The US.
The US.
So you're saying that US Laws were in no way based on the laws of a religion (christianity/catholicism) and that swearing on the bible in court for example is just a gimmick. Oh and the fact that you have to swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me god. Nothing to do with religion. Its just coincidence that robbery, murder, slander etc are illegal and that they also are in the ten commandments. People may not necessarily abide to a certain religion but there is no doubt that western culture and western society are based upon ancient religious ways. However this is getting off topic, if you feel you have an arguement against this then start a new thread and I will be happy to contribute.
Back to Jerusalem.
I think you should re-check things, mate.Not in my country.
When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one yourself... when gazing into the abyss, bear in mind that the abyss also gazes into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
The rightful owner of this Ciddie can kiss my arse! :P
I'll make a new thread for this.
okay, it's very apperant that you aren't taking any of this seriously. no offence but everything you've said is rhetoric and is not the state of reality. These are documented facts, I can try to pull everything you want and give you sources but you can't just throw out large statements which don't agree with how reality actually is.Originally Posted by War Angel
One: the stones are breaking. rock is falling down. do your own reaserch! by all means don't take my word for it! A cracked piece has injured one jew by striking him on the head.
http://www.templemountfaithful.org/News/20040419.htm
that covers the earthquake too. I'm sorry to burst your bubble but we can find the future epicenter of quakes with some easyness.
Religion is not the sign of delusion. I personally and every other devout religious person on this earth find that to be religious hate. If you can't rationally tell me why belief in a literal book of faith is delusional, are you speaking anything but propaganda? think about that. Know also that I will be checking any answer for informal logical fallicies, which seem to run all to rampant in today's culture. But I digress. Finally your jewish history is a little poor. King David conquored the city from a residual cannanite tribe. It is also discribed as the footstool of God, God's holy city in one of the later psalms. So why isn't it holy?
Clyde Arronwy, The Great and Magnificent Gumby, Lord Thanatosimii, Having Been Bequiethed of the Poke-dom, Ruler of Gumbolivia, Third member of "The Mind Whose Name Dare Not Be Spoken Aloud"
Not at all.okay, it's very apperant that you aren't taking any of this seriously
It's just a wall. If it breaks down, we'll fix it. That's all there is to it.
Well, duh. It's pretty obvious that any earth-quake in this area will come from the tactonic barrier. That's like saying 'I think it's safe to say the next bullet will also come from out of the barrel'. Only, you can't tell WHEN it's going to happen, or even IF it's going to happen.I'm sorry to burst your bubble but we can find the future epicenter of quakes with some easyness.
I did not say that. However, thinking that rebuilding the Jewish Temple, on that mountain, at this time, is a feasible idea... well, that's idiotic. Sorry, there's no other word for it. It has NOTHING to do with religion. I know many religious people, and if I asked them that, they'd say "Sure, it'd be nice if we could... but it can't be done.". Thinking or saying otherwise means you don't know what earth you're living on. Maybe in your world, there are no Muslims, and no-one else who desires that place for themselves. Or mayble, you're ready for an all-out religious war with over a billion and a half Muslims?Religion is not the sign of delusion
Because we're not pagan. Jews worship God, anywhere. He's not inside the city, and while it holds a great place of meaning to Jews, that meaning of simply due to certain historic events that took place there, and as the center of worship. We do NOT worship the city, and God is the only icon of holiness.So why isn't it holy?
Oh, and that site you gave - it's some kind of religious-crazed doom-site, trying to bring about the building ot the Third Temple. I suggest people read that article, to see what a Jewish religious fanatic sounds like. I give that site abseloutly NO credit, as far as objective news report is concerned.
When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one yourself... when gazing into the abyss, bear in mind that the abyss also gazes into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
The rightful owner of this Ciddie can kiss my arse! :P
This is a logical fallicy. Let me explain. Bias is irrelevant. It doesn't change truth or a person's vision of truth, and even if it did, it wouldn't matter. If you cannot find an actual problem with a statement, you can't just cry "bias!" and run. Even If the implications of a statement or the source of a statement made it untrue, you must then be able to find somthing wrong with the statement in and of itself.
I have a question. What makes you think religious people have any will to act in accordance with the feasibility of the world. True religion constitutes one and only one thing, complete adherence to one absolute truth spoken by God or somthing that stands in the place of God. The absolute truths of the jewish bible are as such, God is omnipotent, He does not care what the world wants, he will do whatever he pleases without care for the petty politics of earth, because he is holy and takes earths superpowers as seriously as a bunch of toddlers flinging mud at each other. Under those assumptions, why do you think that the orthodox jews will non act to achieve God's goals without concern for politics. If they did anyhow, the last Four times the arabs attacked Israel, The israelis slaughtered them and wiped the entire middle east with their bloody carcasses. I don't think they'd have a problem even not considering God.
And I only cited that page to show that factually speaking the wall is falling down and cannot be repaired. If you do a little more searching you'll find that water has started seeping through the wall, it's bulging in places and essentially cannot be put back together, and that sometime in the future it will come down, and that also sometime in the future that mosque is going to come crashing down. Ignore the "religious crazed" etc etc and look at fact.
and how can you say you don't consider jerusalem the holy city, even though the Jewish and Christian bible calls it that, when your location at this very moment says: The Holy Land?!
Clyde Arronwy, The Great and Magnificent Gumby, Lord Thanatosimii, Having Been Bequiethed of the Poke-dom, Ruler of Gumbolivia, Third member of "The Mind Whose Name Dare Not Be Spoken Aloud"
Because they're still logical, thinking human-beings. Otherwise, they're just morons.What makes you think religious people have any will to act in accordance with the feasibility of the world.
That's not true. In the book of Ezra (at least, I think it was Ezra..), God tells Ezra to tell the kings to allow Babylon passage to Egypt, and not stand in the empire's way. The foolish Israeli king decalres war on Babylon, stands in its way... and soon finds his tragic end, as does Jersualem and many other Israeli cities at that time. So, God does care about earthly politics, and he desires to protect his people from making mistakes. Waging war upon the Islamic world, when there 13 million Jews and some 1.7 billion Muslims - that's not a bright thing to do.The absolute truths of the jewish bible are as such, God is omnipotent, He does not care what the world wants, he will do whatever he pleases without care for the petty politics of earth, because he is holy and takes earths superpowers as seriously as a bunch of toddlers flinging mud at each other.
You know, it's really funny... 'cause orthodox Jews aren't even Zionist. They couldn't care less about the State of Israel, and haven't fought in any war - and they continue to avoid military service that is the duty of every Israeli. They don't work, either. They don't pay taxes. In conclusion - everything the Haredim say about Israel, is not something I'd care to hear.Under those assumptions, why do you think that the orthodox jews will non act to achieve God's goals without concern for politics.
5 times, and it was hardly any thing like what you described. Each war was won just barely, with extreme casualties on the Israeli side. The War of Independance was won, after over one percent of the population had perished. Just to get that number clear - that's like a war happening in the USA now, and over 3 million Americans dead by the end of it. Israel has won every war by sheer genious in battle, and un-wavering morale and courage - not the help of God, and surely not by the help of some primtive, apathetic money-sucking zealots.If they did anyhow, the last Four times the arabs attacked Israel, The israelis slaughtered them and wiped the entire middle east with their bloody carcasses.
Then it will fall down. It's been standing solid for over three millenias - I'd say that's a pretty good deal of time, for a brick-wall that is located in a place that has seen more conflict than any other place on the face of the earth.And I only cited that page to show that factually speaking the wall is falling down and cannot be repaired. If you do a little more searching you'll find that water has started seeping through the wall, it's bulging in places and essentially cannot be put back together, and that sometime in the future it will come down, and that also sometime in the future that mosque is going to come crashing down
The term 'Holy Land' does not exist in Hebrew. It's 'Eretz Hakodesh', or 'Land of Holiness', which is considerably different.and how can you say you don't consider jerusalem the holy city, even though the Jewish and Christian bible calls it that, when your location at this very moment says: The Holy Land?!
When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one yourself... when gazing into the abyss, bear in mind that the abyss also gazes into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
The rightful owner of this Ciddie can kiss my arse! :P
Or mabey becaus God has the power to knock the world flat on it's face and does so frequently
Book of kings. There were no kings in the second temple period. King Josiah or jehoicakim or somthing jeh-ish stood in the way. He died because he disobayed God. So tell me, If God could warn the king to not go to war, why didn't he just protect israel from babylon later on. Becaue, he orchestrated the attack on israel to begin with to punish them for idolitry (See Jeremiah and Haggai) God specifically raised up the chaldeans to punish israel. Now you've accepted your example as truth, so why don't you accept everything. There are two reasons for you, firstly you can't accept part as true and part as false without reason, and if you have a reason, secondly, you must know that any reason that stands inbetween you and complete acceptance of truth constitues idolotry and doesn't only break one command, but a major theme of the entire hebrew bible and thus invalidates the whole.
oh... Israel took over siani, destroyed the entire egyptian air force in one shot, and almost took damascus. What more do you want? I don't mean that to mean that God did it, you'll come to that conclusion when enough 'coincidences' pile up. But Israel crushed the arab world.
We aren't speaking of hebrew, we're talking in english. Holy City is paganism but Holy land is not? and anyhow, gramatically speaking, an adjective is the same thing as a genative of kind. Holy land=land of holyness.
Clyde Arronwy, The Great and Magnificent Gumby, Lord Thanatosimii, Having Been Bequiethed of the Poke-dom, Ruler of Gumbolivia, Third member of "The Mind Whose Name Dare Not Be Spoken Aloud"
I'm not going to have an argument with you about the power of God, his course of action or goals - simply because I don't believe in God. I could discuss his literrary figure, as it appears in the scriptures (the same way I would discuss Gandalf's role in LoTR), but nothing more.
While Israel indeed has a formidable military presence, and has shown awesome displays of said prowess - it is still a small nation of 7 million people, versus more than two dozen nations, with a several hundred million people in them. Even if you manage to disarm a 60-foot giant of his tiny dagger, you'd still have a 60-foot giant on your case.But Israel crushed the arab world.
Anyway... to try and bring this rather awkward argument back on its trails:
If the wall falls down, it'll be a bummer, but it's still alright. It doesn't make any difference. Jews don't need the wall for prayer, they don't require it for worship, and they sure as hell don't wroship it. The Western Wall is a last remnant of a golden age, long past - it is not the heart and soul of Judaism. That's really all that needs to be said. Repairs will be made, but the eventual fate of the Western Wall is the same as that of any building, and indeed anything else - to fall.
The same goes for any earth-quake\meteor hit\flood\giant cat with foull temper - if it happens, then it happens. We'll do our best to prepare for it, and make repairs... but you can't really prevent an earth-quake, can you?
A new, third temple cannot be built. There are many who would oppose it, and frankly, I don't see any reason why we SHOULD build it. What good would it bring? Only the savage fury of the Muslim world, which isn't a very pleasant thing, mind you.
When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one yourself... when gazing into the abyss, bear in mind that the abyss also gazes into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
The rightful owner of this Ciddie can kiss my arse! :P
...Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD.
I mean, the IDF COULD drive down to Gaza and the West Bank, go door to door, and personally beat every Palestinian in the face with a shoe. It'd have about the same effect.
Perhaps, and this is just WILD speculation, the Israeli people are sick of war, and do not want to further enrage the Muslim world because a bunch of crackpot fundamentalist Christians want them to rebuild the temple so that Armageddon may begin and Jesus can smite all those who have not given enough money to said Christians?
"If you can't rationally tell me why belief in a literal book of faith is delusional, are you speaking anything but propaganda?"
The laws of Isreal's tribes from three millenia ago do not, for the most part, apply to the modern world.
Where in the name of a feral wombat did you pull that out of?
[/QUOTE]
The laws of Isreal's tribes from three millenia ago do not, for the most part, apply to the modern world.[/QUOTE]
The bible is not a normal book of laws. Parts of the torah is, two or so books, but the bible is a book of truths. It has been treated as such by both sides (me and war angel) throughout this thread but then you all start questioning it's validity. The jews who believe in the literal accuracy of the masoretic text will follow it to the end. That makes them deluded? Insane? and that makes everything they say wrong? Expand that Idea logically and you get a little problem. I believe letter of the entire christian bible is true down to the yuds and iotas. Therefore everything I say is wrong. I would not argue if you said it was suspect, but to dismiss what is suspect one needs to have proof, which neither of you have. I declare as true that 1+1=2. Ergo, 1+1+!2.
You've just suceeded in destroying all math on earth.
I don't know how much farther we can go on this argument. I'm what you call a fundimentalist, you both are what is called nihilist postmodern. We are polar opposites on all issues. Ergo nolo pugnare. (I can no longer argue. we wil never see eye to eye.)
But I must thank war angel for bringing us back to the topic, and I thank you for the first real answer.
Farewell all!
Clyde Arronwy, The Great and Magnificent Gumby, Lord Thanatosimii, Having Been Bequiethed of the Poke-dom, Ruler of Gumbolivia, Third member of "The Mind Whose Name Dare Not Be Spoken Aloud"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Temple
"A few, very small, Jewish groups support constructing a Third Temple today, but most Jews oppose this, for a variety of reasons. Most religious Jews feel that the Temple should only be rebuilt in the messianic era, and that it would presumptuous of people to force God's hand, as it were. Furthermore, there are many ritual impurity constrictions that are difficult to resolve, making the building's construction a practical impossibility."
"Some fundamentalist and evangelical Christian groups, especially those who follow a dispensationalist theology, believe that the Jewish people will build the Third Temple shortly before, or perhaps after, "true" Christians have been raptured."
and I'm NOT a nihilist. Believe it or not, not everyone who doesn't base their lives on a mistranslated old book is.
Postmodern nihilism is different from nihilism. You do believe in nothing if you don't base your life off of an absolute. Ergo, you're a nihilist. And the bible isn't mistranslated, not once. The dead sea scrolls prove that not one yud was lost in 2100 years. You have to base your truths off of somthing. What are they based off of, and why do you believe that the jewish/christian bible is wrong. It's been proven to my face as inerrant many many times by the most intellectual I know, so you must prove it wrong or accept it. There is no middle ground because the bible explicitly states that every single philosophy that disagrees with itself is wrong.
and you still have to tell me why giving money to the church has anything to do with christianity or the rapture.
But this is really all beside the point. I got a response from war angel, I'm happy. This isn't a "poke the fundementilist" thread and I'm tired of defending my faith and the fundementalist jewish faith when I never made any philosophical arguments to begin with.
oh yes, people don't make their own truths or religion, if they do then they know they're wrong because they have no power or authority to do so and they're terrible liars, so what most of the jews feel is appropriate is not scriptural. It's important, but to say it is the pivitol issue is to make out the entire jewish race to be ambivolent two faced liars, which we all know is totally inappropriate and morally wrong.
Clyde Arronwy, The Great and Magnificent Gumby, Lord Thanatosimii, Having Been Bequiethed of the Poke-dom, Ruler of Gumbolivia, Third member of "The Mind Whose Name Dare Not Be Spoken Aloud"
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