The problem, Big D, is how do you desintegrate the whole group. It's very easy to say it, but every time you get one, two more join. It's like a cancer.
The ideal thing would be to find peace between our OBVIOUSLY SUPERIOR (:rolleyes2) culture and theirs. How to do that....uh... Habermas wrote a book about it, I think. I should read it.
I agree with Big D that it's foolish and ignorant to blame "Arabs" for this.
I also agree that there shouldn't be civilians at all, but there has to be some personell to rebuild and help that country in what it needs. But, would it be impossible to have some sort of military escorts to protect civilian workers there? Does anyone have any clue how many western civilians are there at the moment?
Also also - Try to imagine if YOUR country was invaded like this in the first place. Do you think it'd be safe for invader-country civilians to just hang around there? I think it'd be very naive to assume it would be safe for them.
My point is, that human are not so different when they're driven to corner back against a wall, and they are ready to do almost anything just because of pure anger. And I think many Iraqis has reason to be angry. I would be very angry if Finland was invaved. Note: I'm not defending these actions, for they are disgusting - just saying that many people in US would be ready to do the same in Iraqis' postion.
('-'*)/ - "sup"
I find it pretty disturbing that in the thread about the Americans abusing Iraqis, you were all pissed and saying there are no excuses... but now, you find all sorts of excuses. "Pushed to the corner", "Cultural habits", my foot... they decapitated a man. An innocent man. Face it, and don't get all double-standardised.
When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one yourself... when gazing into the abyss, bear in mind that the abyss also gazes into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
The rightful owner of this Ciddie can kiss my arse! :P
I never said there are no excuses, but I say it now. There's no excuses; there are reasons. But if you would have to look at excuses, they just want their invader to leave, no matter what. And I'm equally pissed, if it was American soldier doing this, I would be just as pissed. I'm not biased about any of this to neither direction. What they did was disgusting and horrible.
Everything I said and meant, is that also US soldiers would be capable to decapitate man in similar circumstances.
('-'*)/ - "sup"
I don't think the people who did this were even Iraqi. The news says it was a Jordanian. "This is revenge for the prison abuse" was likely just a convenient excuse. Didn't they also capture and behead a reporter, a while back? Why did they do that?
If my country was occupied, I would not capture civilians and murder them and put videos of it on the internet, no. Any reason other than that those people are sick, evil freaks, is a justification and an excuse.
I wouldn't do that either, Unne, but there are people ready to do that as we can see. :\
('-'*)/ - "sup"
No. You wouldn't because you are an intelligent, educated person with high moral standards living in a society that, to a greater or lesser degree upholds such standards. But there are people in every country who would be capable of such acts. It is one of the unfortunately uglier aspects of human nature.Originally Posted by Dr Unne
Well, suppose your whole family was killed, for example. And your friends. Would you do it then?
I think I would not do it, I'd probably just go madly depressed, and probably after I'd just join any resistance group and would not care about dying, not like I'd have much to do. I don't believe I'd decapitate an unarmed person though, because that would make me as bad as them.
I can understand the resistance groups that act against soldiers though. I do not agree with what they do, but I'd probably do the same in their case. I understand them fighting against their...ahem...liberators, and I can understand the soldiers shooting back. Sorry, I don't think there are any good guys in this war.
But there are people in every country who would be capable of such acts. --Skogs
Agreed, I probably know some fellow Americans who would.
Well, suppose your whole family was killed, for example. And your friends. Would you do it then? --Shadow Nexus
I would defend my family, even by killing, but that's different than kidnapping an innocent civilian and murdering him in cold blood (in the name of a god, no less), and then publishing footage of it to terrorize people.
You know before this Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal, Iraqis were doing bad to are troops before that. An this guy that was beheaded wasnt in the military, he was a civilian contractor. Those guys that abused the Iraqi prisoners, only humilated them. Nothing as bad as killing them all.
But that's the thing we arn't trying to take over their country we are trying to help them. the man they killed was trying to help them. there's no exscuse for that. Yu don't kill people who are trying to help your people. The U.S. is trying to help the people of Iraq and set up a democracy so there won't be anymore crazy leaders in control. NOT TO TAKE OVER THE COUNTRY.
Meanwhile, America is occupying Iraq, by means of military force. You can't expect Iraqis to like that, right?NOT TO TAKE OVER THE COUNTRY.
And about that whole business of 'helping them'... get off that tree. You don't help a nation by conquering it. America got into Iraq, to bring down Saddam, destroy his WMD infrastrcture, and cut his aid to terrorists. You came there to fight evil, and that's what you must continue on doing. America shouldn't act all saint-like... it's unbecoming, and seems rather pretentious, as well.
When fighting monsters, be wary not to become one yourself... when gazing into the abyss, bear in mind that the abyss also gazes into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
The rightful owner of this Ciddie can kiss my arse! :P
Yes, of course.
As far as I know, that guy was there for business stuff, something about a company he was doing stuff with. I didn't listen to the news very clearly, but I heard something like that. Correct me if I am wrong.
No, I'm sorry, that war is a taking over of the country, an invasion. Just look at how American companies are installing there to take profit of the reconstruction. Does USA want a muslim fundamentalist goverment to kick all their corporations away? No, they want a nice puppet democracy, that will give some kind of pseudo-legitimization to the war and help them mantain things going. And then they will say they did it for democracy and world peace. Yeah, right, like the Spanish conquistadores went to South America to "cristianize the little indians and save them from hell". Thats what they told people then. Of course, in pre-modernity, wars were done because "God is with us". Now it's "reason" who is with us. Well, thats nice, but I'm not believing their fairy tale.
I am not surprised there are so many people fighting the troops. No one wanted Saddam, so the first step was done. Then no one wants the troops, so they want them away too.
Seriously, if this war was for democracy, they could have done it anywhere.
Uh, actually an unkown number of prisoners have been murdered by their jailers - beaten to death, in most cases.You know before this Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal, Iraqis were doing bad to are troops before that. An this guy that was beheaded wasnt in the military, he was a civilian contractor. Those guys that abused the Iraqi prisoners, only humilated them. Nothing as bad as killing them all.
Besides, this latest terrorist crime has nothing to do with "Iraqis"; it was an Al Qaeda act. This has been confirmed.
Nothing can justify or excuse blatant acts of barbarism, by anyone. The contractor who was murdered was completely innocent; the Iraqis murdered and tortured in prison haven't been convicted of anything either, and most likely the majority weren't responsible for such acts of depraved cruelty. "An Arab did it to us, so we're allowed to do it to Arabs" is the worst possible reasoning in a situation like this.
You guys see the video off consumption junction !? Its outrageous, even on there message boards, those guys are a-holes.I cant believe they even put it up.. We should get some mercenaries in there to kill them all. Hell, if I was old enough Id go over there and kill. I just think this is a kill or be killed situation right here. Even if your fighting over there, you get captured they will kill you. Unlike the U.S. who captures them, we dont decapitate them..
No, they want a nice puppet democracy
And whats wrong with democracy in Iraq? Do you think dictatorship is better? Look at Japan as a result of world war 2, WE HELPED THEM! An Japan is prospering even today...
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