God bless America's finest.

[Big D]

[q=TheAbominatrix]And apparantly you have never read about the Mi Lai massacre, when US forces in Vietnam slaughted 300 (I believe that's the number) innocent women and children, spraying them with napalm. Decapitation is a far far more merciful act than having your body covered in napalm.[/q]And that was just one incident... there were many more atrocities where soldiers simply charged into villages and shot whoever they saw. One village lost five hundred people in a single incident; the US government is finally beginning to admit what was done and to offer compensation to the survivors, like the lady who allegedly lost a hand when her infant child was shot dead in her arms.

The worst possible reaction to recent events would be to say, "It's OK, America doesn't usually do this, it's better than what the enemy would do, so nothing needs to be done". Ever hear of "western hypocrisy"? That's what they're talking about. "You all have to obey these rules, but we don't because we're special - and more importantly, we're powerful, so you've got no right to object". I truly fear for this world sometimes...

[TheAbominatrix]

It's very scary, Big D. Very very scary. I had a rather sleepless night after hearing all this... the pictures were bad enough, but people not caring hurt me and scared me far worse than those pictures did. Apathy leads to terrible things sometimes.

Anyway, back to Vietnam atrocities in general... a lot of torture went down on both sides. My dad said that, when they needed information from a group (didnt matter what side they were on) and no one was talking, they'd tie their hands behind their back, lay sandbags over the backs of their necks, and begin to pour water on them. The sandbags would push their heads down and ultimately choke them to death... until one of them started talking. (I dunno if he participated, when he was sergeant of his own platoon they routinely avoided conflict and basically just slacked off as much as they could, but none one in his platoon was ever even wounded. These things happened when he was a private I believe). Anyway, one day some of the boys from his unit raped a girl (gang raped her, of course) and then drug her to death behind an APC, old west style.

It doesnt matter one whit whether it happens every day or once in a while. One time is too much. One time is wrong. One time is more than enough.

edit: And I'm sure that, back in Germany before the holocaust... there was always someone going 'well, it's only one time' or 'well, our government knows what it's doing' or 'well, not all the soldiers are bad'.

edit 2: And before anyone starts in on me, I'm not saying this is going to turn into another holocaust, and I'm not saying Bush is as bad as Hitler.

[Shadow Nexus]

"It's OK, America doesn't usually do this, it's better than what the enemy would do, so nothing needs to be done". Ever hear of "western hypocrisy"? That's what they're talking about. "You all have to obey these rules, but we don't because we're special - and more importantly, we're powerful, so you've got no right to object". I truly fear for this world sometimes...

Agreed, and that is the attitude you get when you keep hearing over and over "we are the good ones". Anyone read Aldous Huxley's Brave New World? Forty thousand repetitions make a truth, so when things go wrong, just turn your head and pretend that you just didn't see. Big deal, cause...you know, they are more evil, ergo we are free to do as we want as long as we don't do it like them.

And now that you mentioned the whole Vietnam atrocities, and I mentioned Huxley...and this is preety off topic, but just as a little anecdote, I found out Reagan retired the school subventions (Whatever it's called in English...eh...economical help) to Ray Bradbury's "Fahrenheit 451" because "it was against the principles that should be teached to Americans". Anyone who has read that book (It's preety easy to read, I read it all in an afternoon, it's preety fast paced) knows why the idea of "this are not the principles for our people" is preety scary. It preety much supports the idea of how there seems to be a seek of alienation of the citizens in order to reduce critizism against the country.

But yeah, no big deal, it's just a violation of human rights. No big deal at all.

"We don't want promises, we don't want electoral pruposes, nor goverment pruposes, all they should do is take from the cupboard the Declaration of Human Rights, where everything a human being needs to have a decent life is written, and then apply it"

- Literature Nobel Prize José Saramago in an interview in the literature magezine "Babelia" (24/04/04)

[Casey]

Why cant people look past what country or what side or whatever these people are from? How can you look at the pictures and not care?

Yeah, torturing them is wrong, this one incident. At least.But when I see people torturing are troops or killing them, and civilian contractors who are over there to rebuild that country. What am I supposed to do? And they drag there bodies through the streets like somalia.It just pisses me off when I see it.I just say some of those Iraqies kinda of ignorant, we come there to rebuild there country and what do some of them do? Go away americans! I guess that just explains 30 years of corrupt dictatorship gives you. An the occupation in Iraq to leave is pretty soon, but I dont think it should be right now because theres people over there that dont want liberty. Sometimes I wonder if this war will really end in vain, or just be successful because there alot of people of there that hate us, but at least were doing somthing.

[TheAbominatrix]

What does their attitude have to do with them being tortured? We invaded them. If someone invaded our country, no matter how good their intentions, wouldnt you fight back? Wouldnt you be pissed? And besides, it doesnt matter. It doesnt matter what these people did, it does not give us the right to torture them. You don't know any Iraqi's, don't call them ignorant. They're fighting for what they think is right... whether we agree with it or not. We fight for what we think is right, whether they believe in it or not.

And again, this has nothing to do with the war as a whole. This has to do with human rights. I dont see why this is so hard to understand.

Torture is never right. On either side.

[Casey]

Well hey, at least we take care of the POWs, by supplying them with food and a bed. At least we do that, unlike torturing or dragging dead bodies through the streets, and standing on top of a hummer with a U.S. flag burning. An we didnt invade them, were liberators, we came there to take down Saddam not the Iraqi people. If I was a Iraqi and the US ''invaded'' to take down a corrupt dictator such as Saddam, I wouldnt fight back, Id be happy. As far as human rights, I dont really think POWs have any, there prisoners of war. But on this particular event, yeah that was messed up.

[The Captain]

"Well hey, at least we take care of the POWs, by supplying them with food and a bed. At least we do that, unlike torturing or dragging dead bodies through the streets, and standing on top of a hummer with a U.S. flag burning. An we didnt invade them, were liberators, we came there to take down Saddam not the Iraqi people. If I was a Iraqi and the US ''invaded'' to take down a corrupt dictator such as Saddam, I wouldnt fight back, Id be happy."

Liberators after the fact. We went in their to find weapons, not to liberate the Iraqi people. That only came about because plan A turned out to be a hoax. Sure, it is good that Saddam was kicked out, but why should it be okay that we went there under a false pretense?

To really be able to comprehend what has happened, one needs to pause, and remember that while yes, Americans are generally attempting to do the "right" thing, and often treat their POW's better than another country, that still doesn't justify the action. Even if it happened only once, that's one time too many. To me, I'd rather see the flag burned by a foreigner, then have troops who are sworn to protect it, abuse that power. Call them ignorant, call them uninformed, but I agree with what has been said by many: Unless you were born under a rock, it's common sense to realize what was happening was wrong on just a basic level of being alive. I'd have the exact same reaction if this had happened on the flip side, if American POW's had been forced into such torture. It's not about who's side someone is on, that's beside the point. What matters is that people were being treated like dirt, whether you think they should be or not, and THAT, is only going to throw more gas onto a fire that already burns with Worldwide distain for America.

We need to get over what country we're from and really take a long hard look at what it means to just be a human being, or else, it can only get worse.

Take care all.

[TheAbominatrix]

Please stop trying to make excuses.

We didnt invade them? We liberated them, yes. But we invaded them. We entered their country when a lot of them, their leader especially, did not want us there. That's called invading. Saddam was bad, yes.

I asked if someone invaded America, not if you were an Iraqi. You dont know how you'd react, you're not an Iraqi. If some country with wonderful intentions sat down and said 'you know what, our system of government is awesome. Lets go help the US.' and invaded us, you'd be pissed. I'd be pissed, we'd all be pissed. And I hate Bush and would be glad to see him out of power. I'd still be pissed if someone invaded.

POWs dont have human rights? They're prisoners of war, yes. But they're human. Hence the title human rights. And remember you said that, when our soldiers are captured and tortured. Remember that. You dont think they have human rights, so it's okay that they're tortured.

We take good care of POWs? Yes, our track record is good. But supplying them with a bed and food is moot if we're torturing them. And Iraq took pretty good care of our first POWs, didnt they? But of course, we're allowed to torture and main and kill them, but if they do it to us... well it's on.

Sick. Really disgusting.

[The Captain]

"We take good care of POWs? Yes, our track record is good. But supplying them with a bed and food is moot if we're torturing them. And Iraq took pretty good care of our first POWs, didnt they? But of course, we're allowed to torture and main and kill them, but if they do it to us... well it's on."

Tis called: "The American Double Standard".

One example that comes to my mind of this is how Bush can be so very critical of governments run with religion tied into it, yet he says he makes all his decisions based upon God. Hmmm.....

Take care all.

[HOOTERS]

Maybe at least one good thing that will come out of this is that those that say it was only a handful of American soldiers who did this and that you can't condemn the entire U.S. military, maybe next time a handful of Iraqis do something atrocious to U.S. soldiers those people will hold the same sentiment.

[The Captain]

Nice point Hooters! One would hope, but who knows nowadays?

Take care all.

[Big D]

The news just keeps getting better:rolleyes2

Now there've been similar allegations against a small number of British troops - a tabeloid has run photos allegedly showing a British soldier urinating on a bound prisoner, and there are reports that another POW was beaten severely and then dropped from the back of a moving truck, and whether he survived is unknown. General Sir Michael Jackson announced an immediate investigation, describing these acts, if found to be true, as "criminal" and saying that those responsible are not fitto wear the Queen's uniform. Jackson's one of the seniormost members of the British armed forces, I'm glad that he, too, is taking a resolutely strong stand.

An we didnt invade them, were liberators, we came there to take down Saddam not the Iraqi people.

And how was this "liberation" achieved? By invading, and destroying the nation's infrastructure (what's left of it, anyway), killing thousands of Iraqi innocents in the process. The survivors, who've been fed state-controlled media lies for decades, have no reason to believe that anything other than an "evil takeover" is underway... it's a blessing of sorts that so many Iraqis are welcoming the foreign forces, really.

As far as human rights, I dont really think POWs have any, there prisoners of war.

Think you need to do a little research... POWs have rights just like any other prisoners. Heard of the Geneva Convention on the Treatment of Prisoners? How about UN legislation on the matter, that the US signed up to?
The only reason the Guantanamo Bay detention has been able to continue is because the US government invented excuses to avoid classifying the detainees as POWs, thereby avoiding the Geneva Convention and other accords intended to prevent acts of torture, amongst other cruel and unusual punishment.

[Shadow Nexus]

Yes, rebuilding is so nice, getting your dear multinationals to get rich by possesing the main points of Iraq and making money. Such solidarity! Destroying and rebuilding what may give you benefits!

And you think the Iraqi people commit atrocities? They do, and yet they do what they are supposed to do. No one wanted Saddam, now Saddam is out, now they cry yankee go home, because no one likes invaders either, no matter how politically correct (Or not) they are.

And then news such as the one just posted arises (Heh, Michael Jackson...uh...¬¬), and I bet this is just the tip of the iceberg. I am not saying the US army is telling their soldiers to torture POWs as much as they like, I am saying some soldiers do despite the law. And then you get pissed when you see this or that guy blew himself up just to kill american troops. OK, well, it may not be something good, to blow youself up, but now use your imagination a little bit: Suppose the man foced to have oral sex, humiliated and beaten to death was your brother, father, or your best friend. What then? Do you love your "liberators" so much?

Now, seriously, maniacheism is just a way of alienating thought. Cut the flow of troutty Hollywood action movies a little bit and use your head.


And...

Article 2.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

[The Man]

I'm simply amazed how many excuses people find to justify atrocities like this.

Nothing justifies the treatment of prisoners in this manner. Nothing.

[Dr Unne]

I don't think anyone is giving excuses.

There are what, a hundred thousand troops in Iraq? It'd be a mircale if there WASN'T a few criminals in the lot. It says nothing about the army as a whole, unless generals are going around ordering Iraqi troops to be tortured.

And some people are comparing this to what Saddam did. Taking some pictures of people naked, vs. outright torturing and murdering innocent people by the tens of thousands over a series of decades. I think people may be overreacting to this whole thing just a LITTLE. It's not like there's a holocaust going on over there in those prisons. Some sick freaks did some sick stuff to some prisoners. Round up those soldiers, throw them in jail for a good long time like the scum that they are, and get on with things. Worse stuff than the stuff in those pictures happens down the block from me every day, and probably happens in every city in the world.