Why take a Red Mage?

[BottledJustice]

Note: This is meant to be an intelligent debate. In other words, no posts that say something useless like "Red Mages r0x0rs!" or "Red Mages are the Anti-Christ!" Keep it smart, people.

Now, my question is, why should an experienced FF1 player likie myself take a Red Mage?

Please, actual reasons are preferred, not just personal preferrence.

[Black Mage FF1]

Note: This is meant to be an intelligent debate. In other words, no posts that say something useless like "Red Mages r0x0rs!" or "Red Mages are the Anti-Christ!" Keep it smart, people.

Now, my question is, why should an experienced FF1 player likie myself take a Red Mage?

Please, actual reasons are preferred, not just personal preferrence.

You should take the Red Mage because he is a great character. He is better then the Black Mage. He has the second best attack throughout majority of the game. He has decent hp (better then the Black Mages). He has great defense throughout majority of the game. He can also use both white and black magic which is really helpful. There really is no reason to NOT take him. Who do you use instead of the Red Mage? The thief? If so then that is a poor decision considering that the
- RMs are physically stronger than Thieves
- RMs have more HP than Thieves
- RMs can use much more magic than Thieves
- RMs have more MagDef than Thieves.

[Bahamut2000X]

Red Mages are just gods near the start of the game and somewhat in the middle. At least in my experience anyways. But ya any guy for can break out a cure 2 followed by a fire 2 spell while doing some great damage with his sword is definatly on my party list.

Although by the end they kind of suck compared to other classes, but I hear just give em a sun sword and fast em and they become gods again.

Although you could not go with Red Mage, bt you miss out on the sweetness of going from burning the monsters to a crisp with black magic then switching on to healing up the party, then back to burning, all in one fight.

[Del Murder]

Red Mages are good fighters and can use most of the decent spells in the game. Having that extra power helped near the start and another player with Life1 is good insurance if the White Mage goes down. Near the end if you give them the Masamune they can kill most baddies with one hit.

[Martyr]

Red Mages are all around good characters. A beginner can have a ball with them. Wear it out like a rag, and then use it as minor assist in the late game.

I don't like the red mage because it never finishes the job. You gotta equip him with the Masmune, in most cases, to kill a freaking worm in one hit.
Ohterwise it's all a wait. Knight attacks Worm, 500 dmg. Worm dies. BB attacks Worm, 550 dmg. Worm Dies. RM attacks Worm, 346 dmg. Worm attacks BM, 140 DMG, BW (Who had lost Hps recently) dies!

I hate having to have another character finish the mess when one combatant doesn't kill a monster that it should have killed. Big problem with this with RM. Even the Ninja has a better chance of not needing assistance than the RM.

Also, the RM has dung for running skills. The fighter and blackbelt and even the WM seem to get more close calls. That, combined with the RMs incapacity to finish what he starts, gives me reason to click to the pure breed class of my preference.

Also, if you're a veteran player, you have no need for the overwhelming power that a Red Mage brings to the early game. You'
re looking for a challenge, not mush. I wouldn't use a red mage on the basis that it's practically cheating in the beginning and utterly annoying in the end.

So that's my opinion.

[Bahamut2000X]

I hate having to have another character finish the mess when one combatant doesn't kill a monster that it should have killed.

Your asking for the Red Mage to become a uber melee. That's not what they are, they are a mix of magic and fighting, not as good at fighting like the monk and warrior, but having the magic to heal and nuke when needed. If your complaining a Red Mage can't kill a strong monster in one hit like the melee, might as well complain Ninja can't kill them in one hit, or Black Mage, or White Mage.

The thing about a Red Mage it is meant to excel in fighting over the other mages (which it does) but not be so godly strong that it IS a melee. And on the other hand it casts magic but so much that it becomes only a mage. It's a mix of the two and that's why it's such a good class, because you get a guy who can whip out a FIR2 to decimate the enemies, then a CUR2 to keep your tank up, then bring out his sword and conserve MP will still doing some good damage to the monsters.

[Martyr]

But it can't do all that at once. And, ultimately, it's going to have to be all meelee because the spell power falls to pieces. It simply becomes inferior to the ninja because the ninja can cast Fast AND do more damage.
What's the RM going to do? Cast Ice3 against monsters w/o weak points?

Nah. It's still a pain in the arse whichever way you look at it. And it's an insult to the use of a sword like the Defense, which can actually kill things in the hands of a Knight.

Edit: Yeah, I'm impossible.

[Bahamut2000X]

Actually Red Mage get's fast as well. And in addition, unlike a Ninja, can cast Life and other cure spells. Anyone who knows how to use a Red Mage to thier fullest knows that you can't just take one aspect of them, like the other classes, and just do that one this over and over. A truly effective Red Mage will be nuking as needed, curing when needed or if the White Mage is taken down, and meleeing to help kill/damage enemies. Not to mention they add much more MP that can be put to better use than any Ninja, in addition to them learning more spells and wider variety of spells. In addition they can help get through the tough dungeons by helping the White Mages conserve thier MP for healing later on.

Over all I'ld say a Red Mage used right is very useful.

[Martyr]

Right. It's an absolute assist character. It can't do anything on it's own.
My experience is that the spell points run out too fast, and then the fighting skill is too mediocre. It is too versatile to be effective. Too much crap crammed into a single character. You gotta decide whether or not to kill the zombies or whether your fighter will get hurt and need a cure down the road... You gotta decide whether to use a spell or not...
Maybe it's good for a veteran who wants to find a challenge, but that's your own look-out. I like a challenge, and I use RMs accordingly, but I wouldn't actually call it a good class. Useful maybe, but not all that great.

Ultimately, Red mages never last. It's always better to take a pure class. Either cast a spell or fight. You can't do everything at once and still be effective.
That's still my standing opinion.

And I freaking know that RMs can cast FAST. I meant that a Ninja can do it as easily, not that RMs can't.

[Black Mage FF1]

I don't like the red mage because it never finishes the job. You gotta equip him with the Masmune, in most cases, to kill a freaking worm in one hit.
Ohterwise it's all a wait. Knight attacks Worm, 500 dmg. Worm dies. BB attacks Worm, 550 dmg. Worm Dies. RM attacks Worm, 346 dmg. Worm attacks BM, 140 DMG, BW (Who had lost Hps recently) dies!

Maybe that will teach you to not take a Bm.

I hate having to have another character finish the mess when one combatant doesn't kill a monster that it should have killed. Big problem with this with RM. Even the Ninja has a better chance of not needing assistance than the RM.

Nah, the Ninja with the Katana has just a good chance to kill a Worm as a RW with the Sun Sword. The Katana is only a little stronger then the Sun.

Also, the RM has dung for running skills. The fighter and blackbelt and even the WM seem to get more close calls. That, combined with the RMs incapacity to finish what he starts, gives me reason to click to the pure breed class of my preference.

Well running isnt a big problem. I rarely have a 4 person party that fails to run when I really need to. Besides the Rm has just a good chance to run as the Bm/Wm/Fi/BB.

Also, if you're a veteran player, you have no need for the overwhelming power that a Red Mage brings to the early game. You'
re looking for a challenge, not mush. I wouldn't use a red mage on the basis that it's practically cheating in the beginning and utterly annoying in the end.

That is wrong. There are many veterans (like myself) who use the Rm all the time. I dont really need a challenge anymore. After beating all the solos (including the Solo Thief No class change), there really isnt that much challenge left to the game.

But it can't do all that at once. And, ultimately, it's going to have to be all meelee because the spell power falls to pieces. It simply becomes inferior to the ninja because the ninja can cast Fast AND do more damage.
What's the RM going to do? Cast Ice3 against monsters w/o weak points?

Wrong.
1. The Rw has more magic then the Ninja. Making him more usefull.
2. The Rw has more spell choices then the Ninja.
3. The Rw doesnt need to do it all at once. No point in healing every damn turn, or casting spells every turn.
4. If the Monster happens to be a Gas Dragon then yes, the Rw SHOULD cast ICE3. That will be more helpful in that fight then a Ninja with the Katana.

Right. It's an absolute assist character. It can't do anything on it's own.
My experience is that the spell points run out too fast, and then the fighting skill is too mediocre.

Ok if you run out of spells with the Rm before you do with the Ninja then you dont know how to use the Rm.

Right. It's an absolute assist character

At the end of the game, yeah he sort of is. But so is the Ninja. At least the Rm is NOT an assist in the beginning. He is a great character. Unlike the thief who is worthless and CANNOT do anything usefull.


Heh, this is a long post.

[Martyr]

You can't tell me I'm wrong.
This is all strictly opinion.
You want my opinion? The Red Mage is a waste of a character. It's boring, it's not original, and it has no style except for the hat and cape (And the cape has bad graphics so, when I was younger, I thought he was casting spells through a water hose).

Making a character that does everything everybody else does, but worse, isn't cool enough for me. I don't care how useful he is. I don't care if he's an early to mid game god or if he's the greatest assist ever, he's a lousy character. A dull and generally bad concept. I don't like him! I don't like him! At least the Thief and Ninja have some dignity in being unique.

The Red Mage makes for a dull game. Either toio easy or too annoying. And if you find the RM to not be annoying, then good for you. What am I, chopped liver? (Yes?)

Anyway, I want to bail out of this debate.

[desh]

I would take the Red Mage if he could equip the fire/ice shield/armor (I give the opal bracelt to my black belt). I find the hardest part about this game is your armor equipment management. You only get 16 slots for armor, and yet there are times where you want different armor eq for different situations, but don't really have the option to switch because you're restricted by how much you can hold. I just find it odd how the Red Mage can equip heavier armor/weapons than the Thief, but the Ninja can equip heavier armor than the Red Wizard; it truly shows how the Red Mage is a great early game character and the Red Wizard is a crap late game character. And no, the Red Mage is only the second best fighter for the early part of the game. I find that the black belt is the second best fighter after level 10 or so, and the best fighter after level 24 or so.

Anyway, the best thing about a Red Wizard, is that he can cast both Exit and Warp (good for the last level), and if you want an all melee party, then he's better to take than a BW or WW.

[Sword Chucks]

A red mage is just perhaps someone's preference. But I think you're right-- red mage is pretty useless to a seasoned player.

[BottledJustice]

I'm so happy this turned out as well as it did. Although I feel I should apologize to Martyr for not being able to back him when he was fighting the good fight.

I also feel that I should add something. It is kinda stupid to make a thread and not post in it. I currently have many parties on many different games, and one of them is the powerhouse FI/FI/RM/BB. I have one major problem with this party, and that is the Red Mage. His attack strength pales in comparison to the other three, and I continuously find myself wishing I had taken a Black Mage instead. I have to conserve magic, even though they are level 13 or so. I'm getting steel armor, beating lich, and I don't even have one FIR3 yet. How are you supposed to use the helpful magical fighter when he has no spells to cast and his attack strength is terrible? With a White or Black Mage, they would already have at least two Cure 3 or Fire 3's. I just got Ice2 today. By which I mean I've had it bought since Marsh Cave, and I just got the MP to use it. I can honestly say that I will probably never use one again unless I lose all playing ability and I'm level 20 before I fight the pirates. By that point, the Red Mage might have one, or maybe even two Ice's!!! Wow!! That would be bad!

Also, in the armor aspect, I would take a Ninja over the Red Wizard any day. Flame Armor totally kills Silver. If you find it in a store, it probably isn't the best weapon or armor. The Ninja, biased as I am, is still better in attack with the Katana and defense with the Flame/Ice Armor than the Red Wizard. Everyone says, hey, give the RW the masamune and he'll kill almost anything in one hit! That goes for every character class! And another thing, the only enemies you are going to kill with the Masamune are enemies on the last two floors of the ToF 2000 years ago. The only way you are going to get out with it is if you take a good mage. And taking a Black/White mage with a red is stupid. After beating Kraken you'll realize how dumb you are for not taking a fighter or another mage to fill the spot. When you say, alright, LIT3 Kraken, and the only character you have with it is the BW, because the idiot Red hasn't gotten any yet, you'll switch to FAST, since you'll know the RW's attack is crummy beyond belief. So you use FAST on the RW, or maybe your Fighter, and while they kill Kraken, you just wasted one of 3 level four spells you've gotten by level 18. Congratulations, you have a useless character.

OK, enough ranting, but I have another question.

I enjoy having as many as 20 saved games at once. I need some new paries to try.

The ones I have currently are:

Single Master
Single Thief (going nowhere fast)
Fi/BB/WM/BM (Marak's Mod, pretty fun)
four BBs
FI/FI/RM/BB (Amusing, but kinda lame)
FI/BB/WM/BM (Regular game, didn't realize I had it till just now)

I can't believe that's it. Feed me parties, people, preferably nothing with RM's, unless it's something nuts, like FI/Fi/RM/RM, or RMx4.

I may post screenshots sometime, if I feel like it.

[Black Mage FF1]

You can't tell me I'm wrong.
This is all strictly opinion.

Ummm..

Originally Posted by Marty:
Also, if you're a veteran player, you have no need for the overwhelming power that a Red Mage brings to the early game. You'
re looking for a challenge, not mush. I wouldn't use a red mage on the basis that it's practically cheating in the beginning and utterly annoying in the end.

That is wrong. There are many veterans (like myself) who use the Rm all the time. I dont really need a challenge anymore. After beating all the solos (including the Solo Thief No class change), there really isnt that much challenge left to the game.

That is not an opinion. You are saying that vets like myself dont want to/need to use the Red Mage. You are TELLING us what we want. That is NOT an opinion.

Originally Posted by Martyr:
But it can't do all that at once. And, ultimately, it's going to have to be all meelee because the spell power falls to pieces. It simply becomes inferior to the ninja because the ninja can cast Fast AND do more damage.
What's the RM going to do? Cast Ice3 against monsters w/o weak points?

Wrong.
1. The Rw has more magic then the Ninja. Making him more usefull.
2. The Rw has more spell choices then the Ninja.
3. The Rw doesnt need to do it all at once. No point in healing every damn turn, or casting spells every turn.
4. If the Monster happens to be a Gas Dragon then yes, the Rw SHOULD cast ICE3. That will be more helpful in that fight then a Ninja with the Katana.

I was correcting you here because you were wrong. The Rm/Rw does not need to all that at once. And the Rm/RW has more Magic then the Ninja. Plus ICE3 is helpful.

A red mage is just perhaps someone's preference. But I think you're right-- red mage is pretty useless to a seasoned player.

*sigh* There are MANY MANY MANY MANY vets who use the Rm. They like myself prefer him over the useless Black Mage.

.
I have one major problem with this party, and that is the Red Mage. His attack strength pales in comparison to the other three, and I continuously find myself wishing I had taken a Black Mage instead.

Umm yeah, you do know that no other character can compare to the Damage of the Knight/Master. The Thief does not even come CLOSE. At least in the beginning the RM is stronger then the Thief and Black Belt. Why take the Bm? What will he do? Cast worthless magic? Attack for crap dmg?

I have to conserve magic, even though they are level 13 or so. I'm getting steel armor, beating lich, and I don't even have one FIR3 yet. How are you supposed to use the helpful magical fighter when he has no spells to cast and his attack strength is terrible? With a White or Black Mage, they would already have at least two Cure 3 or Fire 3's. I just got Ice2 today. By which I mean I've had it bought since Marsh Cave, and I just got the MP to use it. I can honestly say that I will probably never use one again unless I lose all playing ability and I'm level 20 before I fight the pirates. By that point, the Red Mage might have one, or maybe even two Ice's!!! Wow!! That would be bad!

You just dont know how to use the Red Mage. There is no need for Fire3 in the Earth Cave. The amount of magic he has is more then enough needed to complete it.

The only way you are going to get out with it is if you take a good mage. And taking a Black/White mage with a red is stupid. After beating Kraken you'll realize how dumb you are for not taking a fighter or another mage to fill the spot. When you say, alright, LIT3 Kraken, and the only character you have with it is the BW, because the idiot Red hasn't gotten any yet, you'll switch to FAST, since you'll know the RW's attack is crummy beyond belief. So you use FAST on the RW, or maybe your Fighter, and while they kill Kraken, you just wasted one of 3 level four spells you've gotten by level 18. Congratulations, you have a useless character.

You do know that the Rw can cast Exit too? But there is no point in leaving the TofR when you get the Masamune. Matter as well go beat the game.

Umm Lit3 doesnt do that much dmg to Kraken. Rw w/Fast/Sun or Defense = more dmg then the BW with Lit3. WOW! You wasted 1 of the lvl 4 spell charges! Even though at the TofR all the lvl 4 spells besides FAST are useless! Hell you dont need to use the fast spell for every boss fight in there. Just CHAOS/Lich/Kraken/Tiamat. At lvl 18 he has 4 and that is enough. At least when the Rm is out of magic he can attack and be useful, unlike the Bm.


BTW any party is better without a thief. Fi/Fi/Fi/Rm > Fi/Fi/Fi/Th. Thieves suck. Rm = better.

Lets see.

Throughout half the game the Rm does more damage then the Thief.
The Rm actually has magic.
The Rm has more Hp then the Thief
The Rm Mage as better defense

After Class change
The Ninja is still weaker until you get the Katana. Then he gets A LITTLE stronger then the Rm.
The Ninja has magic but the Rm still has more.
The Ninja gets some better armor. But so what? He gets it so late that it doesnt even matter.