Blinded by new-school

[-N-]

[q=S1999AD]Seriously speaking, though, do you think many "new-school" FF players have seen too much flashy 3D-graphics and extremely powerful eye candy spells that they can't appreciate what the FFs originally were?[/q]

No.

*concurs with Big D's well-constructed post*

You freaking voice of reason, you.

[Storm]

Those who have played the older FFs (1-6) and mostly liked them, do you think many FF gamers have indeed been blinded by the 3D-graphics used in the newer FFs?

I know many people who refuse to play the older games because of the graphics. Many times I have been playing Final Fantasy IV and my friends have commented,"The graphics in that game are terrible. How can you play it?" The thing is, when I play FFIV today I remember it just like I did the first time I played it back in 1992. Some of the graphics today still impress me, such as the interior of the Tower of Zot, Tower of Babil, and Giant of Babil.

I tried to get one of my friends into the series through Final Fantasy VI, and that failed miserably. Later on I tried again with Final Fantasy X, and it was a success.

OOC:	I still think FFIV deserves its own forum. That game is like the equivalent of the "Fellowship of the Ring". It's too bad that DPC and Takara are the only one's that agree.

In FFIV, for instance, (SPOILER) Cecil gets used and abused, turned into an instrument of murder, then fights back against his own people, losing a siege in the process, then finds out his beloved has been abducted, then gets shipwrecked and left thinking that all of his friends are either dead (Rydia, Edward, Yang) or have betrayed him (Kain). And all that's only a few hours into the plot... yet he never falters or suffers any kind of trauma, he just keeps soldierin' on.

This may be due to the fact that Cecil had (SPOILER) Lunarian blood in him. At the time, the Lunarians were far superior to the humans, hence more resilience to traumatizing events.

[Sephex]

While I do think there are many people who can't get into the old FFs because of outdated graphics, I don't think it is a huge rampant problem. It isn't a problem limited to the FF games though. There are tons of people that refuse to play classics because they don't have the bells and whistles like today's games. That attitude and ignorance does annoy me, but I don't let it hamper my own experience with older games.

[Big D]

[q=Martyr]The Playstation simply mimics the real world. It doesn't make the games realistic. To me, it only makes them more fake. The failure to be real simply points out that the game is not real. Nor is it its own. The game is not a new or special world. It's role is as a game in ours.
[/q]Isn't that what the old games are about, too? Imitating reality as best they could at the time? The degree of mimicry has has improved with newer technology, but the principle is the same - to create a visual representation of a fantasy world to immerse the player in. Compare with the development of literature. As language - and the skill of authors - developed, they got better at turning thoughts, emotions and images into words. The events remain the same, the things the characters do and say - but how the immersive illusion is created has become more complex, more involved or involving. Compare the ancient epics, for instance, to their modern-day equivalents. There's absolutely no denying the greatness of what the old masters wrote, but they seldom have the abilty to make a setting come to life in the way some of today's writers can.

[Takara]

Gods, I hate people who judge a book/movie/game without even reading/seeing/playing it.

"Final Fantasy I sucks because its graphics are 8-Bit!"

or again

"Final Fantasy X-2 sucks because Yuna is a slut!"

:rolleyes2

Personally, I have played both old-school FFs and new-school FFs and I've learned to appreciate most of them (well, except VIII, but this thread is not the place to discuss about why I think it is the worst in the series). They all have their good points and their bad points.

Yeah, sure, the older FFs graphics may look inferior compared to the graphics in, say X-2 and the upcoming XII, but those graphics were considered top-notch in their time. Technology back then was not as developped as it is now, so of course those older games didn't have flashy FMVs and 3D.

Judging a video game only by its graphics only is dumb, in my opinion. What about the characters development? The plot? The music? The playability? Or any other aspects I have not listed but could contribute to how cool or crappy a game can be?

If you don't play more than the first 5 minutes of, say, FFV, just how can you make a good opinion of the game? Or for that matter, how can you say that Spider-Man 2 is a bad movie if you've only seen the theatrical previews, just to use another example? I find it sad when people base their opinion on their first impression.

But again, I can see why most of the newest generation of gamers prefer the newer FFs. As it was written above, most of these kids grew up with their Playstations while the older ones grew up with older consoles like the SNES, the NES, or even the Atari (don't ask me what model it was, I just know we had one in the house when I was still wearing pink dresses and diapers).

As for myself, the first FF I was introduced to was FFIV during the summer of 1994 thanks to my best friend Korine, shortly followed by FFVI a few months later. I played those two games over and over for most of my pre-teen and teenage years, hence why I have a strong opinion of both games. Then, it was FFVII when in came out in 1997, and the others eventually followed. I have beat all of the FFs at least once, saved for FFIII which I just downloaded the ROM for, and those that were released on the PS2 and Crystal Chronicles on the GC (because I'm poor... :riiight: ) Those who were introduced to the series at the same age with, say, FFVIII may be a bit spoiled because they have something we "old geezers" didn't have at their age.

So, yeah, my point for this rant is to never judge a book by its cover, as the old saying goes, and that some people just just get smacked for being so close-minded. At least, not everyone who started with the new-school games think the old-school ones are crap.

Just my two Canuck cents. :twocents:

P.S.

Originally Posted by Storm:

I still think FFIV deserves its own forum. That game is like the equivalent of the "Fellowship of the Ring". It's too bad that DPC and Takara are the only one's that agree.

Yeah! *brings out the pitchforks and the torches* RIOT!

[Martyr]

[q=Martyr]The Playstation simply mimics the real world. It doesn't make the games realistic. To me, it only makes them more fake. The failure to be real simply points out that the game is not real. Nor is it its own. The game is not a new or special world. It's role is as a game in ours.
[/q]Isn't that what the old games are about, too? Imitating reality as best they could at the time? The degree of mimicry has has improved with newer technology, but the principle is the same - to create a visual representation of a fantasy world to immerse the player in. Compare with the development of literature. As language - and the skill of authors - developed, they got better at turning thoughts, emotions and images into words. The events remain the same, the things the characters do and say - but how the immersive illusion is created has become more complex, more involved or involving. Compare the ancient epics, for instance, to their modern-day equivalents. There's absolutely no denying the greatness of what the old masters wrote, but they seldom have the abilty to make a setting come to life in the way some of today's writers can.

You raise a good point, but I'm telling you that the modern graphics on't work right with me.
And the mimicry comment was focused on the graphics race that seems to be going on. Of course the older games were made with as good of graphics as possible, but there's way too much effort in graphics today. It takes me out of the game.
Seriously, there's way too much realism in the games today. Too much emotion, too much backround, too much color... It's not like a game anymore. It doesn't have the same quality as the older games. And I'm not saying that it has less or more quality, I'm saying that the quality is comp[letely unrelated. And I dislike the new kind of quality. It doesn't work on me. Again, I'll read a book if I want depth and full fledged stories. But the games should be games.
And also again, there ain't nothing wrong with appreciating the newer stuff. We're just different people. I'll only get annoyed if the graphics deter you from playing a game like FFVI. I won't if you don't want to playin FF1, because it isn't the same game at all for some people that it is for me.
Not to mention, it seems that you people get immersed in these high tech games easier than you get immersed in the older ones. I don't know how. There's nothing left for you to create in newer games.

[UltimateSpamGrover]

I started FFVII , then my brother got FFVI, then I disliked it for its graphics, but then I started to like it, and moved backward to FFV
and I liked the 2D FF's from there, and Sephiroth1999AD. you are abviously spoiled, if there wasnt a FF1, there wouldnt be a FFX or X-2!

order I played:

FFVII
FFVI
FFV
FFVIII
FFIX
FFX
FFI
FFII
FFXI
FFIV (but do not own a copy)
FF3 is not out yet but i wanna purchase it someday!

EDIT: If you dislike games for their graphics then you are going to absolutely HATE Lufia

[Cz]

Everything that Big D said is absolutely true. The real issue here is about giving games a chance. I played FFX-2 to completion and didn't like it, which is fair enough. People like aeris2001x2 played FFII and didn't like it much either, that's fine too. The point is that they played it before forming their opinions.

The problem comes when players dismiss a game on first impressions, such as 'It's too gimmicky' or 'The graphics are rubbish' applied to X-2 and II respectively. Until people give games a chance, they have no right to criticise it. That's why newer players should try and judge the older games on something besides graphics, as Sephiroth1999AD said.

[Seryn Kai]

I'm probably an FF newbie by the standards of most people here. I've only been playing for 7 years, and I know many have been playing it much longer, but maybe I don't really count. Anyway, I've never cared about graphics. Ever. I'll always give an FF a chance, regardless of the graphical "standard" it's at. I play games for storyline and gameplay, not for something as hollow as a game's asthetic appearence.

I have to take objection to what Big D says about 2D being emotionless. What you're saying is anything 2D or animated can't convey feelings. Some of the most moving scenes I've seen in an RPG have been in 2D games. True, if the people of Kilika had identical shocked expressions then THAT would be emotionless, but you're forgetting that the greatness of 2D is that you can have whatever the artist can draw. It's easy to draw sprites that are large enough to see more expression on the faces if you needed to (Sword of Mana, Breath of Fire III) and also you can have varied ones, or at least 4 varients at the very least, and that's before you take into account the 2D cutscenes seen in games like Shining Soul II or Pokemon Ruby/Sapphire. Theres no difference between 2D and 3D as far as I am concerned.

Why people think that 3D realism is intrinsically better to 2D, I don't know. Why is it then that these graphics nuts arn't in constant awe at their everyday surroundings. Why is it that they are only in constant amazement at the psudo realism seen in video games. That's what I'd like to know. I am personally of the opinion that most newbie gamers, actually, most gamers, are graphically obsessed morons. Just open up any games magazine and see what I mean. Almost all of the reviews either condemn the game over "bad" graphics, say it's the best thing ever because of "good" graphics, or just say the graphics are "avarage" and suggest you play something with more colours in it. Something else I've wanted to ask for a long time. Why is it that 2D games are condemned for "bad" visuals on home consoles and people act as though they're staring straight at the sun when they're forced to play them, but suddenly go into awe when they play the same game on GBA and say "great" the visuals are?

My heart fills with rage whenever I hear the vain comments of shallow people who constantly judge games only by their appearences, and the worst part is, I know that these are going to inevitably be the people who allow flashy colours and the white elephant that is virtual realism to swallow substance whole in the end. Look closely at the games world today and you can see the signs that the end is now in sight. When the time comes when total realism has been attained and graphics take ultimate presedence over storyline and gameplay, the games industry will surely die. If they have become unaccustomed to producing quality, and the gamers buying aren't interested in anthing other than what will be impossible "improvements", what else can happen?

One piece for advice to gamers, but particularly to RPG fans, born from hours, days of my own contemplation:- Enjoy it while it lasts. And whatever you do, hoard up on those games you like the sound of, old or new school, while you can. When the end comes, you'll be glad you did. You'll need a supply of quality games that you can enjoy time and time again when the production of new classics ceases.

[DJZen]

I don't think new schoolers are spoiled by graphics as much as they are completely unused to the differences in gameplay between I-VI and VII-X. I prefer the older FF games because it was more about runnin' up into the dungeon and swords and sorcerying your way through every last mutha you met. Goblin? Meet mr. sword! Bomb? Ice that foo'! Warmech? Time for a little NUKE action! Newer FF games are more cinematic, what with their FMVs and 2 minute long summon sequences. The gameplay somewhat reflects this. A limit break is an incredibly powerful attack with a very impressive animation. Remember Sabin's most powerful attack? Not very impressive to look at, is it? How about the FFIV version of Bahamut? Well, he shows up, makes a quick blast, then leaves. Again, not very impressive. FFI had about 5 different attack animation sets. Flare was a quick explosion that you might miss if you're busy blinking. I think the big difference is that things are just more dramatic now. It's cool and all, but I like my dungeon crawls.

[Seryn Kai]

Personally, I'm not impressed my modern summon sequences. It's just boring sitting through a 2 minute attack. When I played FFX, I swiched the aeon sequences to short. And how is watching Cloud Omnislash an enemy in 2D any more or less impressive than in 3D. I have a sense for what people would call over the top, but this can be just as easily done in 2D as in 3D. As I said, developers are only limited by what the artist can draw. What impresses me isn't Bahamut's massive energy ball, it's how much energy must be gathered in there, how much power Bahamut must have, in order to make something that big which can cause such a big damage figure to appear above the opponent. One of the things I like about Old School is how it plays on your imagination. New School diminishes that somehow. I'm not really "impressed" by any attack or animation sequence on its own. It's their significence to the game scenario which does. I could spend ages quoting examples, but I don't feel I really need to in order to make my point.

[Takara]

That's some good points you both raised there, Seryn Kai and DJzen.

I have not played the later games, but from what you said, it looks more like playing FFX is more like watching a movie than actually playing the game because of all the FMVs.

And I agree 2D leaves more room for the imagination. "Do you think Frionel has blue eyes or green eyes?" "Blue!" "No, they're green!" "You're both wrong, they're polka-dotted, dammit!" See what I mean? You can shape the appearance of characters, landscapes, magic spells, etc in your mind much better if they're not as detailed.

[Ultima Shadow]

look @ warmaech his olny got 1 thousnd hp in teh nes versoin omg what a wuss! penaence has 12 milloin hp and lol even ffVIII's ifreet has more hp then warmaech and ifrett's the 1st boss in ffVIII 4 lulus saek!!! so ff1 has teh wusseist supa bosses eva and teh fnal boss has only 4000 hp even in teh psx vesrion!! tahts sooo laem ffX spolierbraskas fnael aion has 180,000 hp totaly sooo his got 45 tiems more hp then teh fnael boss of ff1!! ur charcters r wusses too i maen u cant do 999,999,999,999 damge unliek in teh newer ffs!!! lol animas oblvion, knghts off teh round, gardn of eden and cat nip + triggre hippy do alot mroe damgea then all ff1 charcters 2getha! xDDDDDD teh best ive neva been able 2 do is 500 dmage wit a lvl 50 mster balck belt. y cant lvl 99 b teh max levl!!?? and i h8 teh most how spiel anmiations r so short they taek 5 or 10 secodns at most lol ff8 is alot bettre bcuz i luv thoes 2 minite long gf summon seqeunces lol!!!! yea ff1 is defintaly teh worst ff eva!!!!!!!!111

I guess you have never seen "Paper Mario" then. The dammage scale whould make you scream! Really, crapy final boss HP etc doesn't matter as long as the HP/Dammage scale is low as well. It's just a matter of HP/Dammage scale.

[black orb]

Seriously speaking, though, do you think many "new-school" FF players have seen too much flashy 3D-graphics and extremely powerful eye candy spells that they can't appreciate what the FFs originally were?

>>>Yeah, but those are just the stupid ones.. I dont care about them very much..
As for me I like both old and new FF games, I`ve played all the FF games besides FFTA and FF11, I dont loathe the new flashy graphics and my fav FF game is FF1.
OMG! Im such a FF whore..

[DMKA]

I agree with what most everyone has said, but I'd like to add that I've noticed that some of the 'old school' players are immeadiatly put off by the newer games. Many of them spend a lot of time complaining about every little aspect of the new games (I was guilty of this until I realized how dumb I was and stopped) rather than just playing and enjoying them for what they are (though I still like more of the other games than the newer).

Praise Yevon...someone FINALLY pointed that out instead of being the one sided "OMG new games suck the old ones were better and the new ones are all about graphics just because they have better graphics because technology has evolved since I was 10 years old!" cliche.

But yes, I've seen some 'new schoolers' who don't really understand how to appreciate the old 8-bit FFs...but then, think about it when it comes to younger gamers (which I believe are the newschoolers guilty of such judgement)...can you blame them? I mean really, sure I agree whole-heartly that they could stand to open their mind a little bit more to the older games, but its just not the same for someone whos always had something far more efficent than that...its kinda like if someone suddenly sat you down and replaced all your CDs with audio cassettes and your compact color tvs with black and white radiation boxes where you had to turn a knob with buttons labeled around it...wouldn't you prefer the stuff you have now over that? Ok maybe thats not quite the same but I can see how someone whos always had instrumentally composed music and realistic SFX have to suddenly listen to midis and beeping would have a difficult time...I actually am guilty of this myself, and its why I haven't completed any FFs below 6 yet, but I'm not downing the games, its just not nearly as easy for me to sit and look at and listen to say, FFIV as it is for me to sit and play FFX. Does that make me think the game is any less of a game? Of course not...its just less efficent because thats the technology they had at the time.

I played FFs in this order: 7,6,Tactics,8,9,1,2,3,4,MQ,5,10,10-2. I don't appreciate the old ones any less, but like I said, its easier for me to play whats nicer on my eyes and my ears. I like good graphics and sound, yes, but i won't base my judgement of a game off such things alone. Hell, other than the fact that it makes things easier on my eyes and ears, graphics mean nothing to me really. I play games for fun, not for how they look.

But anyway, I think these 'oldschoolers' who just prejudge new games after 5 mintes of play (like a ton of people have done with FFX-2) are far worse, because they been around longer, seen more games, and a wider variety, so they should know better than to do that. Plus, they arn't ignorant like the younger players, they're just being prejudice because of...stupidity I guess.

But anyway Final Fantasy VII is still my favorite till this day, even though it looks like crap compared to the newer ones...hell, it looks like crap compared to FFVIII, but I still prefer it. I've been playing it lately, and its still just as fun as it was 7 years ago.