God bless America's finest.

[TheAbominatrix]

People get beaten to death, too? And electrocuted? By authority figures? What neighborhood do you live in?

It's compared to what Saddam did because we condemned Saddam for his actions (rightly so) and went to 'liberate' these people from having to be treated like that, yet some of our soldiers are doing these things we're supposed to be saving these people from.

There's a lot of attempted excuses in this thread. Saying "Well at least we... (insert various praise here)" is an excuse, an attempted justifcation.

[Rei]

I agree with Unne. It's not comparable at all, because Saddam, as the state, tortured people and whatnot, while this is just a few troops acting independently. We can't be criticized for the actions of six, twelve, eighteen, or however many are accessories to these acts. This is the last thing we want to happen.

[Dr Unne]

People get beaten to death, too? And electrocuted? By authority figures? What neighborhood do you live in? --TheAbominatrix

Shot by guns, same difference. Dead is dead. There's a serial rapist around here. Guys shoot their pregnant girlfriends. Etc. etc. At the local jail, a bunch of wardens are right now accused of running a scam where they trade female inmates drugs for sex. And using female inmates as prostitutes. How long has it been since there was a story about some little girl somewhere getting kidnapped and raped and murdered by some deranged lunatic? Couldn't have been more than a week or two.

There is no excuse for any of it. But dressing up prisoners, even in very humiliating ways, isn't anywhere near the top of my list of bad things I see on the news every day. That's all I'm saying. Humiliating prisoners is less bad than murdering tens of thousands of people, that's all I'm saying too. So far as scandals go, this is a scandal, sure, but not to the level people seem to be taking it. And it says nothing about America, nor about our troops.

[TheAbominatrix]

Yeah, but they didnt just humilate them. If that was just the case, it would be different. Still wrong, but different. And it doesnt matter if it happens every day in every part of the world. It's still wrong, and it still deserves to be spoken of and fought against. If we become so apathetic that we look at situations like this... well, it wont be good. Granted a lot of people are, but I, for one, cant just sit back and watch this happen with an 'oh well, it happens all the time' attitude.

[The Captain]

Agreed, even if this is a one time incident, it's one time too many. America likes to put itself above the rabble of what goes on, and usually rightfully so, but we also have to repent for mistakes, not just say it's a one time problem. Perhaps, we need to refresh troops around the world what the Geneva Convention said?

Take care all.

[DocFrance]

No, there is no excuse for this deplorable behavior at all. Furthermore, saying that this isn't as bad as what Saddam did doesn't make it any better. This is a war for the hearts and minds of the citizens of Iraq - and in those sorts of wars, perception is everything.

If our American armed forces are to act as the policemen of the world, then they'd best as hell follow every single bit of international document and legislation to the T. This is going to go a long way in how other nations think of us. One "aw, trout" erases a hundred "attaboys."

Also, this isn't just a matter of the dozen or so soldiers and contractors working at the prison. This is a failure of a good portion of their chain of command - the leaders who decided to assign inexperienced grunts and civillians to a POW facility. There are military personnel specifically trained for this sort of thing. Hell, even I have more experience with interrogation procedures than these screw-ups.

Anyway, the best thing we can do right now is punish those responsible for this mess, get some new folks in charge of the POW system over there, and carry on with our business despite the international outcry surrounding this atrocious incident.

[The Captain]

Very good points indeed Doc.

If America is going to take the responsibility to "safeguard democracy" around the world, they'd most certainly better be ready to take the brunt of the backlash and burdens.

Take care all.

[TheAbominatrix]

Well said, DocFrance. I agree completly.

If we want Iraqi citizens to feel that we've truly come to liberate them, as we claim, then we should act like liberators and not like the one we liberated them from. No, what those people did wasnt nearly as bad as what Saddam did... but can you imagine it's effect on the everyday Iraqi citizen? The chilling though that, hey, maybe even after Saddam is gone... there'll just be a force as evil to replace them? No, I'm not saying that the American force is evil as a whole, but I know if I were an Iraqi civilian learning of this, that would be the first thing on my mind.

We can only hope that some good can come of this. That maybe this will expose problems and the military will strive to fix them. Hopefully this was just an isolated incident, though I did see on the BBC news that the investigation has exposed far more... even in British forces (the only incident I clearly remember them speaking of was a British soldier urinating on an Iraqi captive, I dunno if they mentioned anything else).

[Dr Unne]

Meanwhile, every single day, someone in Iraq rams a car full of explosives into a bus full of children, or some such thing. Where is the outrage over THAT? I don't see people making threads condemning THAT. It's fine to be outraged over what the US troops did; I am too. Given the level of outrage shown in this thread (for example) at what the US troops did, we should have forum after forum of nothing but people literally screaming in fury over what the psychopaths in Iraq are doing every day, to innocent Iraqis as well as Americans. But I don't see it. Taking pictures, vs. shooting missiles at hotel buildings; and taking pictures is what gets your focus?

I'm not at all apathetic to the prisoners' being tortured by Americans; like I said, soldiers who'd do that are scum, and deserve prison time. I'm more upset because of the focus of people's outrage here, and THAT is the only double-standard I notice.

[TheAbominatrix]

I dont see you posting those threads, either. I, personally, am disgusted by those actions. I watch the news as little as possible, simply because I can only handle so much. I am fully disgusted by pretty much everything going on in this war, and I have said so many times.

Don't say things like "I don't see anyone posting those things." if you want discussion on those things, post em. Post em everytime it happens. And you'll see as much disgust as you've seen in this one.

[Dr Unne]

I admit that "You didn't post threads about it!" isn't proof of anything. A stupid thing for me to say. I'll retract that statement and just say that directly comparing what the American troops did in the prison to things like what Saddam did to the Iraqis isn't valid. I have read such comparisons in various news sites, things like "What's the difference between them and Saddam? They are finishing what he started".

[The Captain]

The only problem Unne, is that most of Saddam's evil doings have not yet entirely been found. Once more gravesites, and the like are found, I'd expect more of a reaction. It's sad to say this, but much like what occured in Russia under Stalin, and in Africa, we may never know the exact amount of those who were killed during his brutal and terrible regime.

The only thing I can think of to explain this is:
We've come to almost expect the worst out of Iraq, so it's that much more shocking to see it happen outside of Iraq, and I think that is the main reason that this particular issue has drawn so much attention.

Still, I agree that it seems a little bit off, but America is always and will probably always be held to higher standards, it comes with the terrority that we've decided to take for ourselves.

Take care all.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

I see no difference between Americans horribly torturing Iraqis and Iraqis horribly torturing Americans. The very fact that these are human beings being tortured remains the same, and I cannot dismiss it as something that always happens. Even if such a thing is true, it SHOULD NOT be permitted to happen, ever. There is no excuse, there is no defense, this is a horrible, inhuman act that demands outrage as surely as the actions of the Iraqis who torture our own people demand equal outrage.

[The Captain]

Agreed. The problem is, it has always seemed that the value of human live differs depending on what culture you're from, which is very disheartening.

Take care all.

[Nemesis the Warlock]

If I remember correctly, the Allies invaded Iraq for two reasons: to find weapons of mass destruction, and to bring democracy and human rights to the Iraqi people. They didn't find any weapons of mass destruction, and now they are becoming the new tyrants. Well done!

It's no excuse that some Iraqis do even worse things. It never is.