Interesting Article in the Washington Post

[DocFrance]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004May30.html

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[Skogs]

It's no one's fault but his own that he's made a complete idealogical 180 since he was kicked out of the Air Force. You make your choices in life, and you deal with the consequences of them. I would have been proud to stand up to that General, proud to have stood up for what I believed in, proud that I would not be forced into fighting for something in which I didn't believe. But then I guess I'm not him.

[Burtsplurt]

He did what he thought was right. I don't think one can ask any more than that.

I don't get what he's saying. He still doesn't believe in Vietnam... yet he regrets not serving? That sounds bizarre. There's no point at all in fighting for something that you don't believe in.

[War Angel]

He still doesn't believe in Vietnam... yet he regrets not serving? That sounds bizarre.

That's because he understand the duty of a soldier. You think all the soldiers that went into Iraq, or Vietnam, were happy to do so? I can assure you, many weren't. But, they realised it was their duty, their country's decision, and that it was what they had to do. To them, it goes beyond personal beliefs and needs.

[DocFrance]

That's because he understand the duty of a soldier. You think all the soldiers that went into Iraq, or Vietnam, were happy to do so? I can assure you, many weren't. But, they realised it was their duty, their country's decision, and that it was what they had to do. To them, it goes beyond personal beliefs and needs.

You hit the nail on the head. When you put on the uniform of your country, it's not about what you think is right - it's about your duty, and what you have sworn to uphold and defend.

"I DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR (OR AFFIRM) THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC; THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; AND THAT I WILL OBEY THE ORDERS OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE ORDERS OF THE OFFICERS APPOINTED OVER ME, ACCORDING TO REGULATIONS AND THE UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE. SO HELP ME GOD." ---US Armed Forces Oath of Enlistment

[Burtsplurt]

As far as I'm concerned, that's crazy.

[Skogs]

Agreed. I could never have that much faith in my 'superiors'.

[Anaralia]

Agreed. That's way too much trust.

[DocFrance]

As far as I'm concerned, that's crazy.

Agreed. I could never have that much faith in my 'superiors'.

Agreed. That's way too much trust.

Then obviously none of you belong in military service. You should be lucky that you have the choice not to be.

[Skogs]

Then obviously none of you belong in military service.

I couldn't agree with you more.

You should be lucky that you have the choice not to be.

You always have the choice. It just depends how far you are willing to to go to protect your right to choose.

[Dr Unne]

So far as I understand, part of being in the military means following orders even if you don't agree with them, so long as the orders are lawful. Even if your commander orders you to your death, you have to trust that it's worth it, that you're probably saving countless other lives by giving your own. A bunch of people running around doing whatever they want to do isn't an army that's going to be successful. Your superiors in the army are your superiors in the ways that matter, i.e. they know how to lead, and they know how to win battles.

[DocFrance]

So far as I understand, part of being in the military means following orders even if you don't agree with them, so long as the orders are lawful. Even if your commander orders you to your death, you have to trust that it's worth it, that you're probably saving countless other lives by giving your own. A bunch of people running around doing whatever they want to do isn't an army that's going to be successful. Your superiors in the army are your superiors in the ways that matter, i.e. they know how to lead, and they know how to win battles.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[The Man]

I agree with that, which is one reason of many that I have no desire to serve in the armed forces, particularly at the moment.

At any rate, I should hope that a soldier would question his orders if he believed them to be morally objectionable; not doing so could potentially lead to atrocities on a grand scale.

I've an interesting counterpoint to that article here - although, by no means, am I condemning everyone who serves/served in Vietnam and Iraq, and neither is the letter. The truly important stuff is at the end.

[Super Christ]

I agree with you completely, Man. It's too bad that oath doesn't include going against your superiors when they are clearly, inarguably wrong. For example, the abuses at the Abu Gharaib prision were evil by pretty much every definition of the word, and completely inexcuable; and yet, the man who released the information about what was going on is being punished by the army. If Bush does not correct this situation, which he can being commander in-chief of the army, I will have no respect for him as a human being. This guy knew he couldn't stop these atrocities except by letting the world know what was going on. He should be commended.

Yeah. I definitely wouldn't do well in the army, as I would refuse to follow orders that don't sit well with me. (Heck, I'm reluctant to take orders in the first place.) I'm just glad I have a choice about it. And it damn well better stay that way.

[DocFrance]

It's too bad that oath doesn't include going against your superiors when they are clearly, inarguably wrong.

Yes it does.

"...AND THAT I WILL OBEY THE ORDERS OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE ORDERS OF THE OFFICERS APPOINTED OVER ME, ACCORDING TO REGULATIONS AND THE UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE..."

That means that if you're given an illegal order, you have the right not to follow it.