enjoy life...as he tried to do...his sacrifice...for his friends...and others...was not in vain...so in this conclusion i can say that vivi is still alive and gone

*raises fist* go vivi..*tear* you the man...you always..and forever will be..in life and death...my favorite ff character...

[Squall of SeeD]

Well, in that sense, everyone lives on in someway. When someone dies in the worlds of (at least) Final Fantasy VII, IX, and The Spirits Within, their Spirit Energy just returns to the Lifestream/Gaia/"light" and gets used again eventually in a new life form. In addition to their Spirit Energy going back, their memories go with it and become part of the swell of souls within the Planet, allowing it to live on and grow.

Granted, this is a bit more unique a situation, in which you're suggesting that upon his death, his Spirit Energy dispersed and coalesced into these other Vivis. It's one of the possibilities for the origin of his sons, definitely, and probably the most likely one. For that matter, FFVII, VIII, IX, X, X-2, and The Spirits Within show that memories themselves have power, so with what great lessons that Vivi's learned in his short life, he would supply a lot of growing potential to the "light" or Spirit Energy in general.

By the way, "Vivi" is Latin for "Alive," and with these other things in mind, I wouldn't be at all surprised if new life came as a result of his passing in the manner you speak. Also, Vivi's sons having his memories would explain why one of the Vivis knew that Puck was the Prince of Burmecia.

[Monol]

"Life" huh? thats pretty kewl...so you dig my theory then?

Well thats my view on all this...appreciate the info fella's...i now love vivi even more thanks for posting that letter...is that what all those little ending things are then? that makes sense then :rolleyes2

horray for little vivi! things...!

[Squall of SeeD]

"Life" huh? thats pretty kewl...so you dig my theory then?

In a word, "yes."

In fact, I've now compiled a new entry for my Final Fantasy IX Plot Analysis document in the Final Fantasy IX section of GameFAQs. I had always considered the possibility of the "Vivi Juniors" being formed from Vivi's Spirit Energy after his death to be the most likely origin, but until last night, an idea for what could have engineered this didn't strike me.

But it has now, and here's what I've determined:

(Note that Spoilers from Final Fantasy VII, VIII, IX, X, and The Spirits within will be present in this document.)
________________________________________________________

(SPOILER)One of the most enduring questions of Final Fantasy IX is "Where did Vivi's sons come from?" Speculation has run anywhere from "Vivi died and they formed from his spiritual energy as it dispersed" to "Vivi used the machines in Dali to create more Black Mages like himself [before his death]" to "They're Vivi and Quina's children" to even "They're Vivi and Eiko's children." In all honesty, it's not simple to make an easy determination simply because there's so little explicit evidence offered by the game with which to make a
determination.

While some have cited Vivi and Quina's marriage in Conde Petie as evidence toward the small Black Mages being their offspring, it is impossible to corroborate such a claim for various reasons:

1) The marriage occurs in an optional scene that the player does not necessarily have to activate.
2) The marriage will only take place for the purpose of granting Vivi and Quina passage to the Conde Petie Mountain Path, not for any emotional bond between Vivi and Quina.
3) Quina's gender is unknown (if he/she even has a set-gender).
4) It's unknown whether it is even possible for Black Mages to sexually reproduce in the first place.
5) It's not known whether or not Qu reproduce through sexual interaction.
6) Supposing that it were possible for Black Mages to sexually reproduce and that Vivi had reached sexual maturity, it is not known whether or not it would even be possible for a Black Mage and a Qu to reproduce together.

For that matter, Vivi's sons do not arrive with Quina, nor do they sit with Quina in the audience during the Play in Alexandria.

Quina having anything to do with the matter is entirely unfounded and not a possibility that should be inquired into any further due to the extreme lack of evidence. Likewise in regard to Eiko, as well as the likelihood that Eiko had not even yet reached sexual maturity (she was six years old during the game after all; based on everyone looking pretty much the same during the ending, it's safe to assume that seven years had not passed).

For that matter, it's not known that the small Black Mages would have necessarily been produced through sexual reproduction were they biologically sired by Vivi. Reproduction can also occur through fision (splitting) and budding (basically, a new organism growing off of another's body). While that's not to say that either of these were the process by which Vivi's sons came to be, it is intended to say that sexual reproduction is not the only possible means of biological reproduction.

Where, then, did they come from? Quite simply, we can't be certain.

Due to the same being the case in regard to Vivi and all other Black Mages, it's likely safe to assume that Vivi's sons were composed of Spirit Energy that had gone stagnant and become Mist, but as to how that Mist coalesced into the Black Mages we see during the game's ending is left rather open-ended. That Vivi used the machines in Dali to create more, or that they formed from
his Spirit Energy upon his death are theories that could be more safely regarded as possible, yet even they are difficult to make a case for in terms of reasonable proof. As things stand, the origin of these Black Mages cannot be irreproachably proven, for there simply isn't a sufficient amount of information offered by the game toward an origin in order to make a theory
completely airtight.

That said, however, I have a theory as to their origin, and feel that it is the most likely based on in-game information coupled with in-series information:

It is known, of course, that when someone dies, their Spirit Energy returns to the Planet to be used as the energy of life in other creatures that are born. It is known also that the experiences of an individual in some way contributes toward the growth of a Planet's swell of Spirit Energy that lies at its center, whether that swell be called "the Lifestream," "the Gaia," or simply
"the light" (as it is in Final Fantasy IX). We know this based on the Gaia Theory of Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within:

(Stated by Aki, quoting Dr. Sid's journal.)

(SPOILER)"All life is born of Gaia and each life has a spirit. Each new spirit is housed in a physical body. ...Through their experiences on Earth each spirit matures and grows. When the physical body dies the mature spirit enriched by its life on Earth returns to Gaia bringing with it the experiences, enabling Gaia to live and grow."

(SPOILER)In bringing with it these "experiences," it would be taking with it the memories of the individual's lifetime. Based on Final Fantasy VII, VIII, and X, we can determine that memories themselves have power. We can do this for a few reasons:

In Final Fantasy X, the Fayth on Mt. Gagazet dreamed of Zanarkand as they had known it, allowing Yu Yevon to tap into their memories and fashion them into not only Dream Zanarkand, a physical place lying on another plane of existance with actual people who are born, live, and die, but also into the powerful force known as Sin, a monstrosity that ravaged the world of Spira for a
thousand years (note the Zanarkand-like architecture on Sin's head). Their memories essentially became the "fuel" for the creature.


In Final Fantasy VIII, junctioning oneself to a GF causes memory loss over time, suggesting that the GF draws on the memories of its Junction partner in order to supply them the power it does (not just calling the GF forth, but drawing, stocking, and junctioning Magicks), the one junctioned to a GF acting as a Fayth of sorts:

(After Squall and the other main characters -- minus Rinoa -- discover that they grew up together, but that all of them but Irvine had forgotten.)

(SPOILER)Squall
"...Why is it that we forgot?"
"We grew up together as kids...How's that possible...?"

Irvine
"How about this?"
"...The price we pay for using the GF."
"The GF provides us its power."
"But the GF makes its own place inside our brain..."

Quistis
"So you're saying that the area is where our memories are stored?"
"No...! That's just a rumor the GF critics are spreading."

Zell
"So if we keep relying on the GF, we won't be able to remember a lot of
things?"

Quistis
"There's no way Headmaster Cid would allow such a dangerous thing!"

Irvine
"Then how is it that I remember, while everyone else has forgotten?"
"Well...?"
"In my case, I hadn't junctioned a GF until recently."
"That's why I remember a lot more than you guys."

Quistis
"How about you, Selphie?"
"Your first experience with the GF was when you came to Balamb Garden, right?"

Selphie
"...Yeah."

...

Selphie
"I have a confession to make!"

Selphie
"When I was 12, I went on an outdoor training session."
"I found a GF inside one of the monsters I defeated..."
"I junctioned that GF for a while. So I have experience with GF, too."
"But...but, it's really weird! I can't remember the name of that GF!"

Quistis
"It must be the GF's fault...

(SPOILER)In Final Fantasy VII, it's said that the knoweledge contained in Materia (the memories bound to the crystalized Spirit Energy that is the Materia) interacts between the wielder of the Materia and the Planet, calling forth Magicks:

(Stated by Sephiroth in Mt. Nibel.)

(SPOILER)"...the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia. Anyone with this knowledge can freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts between ourselves and the planet calling up magic..... or so they say."

(SPOILER)With these things in mind, let us recall the emphasis placed on the importance of memories in Final Fantasy IX: The game emphasises all memory and life having began at a single source, known as the Crystal. All life is connected, each having its beginning with the crystal, no matter how far back in time it is that the Crystal propagated life into existance. The game has a place known as "Memoria," which literally means "Memory" in several languages, and in which the characters trace their own Spirit Energy's back to the beginning of its existance with the Crystal, all of them even able to recall that their world was once entirely covered with water, despite this having been, perhaps, millions or billions of years before their lifetimes. Zidane was even able to
recall things of Gaia's far past, despite being from Terra, this being because all life has a single source when one traces it back far enough: The Crystal.

Also worthy of note is that it would seem that some of the Summoners of Madain Sari determined that the legends of Eidolons were the basis of their creation, and not the other way around, essentially meaning that the memory of these beings amongst the citizenry of a village or tribe would manifest the Eidolon, their customs and mental perceptions of these beings affecting even the forms they would take:

(Written on the Eidolon Wall in Madain Sari, and accessible after performing the small sidequest necessary to reveal all of the writing on the wall.)

(SPOILER)The Legend of Eidolons

"We discovered eidolons by researching legends documented from around the
world. The Thunder God, Ramuh, is one of those legends. Some theorize that the
eidolons were created from the legends, and not the other way around."

The First Eidolon Discovered, Shiva

"Shiva took the form of a young girl when she was first discovered. She now
appears as a grown woman. Eidolons adapt their forms to the time and culture
in which they appear. Shiva illustrates this theory. In certain areas, Shiva
is depicted as a snow fairy. This cannot be verified, since the only written
document that remains is in the summoner village. People associate Shiva with
the snow fairy. Why she changes forms remains a mystery."

(SPOILER)With the understanding of the game's emphasis on memories, recall that with Vivi's final line in the game, one final emphasis is placed on them:

(SPOILER)"My memories will be part of the sky..."

(SPOILER)What does this suggest? Perhaps many things. Perhaps nothing. For myself, this demands recalling that it is experiences (memories) that allow a soul to mature and the overall swell of souls to grow. Keeping this in mind, Vivi learned a great many lessons about life during the game, and gained an understanding of life and acceptance of death that few people ever would be
likely to. His experiences taught him many things about life, and he was truly a mature spirit.

Considering this and that Vivi's life was maintained by stagnant Spirit Energy, or Mist, that had been compressed into his form, upon his death it's certain his Spirit Energy would move on, departing from his body. Taking into account that his memories would be powerful indeed considering the lessons he had learned, it may be possible that his Spirit Energy -- upon his death -- dispersed, but coalesced into the new Vivis as a result of the powerful memories that had been gained (it kept in mind that the memories of the Fayth on Gagazet were even able to become life, as Dream Zanarkand was populated with living, breathing, reproducing people).

Vivi's memories granting enough strength to this Spirit Energy for new life to be manifested would actually provide an explanation for one aspect of the ending, this being how the first son of Vivi that is shown (speaking to Puck), knew Puck to be the Prince of Burmecia despite having never met him:

(SPOILER)Puck
"Pick up the pace, will ya!?"
"I don't believe it! Vivi!"

Vivi
"Vivi?"
"How do you know that name!?"

Puck
"What are you talking about?"
"It's me, Puck! How could you forget me!?"

Vivi
"Puck...?"

Puck
"You know, Puck!"

Vivi
"Th-The Prince of Burmecia!?"

Puck
"Oh, come on! What's wrong with you?"
"If you're not Vivi, then who are you!?"

Vivi
"I'm..."
"Vivi's son!"

(SPOILER)One final thing to consider is the symbolism of Vivi's name, "Vivi" being Latin for "Alive." That new life could emerge from his passing would be very fitting, I feel.

With all this in mind, it is my personal belief that Vivi's sons were brought into existance in the manner which I have suggested to be the case here, and that it is the most likely possibility of their origin. While, granted, there's no explanation for the mechanism that would propagate such an occurrence offered here aside from Vivi's memories having matured his Spirit Energy to the point that it was able to nourish it and provide vessels for it, without knowing full well the properties of Spirit Energy, it's -- for the moment -- a more likely possibility than most -- if not all -- others, I believe.

Thoughts anyone?