Griever

[nik0tine]

hey, i was wondering, what is the connection, if any, between squall and griever. or was griever simply used for the sole purpose of underscoring squalls bravery? how does he have the neclace, ring, gunblade and gunblade case with griever on it. i have always wondered but i have never seen any apparent connection. what do you think?

[Big D]

There's this theory some people follow, called "R=U", which means "Rinoa=Ultimecia". They believe that Ultimecia is really a future version of Rinoa. Griever, they say, is strong evidence of this.

Personally, I reckon Griever is a legendary monster from the past, like many other GFs. Squall admires lions, and Griever is a giant, winged lion spirit, so I can understand why he'd pick Griever as a "mascot" for himself. He believes Griever to be the most powerful GF, a belief that Ultimecia shares. That'd explain why she has the GF in her possession. Being the most powerful sorceress, she'd have access to the most powerful weapons.

Also, it makes the final battle more poignant, since Squall has to fight and defeat the mythical beast he believes to be the strongest.

R=U conspiracy theorists think that the GF Griever was drawn from Squall's ring (even though the same symbol's on a lot of his stuff), or that Squall himself was transformed into Griever.
Honestly...

[Trumpet Thief]

We don't actually know what Griever is, besides the fact that it is a GF.

Some people say it was drawn from Squall's ring, much like the GF Doomtrain, which supports in the Rinoa=Ultimecia theory.

Others say it was a legendary Gf which Squall had heard about, this keeping the ring that is supposed to represent Griever.

Neither of them has been confirmed though...

[PhoenixAsh]

I personally prefer the idea that Griever was created by Rinoa after Squall's death, there are quite a few lines that lead me to think this makes the most sense.
As far as logic goes there are gaps with most of the explanations, though R=U makes for a better story in my opinion.

[Rand Al'Tor]

Same as PhoenixAsh. Am in favour of R=U, but there's no need for Griever to be catually drawn out of teh ring.

As for D's explanation. It might be possible... But would they go through the trouble of making a mythical super-monster that gets the high honour of actually getting a possible custom name (which, being not SOLELY a GF, is something reserved to Squall, Rinoa and Angelo) would be a tad more important, and there'd actually be an explicit MENTION of 'the legendary lion Griever? I always had the impression that Squall named the lion Griever himself. If Square went through the trouble of flagging such an obvious Squall/Ultimecia connection beyond 'enemies' there has to be an explanation that has implications for the plot.

And again as Ash says. Without the R=U theory we fight 'a generic evil Sorceress from the future' I like to give Squaresoft more credit than that.

[GhandiOwnsYou]

My logic follows a non R=U. Follow me here. There is supposedly a ridiculously strong bond between sorceress and knight correct? my belief is that with death occuring between knight and sorceress and the same time, They combine using a bit of the receeding sorceress power to form a GF, perhaps something to do with hyne or whatever. Squall and Rinoa, when killed, would combine into Griever, and be used in Garden. When Ulti defeats garden in the future, after having gained sorceresss power through lineage or just passing in death, she comes across griever. she draws Griever and the other Gf's, and continues on til the finla battle, but when time compress', b/c squall and crew have all teh otehr GF's, from a prior time, she loses all GF's other than griever. viola. my boneheaded swiss-cheese theory.

[Carnage]

I hafto go lie down now that confused me more than i confuse myself.

[GhandiOwnsYou]

yeah, i know. welcome to the world of FFVIII

[Mo-Nercy]

I used to be a supporter of R=U, but I don't really care anymore. I admire FF8 as my favourite game for what it is, not what I think it should be. If Rinoa was Ultimecia, that's her problem. She can go have her own little identity crisis in the corner over there because I'd prefer not to skepticise about a theory that doesn't lead to any answers.

It's nice to think that it's true but since there's no way of proving it, I say, forget it. Let's just play the game again and bask in it's glory.

[GhandiOwnsYou]

Werd up too Doomsday for somewhat agreeing with me. and i had enver really thought about the NAME griever as evidence. +1 good point for my theory

[fire_of_avalon]

There is a lot of evidence to support the R=U theory,, so I am in that favor. For one thing, you have the choice to name Griever whatever you want, which means basically only Squall knows his name, (besides Rinoa of course), so Squall and Rinoa are the only ones who really heard of Griever, while the others just called him the lion on Squalls ring. So if Rinoa and Squall are the ONLY ones who heard of Griever, then how did Ultimicia find out? Thus the R=U. It would make a lot of sense if Squall is also Griever because that is the second person who knows Griever, and maybe this is where they got the idea of FFX where a human takes on the form of a summon.

You can name any GF whatever you want. I don't support the R=U theory. There's no reason for Rinoa to become that. It's not in her nature.

[Snowman]

ive never heard the R=U theory..it's stupid. it's more obvious that rinoa would have passed her powers onto someone and they then passed them onto Ultimacia, or since thers so many bratts running around garden Rinoa gave them to an heir and they turned EVIL. as for griever, doomsday was trapped in a ring, squals ring had griever on it....why didnt ultimacia just unleash griever form teh ring in the future.

[Sir Bahamut]

Actually, it is easy to show that Griever was either a GF junctioned to Squall or that Ultimecia created him based on images in his head.

Just combine the japanese text with the english text, and you'll see that Ultimecia "draws" Griever from Squalls mind right there and then in battle.

Doesn't support R=U in any way, as Ultimecia required no previous knowledge of it. It did not come from the ring either, so that's out the window.

oh, and if you ask how she knew his name: if she were able to draw it straight from his mind, she should easily be able to read their minds enough to figure out what it's called.

[Rand Al'Tor]

It's true that that explanation of the scan is a bit contradictory to other stuff. It seems... odd to me that Square would go through the whole process of making a big mess about naming the ring just so 'the random sorceress can make a GF based on his ring'

I kinda wonder if the scan-descriptions were made by the same guys who had the broader story in mind. Screw-ups DO happen. (Or maybe Square originally intended to go with explicit R=U, thought that'd be TOO depressing and made some small alterations to give those who are happy a warm and fuzzy ending) Whatever the case, that scan is not enough to convince me of the wrongness fo R=U

As I see it, the story is a LOT better WITH the R=U theory, as it gives a lot fo otherwise 'random' interjections sense and purpose. A bad way to conside rthe world in REAL LIFE, but within a game, how likely is it that Square 'accidenally' hinte dat a story that improves on the story. (of course 'improves' is a subjective thing) But one of themain complaints about FFVIII is 'the final boss appears out of nowhere'

Well, R=U is the solution. A mindf...twist enough to make Squall cry...

And remember hose that say that Rinoa would never, ever do something like that. She DID wish for time to stop when she was with Squall. Sure, that's something lovers say, but ina game with time compression, I REALLY think Squae wants to tell us something is Rinoa uses THAT sentence, especiall since she also says that she might turn evil and that if she does 'Squall's gunblade will pierce her heart' Come on, I do NOT believe Square tossed in that foreshadowing 'accidentally'

And Snowman... while technically, it could be, from a storytelling PoV it's a bad idea to have the ultimate villain be someone you never met before.

[Sir Bahamut]

Oh, I'm not arguing against the theory(if you've read the R=U topic here recently you would know that), I'm just pointintg out that Griever cannot be used as conclusive evidence for R=U, because everything points to him being made there and then.