US law/society - based on Christianity?

[The Captain]

Hmm interesting point.

All I'm really saying, is that it always seemed odd to me that including self-evident into a document about freedom. It seemed that they were claiming they had a basic right as humans to be free, but then, where do these rights come from? That's all I'm getting at. If a truth is independent of a man, then it must just be true because it exists, correct?

So, to claim that it is self-evident, to me, would seem to say that right is given for all people who are humans and have come into existence. Yet, where did this truth come from? It's tough to agrue about this, if you don't have a belief in God or religion, because my claim that it came from their belief in God would have no value to you.

gokufusionss1, that is true. I believe many of the founding fathers had beliefs rooted in Common Law.

Take care all.

[Doc Sark]

Well I gotta tell you Unne I can understand why people get ticked off with you in a debate.

I don't think you understand atheism. --Dr. Unne

Well I do, please don't patronise me. If your opinion on the matter is different that is fine, but don't insult my intelligence. I like to think I have shown you the same courtesy.

To be an Atheist in western society is a conscious choice to reject religion and gods, because we are taught that these beliefs exist, whatever they may be, therefore it is a response to revealed religion. O.K your statement about a man living in Africa in a cave may hold some credibility but it is a far flung example I feel.

My arguement is society, morals and laws of American culture hold their roots in religion. This opinion has never wavered, I don't think you have disproved this at all. You have told me of other sources morality may stem from, which I accept are POSSIBILITIES in the the founding of American laws, yet unlikely as the majority of the populus were not Objecivist, or Kantianists etc. Now gokufusions raised an interesting point about English common law and the founding fathers. This adds more weight to my arguement.

You can argue that our society was founded by Christians, and that much of our culture and tradition in modern times is still Christian. I will agree. Dr. Unne

US Laws/Society based on Christianity. --Thread Title.

There goes society then as you have conceded that in the above statement.

Why would the founding fathers base the laws of the country on a belief that few others would understand. If as gokufusions says, they did take English Common Law as a template, laws that WERE undoubtedly based on or at least scrutinised by the English Church, it is not far fatched to draw the conclusion that American law comes from a similar source.

My reasons for believing American Laws/Society to be based on religion:

1. George Washington, Deist. Swore in on the bible. As a Deist he held respect for the bible as a source of moral teaching and imparted these morals on to his citizens. Lets face it, even some of the bibles less credible suggstions were taken on board. Like slavery, which was legal at the time.

2. Christianity was the major religion in America when it was founded. Why would the society be based on anything else.

3. Christian traditions have stayed in American Culture. Xmas, Easter etc.

4. American Law based on English Law. The whole concept of the American Constitution comes from the Magna Carta. England at the time was looked after by the Catholic church, though we know this changed in the 16th century. These laws were passed in the name of God.

http://www.magnacharta.com/articles/article04.htm (an essay backing this up)

Here is a translation in full of the Magna Carta for anyone that wishes to read it. It is long however and some of the laws are obsolete now, as you would expect, it is nearly 800 years old.

http://www.bl.uk/collections/treasur...anslation.html

So you are a long way from disproving me Dr. Unne. If the American constitution was based on the Magna Carta and the Magna Carta was passed in the name of God in a country effectively run by the church then as I have said previously, American Law (it seems we are in agreement that American society is based on christianity), must hold its roots in a religion, be it Catholicism or Christianity.

[Dr Unne]

To be an Atheist in western society is a conscious choice to reject religion and gods, because we are taught that these beliefs exist, whatever they may be, therefore it is a response to revealed religion. O.K your statement about a man living in Africa in a cave may hold some credibility but it is a far flung example I feel. --Doc Sark

I wasn't attempting to insult your intelligence. I AM an atheist, and I feel that I understand the nature of what I believe, seeing as how I'm the one who believes it. You have a different definition of "atheist"; that's fine, but that's not the definition myself and many other atheists use, nor is it even the definition of the word "atheist" in a literal sense. I didn't mean it as a personal insult.

There goes society then as you have conceded that in the above statement.

Culture, traditions, yes, much of those come from Christianity. I don't think I ever said otherwise. I'm only saying that I think that morality and law doesn't. "Society" was a poor choice of words on my part, because I think society covers both morals/law and cultures/traditions. To be clear, I agree that much of our culture and our customs and our traditions come from Christianity.

1. George Washington, Deist. Swore in on the bible. As a Deist he held respect for the bible as a source of moral teaching and imparted these morals on to his citizens. Lets face it, even some of the bibles less credible suggstions were taken on board. Like slavery, which was legal at the time.

So far as being sworn in on the Bible, I think the Constitution proves that to be an invalid argument, unless you're arguing that Washington disagreed with the Constitution. It expressly forbids requiring a religion test. If Washington himself invoked God in some way, I consider that a personal decision, not reflective of the official stance of our government.

As I said, our current leaders are still mostly Christian, and yet our laws aren't now based directly upon Christianity. It is possible for someone to belong to a religion, and not let that religion affect everything they do in their professional life. George Washington's belief or non-belief in God doesn't prove anything about whether our law is based upon a belief or non-belief in gods.

2. Christianity was the major religion in America when it was founded. Why would the society be based on anything else.

This is the Argument from Incredulity, i.e. "I can't think of anything other than X that can be true, therefore X is true". That's not a valid argument.

3. Christian traditions have stayed in American Culture. Xmas, Easter etc.

I agree, but this has nothing to do with law.

4. American Law based on English Law. The whole concept of the American Constitution comes from the Magna Carta. England at the time was looked after by the Catholic church, though we know this changed in the 16th century. These laws were passed in the name of God.

Side note: I seem like a jerk in debates because people say things and then don't bother backing them up, and still expect me to concede the point. If you define your argument and back yourself up, as you just did, then I will respect your argument.

Anyways, this is a somewhat more convincing argument. I will agree that the founding fathers used the Magna Carta as basis for some US law.

Howeer, the links you posted don't say anything about the Magna Carta being based upon Catholicism, nor religion in general. In fact the second link says that it was formed because people were tired of the abuses of power by the king. The sections that do mention religion seem only to say "The king should not interfere with the church, or limit its power". This is not true in the US; churches are subject to law just as any other organization. We have church-state separation, but it seems to me as though it's as much intended to protect law from religion as it is to protect religion from law.

Could you give me a link showing specifically how religion was the BASIS for the Magna Carta? The document mentions God, but just saying "God" in a document doesn't mean that religion or God is the BASIS for that document.

It is long however and some of the laws are obsolete now, as you would expect, it is nearly 800 years old.

I think that is very relevant, actually. Assume that the Magna Carta was based upon Catholicism, and that the US used the Magna Carta as basis for our law. Even if that was true, would you at least agree that our CURRENT law is not based upon religion? Our law has changed a lot since the beginning. Witness the fact that abortion is legal, for example, but seen as wrong by Catholics. Divorce is legal (not permitted in the Catholic Church so far as I know). Women are equal to men; women are not equal to men in the Catholic church. Christians are equal to non-Christians in terms of our law; in Catholicism this isn't true.

As I said, it's possible to swear in court without using a Bible. It's possible to marry without using a church or a priest, and that marriage is equal to a religious one. I can own land, just like a Christian; in the very beginning, only Christian men could own land, but we've abandoned that kind of primitive notion. Women can vote and hold office; they can't be priests in the Catholic church.

To say that US law is "based upon" religion, you seem to be using "based upon" in an extremely weak sense, that is, very unspecific. A government based upon religion, to me, is for example an Arab country in which the official religion is Islam, and Islam features specifically in the law. I would say that some of the early colonies' governments WERE deeply rooted in Christianity; it was illegal not to go to church in some places, for example; non-Christians were thrown out of society; etc. etc. That kind of thing is, to me, being "based upon" religion. That's not true of the US as it turned out, or as it currently stands.

You could as much say that our country is "rooted" in ancient Greek beliefs as you could say that our country is "rooted" in Christianity, since democracy is THE overriding principle upon which we function, and the Greeks were famous for implementing democracy.

I would argue that our country was (and is) influenced by a great many things in a great many ways, including but not limited to religion, but to say that religion is the "basis" for our country is to take things a bit too far.

[Doc Sark]

Unne, I don't expect you to concede anything. You are entitled to what you believe as am I. As far as being a jerk, well you would be if you conceded a point without good reason so I respect you for not, just don't be rude. I am an Atheist too, because I have considered the options and decided they are all poppycock (how very british of me to use that word!!).

As for the argument of incredulity, hmmm you don't seriously expect me to agree with that. What I said is fact. It's not that I couldn't think of anything. Also I am not saying that the laws in America today are directly from religion, obviously amendments have been made to the laws since they were first written to accomodate changes in society.

As for the founding fathers. It has been noted on this thread that some of them were Deists, it is concievable that they believed in passing laws etc they were doing Gods work. Monarchs and Leaders have done this in the past. "In God we trust."

http://www.britainexpress.com/Histor.../christmas.htm

As I said, it's possible to swear in court without using a Bible. It's possible to marry without using a church or a priest, and that marriage is equal to a religious one. I can own land, just like a Christian; in the very beginning, only Christian men could own land, but we've abandoned that kind of primitive notion. Women can vote and hold office; they can't be priests in the Catholic church. --Dr. Unne

First off, marriage is a poor example because again it IS based upon a religion. It is a religious ceremony that we have assimilated into our culture, like Xmas and Easter, whether we adopt the religious way to do it or not.

I think the following quote epitomises morality and interpretations of this have changed over time as human beings as a race advance and become more enlightened, for me at least, it is one of the most profound statements the bible has to offer.

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Not too fussed about the I am the lord bit because I don't believe in him, but nevertheless this is telling human beings to be good to one another and it works within a society. I very rarely consult the bible for quotes but this concerns the essence of morality and the law is there to uphold the morals of society. For me this deals with your fundamental laws. Not doing unpleasant things to one another. I think now I would have to say that I don't believe Civil Laws to be based upon a religion, having researched the Magna Carta further today, though it is interesting to point out that the law was passed in the name of God and after the King James II was deposed it was made law that all leaders of England had to be Church of England Protestant, I believe this was in 1689. It is clear that the curch had an unnatrual amount of power, something it no longer has. Yet in an interesting yet rather confusing contradiction, early civil cases were dealt with in a church court.

http://www.englishorigins.com/help/ChurchCourts.aspx

I would argue that our country was (and is) influenced by a great many things in a great many ways, including but not limited to religion, but to say that religion is the "basis" for our country is to take things a bit too far. --Dr. Unne

This too is a very weak arguement. Very unspecific as you have accused me of at times. Obviously a country today, ANY country, is shaped by its history. Maybe I do take things a little too far by what I have previously said, but I think I have made a case for American laws and society, as is the title of the thread, hold many of their roots, not all perhaps though you have yet to give me an example of anything else, in religion, in this case Christianity and Catholicism.

I honestly think we have hit a brick wall here. There clearly is not going to be a right or wrong to this debate, as I don't honestly think there is a 100% right or wrong answer. I think we could debate this for days on end but I am supposed to revising for my finals in 12 days and I have spent a lot of time and energy debating this with you, my opinions are important to me Dr. Unne but I would like to get my degree!!! I've definitely learned a lot from this which can only be a good thing right?

[Dr Unne]

I would be willing and delighted to concede any argument, if someone shows me how I'm wrong.

I think the following quote epitomises morality and interpretations of this have changed over time as human beings as a race advance and become more enlightened, for me at least, it is one of the most profound statements the bible has to offer.

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

I think this is the epitome of morality too, i.e. treat others like you want to be treated. It's also part of almost every single religion on the planet, and it's also part of my own morality even though I don't believe in God. My point being, I think that morality is for the most part a "common sense" thing, and just because Christianity grabs some parts and claims them, doesn't mean that it originated there.

Maybe I do take things a little too far by what I have previously said, but I think I have made a case for American laws and society, as is the title of the thread, hold many of their roots, not all perhaps though you have yet to give me an example of anything else, in religion, in this case Christianity and Catholicism.

I gave an example of many things which directly contradict the position of Catholicism. Equality of women, abortion, divorce.

This too is a very weak arguement. Very unspecific as you have accused me of at times.

Exactly. I was never making a specific claim, you were. I don't think any one thing can be pinned down as the basis of US law.

There clearly is not going to be a right or wrong to this debate, as I don't honestly think there is a 100% right or wrong answer.

I think there's almost always a right or wrong, but sometimes things are a bit fuzzy, especially where the terms aren't rigorously defined. I'm willing to drop it.

I've definitely learned a lot from this which can only be a good thing right?

That's the whole point of talking to anyone, right? I always learn something.

[Dragonflame]

Actually, I don't think it really matters whether or not our laws are based on Chrisianity. I've never heard anyone say that they don't think murder, theft, rape, assault, etc. should be illegal. Thus, the whole argument is pointless.

[Dr Unne]

It is pointless, until someone says something like "Gay marriage should be illegal, because our laws are based on the Bible, and all laws are based on the Bible". Then, it becomes useful to know whether or not the Bible does/should hold any sway when deciding our laws.

[gokufusionss1]

we'll for a christian the bible is the word of god and surely the words of the creator should have some bearing on our society and laws?

[Doc Sark]

It is pointless, until someone says something like "Gay marriage should be illegal, because our laws are based on the Bible, and all laws are based on the Bible". Then, it becomes useful to know whether or not the Bible does/should hold any sway when deciding our laws. --Dr. Unne

Exactly. Thanks for the challenge Dr. Unne you certainly don't make debating easy. It's refreshing to have someone argue back with relevance. You don't happen to know anything useful on the Harlem Renaissance do you? I have to answer a question on it for one of my exams. PM me if you have any opinions on it, I would be most interested to hear them.

[Strider]

You know, you could reach farther back in history and claim our American laws are a derivative of the Justinian Code. It gathered Roman law under one roof back in the 6th century, and eventually became the basis for Western law. The Magna Carta, on the other hand, was more a set of concessions made the King of England to his people.

The Justinian Code and the philosophies of John Locke. If you wanted to say America was based on a certain religion, it'd have to be Protestantism (seeing as Maryland was the only Catholic colony that became a part of the U.S.). Still, it's a bit of a stretch to say our laws and society were based on religious doctrines and the like.

[Clyde Arronway]

at my school is a five hundered page book of the documentation of america's roots in God. The founding fatherd didn't want a bill of rights because they considered it redundant, it would codify rights given by God. Washington's inauguration speech: "this country owes more to the invisible hand [God] than any other on earth" terrible paraprase, but...
let me ask you. What are the battle cries of the revolution. Have you ever heard them. I'd be supprised if you did, they're pretty politically incorrect: "No king but King Jesus!" Modern historians try to claim that the founding fathers were deists. This doesn't work. Jefferson and Franklin were, and coincidentially they are focused on more than any others. That deist concept doesn't work because the prayer journal of Washington is considered to be one of the better christian prodistant devotional works. Go back further. The first governing city on this continent was the massachusets colony, who saught to become a "shining city on a hill" the same language used in matthew five to describe the followers of christ. The fact is that if the colonists weren't fighting for their God they wouldn't have revolted knowing what would happen to them. Most of the signers of the decleration of independance had bad happen to them in the war. Five were executed as traitors.Twelve had their homes raized to the ground. Two had sons killed in the war, two more had sons captured in the war, nine died in the war! What can make men do this. Liberty that they will never taste. What makes iraqis blow themselves up in the streets for a hopeless cause. Colonial america is much to england as iraq is to us as far as military power (it's not imperialism, don't get any ideas).

Now to the government itself. Why do we have a senate. That's roman. Why do we have two houses? That's the form of government used by the jews sometime after the decline of their monarchial powers. It's strongly religious. It was fed with many religious things. That's why the marriage amendment is so debated. Marriage is religious. The church essentially owns marriage, and the conservative church wants it back the way they gave it to them. Religion loaned somthing to the government. The responsibility of the government is to take care of what we have given to them as we want it taken care of. The reason there's so much controversy is because the church is as happy with getting back a different form of marriage as you'd be if while I was houssitting for you, I burnt your house down because I claimed it as mine. Now I know that's a touchy subject but it's the best practical example of lending somthing to the government. PLEASE take it as such and not a point to debate. I don't want to start a terrible tangent.

[Dr Unne]

Clyde Arronway, without giving sources, there isn't much to debate anyways; just a bunch of assertions on your part. I find it hard to believe a lot of what you said, and I rather fully disagree with you about marriage, but I'll drop it.

Doc Sark, I've never heard of the Harlem Rennaisance.

[Doc Sark]

Oh well never mind. It's considered to be an important movement in American Modernity, loads of fromer slaves flocking to New York because it was seen as a cultural mecca, blah blah blah. Is it possible fro something to be interesting yet deeply boring at the same time

[The Captain]

"Doc Sark, I've never heard of the Harlem Rennaisance."

Wow, really?! I always thought that was a major event in the history of progressive thought in America, and thus was well known throughout the country. Perhaps I'm just bias because I live close to Harlem..

Langston Hughes, jazz music, it all came out of that time.

Take care all.

[Doc Sark]

I love langston hughes. His poetry is great. Hey captain maybe you can help me. Please PM me if you have info on it.