Super duper awesome thread about how cool bush is and all who like him. Kery sucks...

[Optium]

Ideal communism has not yet been seen in a government. An ideal
communism would have freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and every
other freedom we enjoy except for a free market. The idea behind
communism is that everyone will be equal, the problem with this is that in
a nation of millions of people some form of government is needed to collect
and redistribute the wealth, this often creates dictators and then creates
severe inequality in wealth between the government and the citizens.
This is no better than the economies of medieval times of lords and
peasants.

In religious orders, however, each person who joins has freely given up
the right to his wealth. This is what is needed to make communism work.
Communism can never be forced on someone. In religious orders each
member takes a vow of poverty, then the head of the religious order,
often the pope, redistributes the money according to what each person
needs. This is another important aspect, the leader must be righteous,
not greedy. While there have been some sinful popes, most of them
have been righteous and not greedy and this is why communism has
worked there.

Communism has gotten all tied up with government when really that is
just a small part of it needed to make it run smoothly. Communism has
no rules about freedoms, it is only a form of economy designed to
create equality, many of the other connotations have been added to it
over the years by dictorial governments.

.opt

[Shadow Nexus]

And revolution/anarchy is only good wehen there's already a horrible disaster in place. Anarchy is terrible. Countries go bankrupt, people die, places get conquered, lives flip upside down... Anarchy is bad. Generally. Maybe the results are better than what was before, but anarchy is bad because the conditions that caused it were bad.

Yes, Bakunin wrote about his wishes for people to die and countries to go bankrupt. :rolleyes2

And I am not going to comment on the rest of your post, just tell you you have probably never read Marx or Fromm.

Stop me if I'm wrong, but isn't there no religion in Communism?

Yes and no. Marx critizized religion as a dogmatic practice because it caused alienation to a metaphysical entity, or in other words, because he considered it a tool to control the people.

However, there are some religious touches in Marx too. As far as I know, he admired Zen philosophy highly and wrote about it. In a way, communism is similar to the ideal Zen society, as far as I have read in Fromm's book on Marx.

Really, read Fromm. And Marcuse. They have very interesting theories on communism and society.

[Martyr]

Yes, Bakunin wrote about his wishes for people to die and countries to go bankrupt. :rolleyes2

And I am not going to comment on the rest of your post, just tell you you have probably never read Marx or Fromm.

I've read history books. They spill out all kinds of information about countries which have gone through revolution that fairy tales leve out. I understand the wonderful ideas behind communism. I also understand the wonderful ways it's affected the people who adopted it for their government. And, personally, despite the glorious humanitarianism of it all, communism seems to have turned out to be a dud idea.

Anybody can set out and try it again and see if they're up to the task of making it work. Good Luck! It'll be a first.

Personally, now that capitalism exists, I see no point. In America, all you have to do to be succesful is work hard.And you don't need a new country. The only problem is people who don't want to work or are incapable of it. And, frankly, I don't care about them. That's why I'm republican, mostly. Because I don't give a damn about the worthless people. I was poor once, and I utilized the capitalism in our government to alter the situation. So anybody who is poor, whiny, thinks he's being taxed too high, thinks that he should get more benefits from the government for doing nothing.... Screw him. Been there, done that. The US is perfect.
And if terrorists want to end this utopia, then I want to end them. Innocents and all. Flush the freaking Middle East down the toilet. They haven't stopped fighting in centuries. I'd end it.

[Optium]

Tell the single mother who needs to work 3 jobs to support her kid but
she can only work one part time because she can't afford a baby sitter
that she's a worthless person and she should stop being so lazy.

Then again I don't even know why I'm responding to someone who is in
full support of genocide. Get your head checked.

.opt

[TasteyPies]

Tell the single mother who needs to work 3 jobs to support her kid but
she can only work one part time because she can't afford a baby sitter
that she's a worthless person and she should stop being so lazy.

Then again I don't even know why I'm responding to someone who is in
full support of genocide. Get your head checked.

.opt

I don't feel bad for that single mother at all. Any way I can think of it its her that messed up her own life by making poor discisions.

[Optium]

Right because she can see into the future and she knew the condom
would break and that her boyfriend would leave her soon after.

.opt

[Martyr]

Tell the single mother who needs to work 3 jobs to support her kid but she can only work one part time because she can't afford a baby sitter that she's a worthless person and she should stop being so lazy.

.opt

No, I won't tell her that. Why should I? She isn't being lazy.
I will tell her that her situation is a shame and wish her very good luck. Maybe she'll make it out of her rut. It has been done.

Because there is no such thing as luck. Only things that happen from hard work.

We are all responsible for our situations. Maybe there was a problem like a broken condom, or a faithless boyfriend, or some unexpected disaster, but taking the risk of sex is still taking a risk.
Life is full of risks. We take them and we live with them.
We must all be responsible for ourselves. Helping somebody else out should never be an obligation.

I help people ot all the time, but I will never allow somebody to make me solve their problems unwillingly. You should have the same philosophy. After all, who, other than your family, has ever helped you out of a major problem. Probably nobody.
I've always walked alone, and not by choice. Anything I can do, andybody else can do. And if somebody is helpless, then cut them off the chain. I've become hard to the losers. They only repay themselves at my expense.


Not: Maybe genocide is too severe. I was just trying to use an strong example of extreme harshness to get my point across about how seriously I believe in eliminating what I hate.

[Optium]

There's a flaw in your logic.

"The only problem is people who don't want to work or are incapable of it. And, frankly, I don't care about them. That's why I'm republican, mostly. Because I don't give a damn about the worthless people."

But now someone who is incapable of working enough to support herself
and her child is no longer a worthless person in your opinion. You've
contradicted yourself.

As for no such thing as luck, you may be right, but there is such a thing
as randomness. Something you went through will not be exactly the same
for someone else, so saying that if you can do it so can anyone else is
bull. Maybe you were lucky, which is to say, random events happened
which were beneficial to you. While someone else may be unlucky, which
is to say that random events have happened which were detrimental to
them.

Helping someone else out should ALWAYS be our obligation. Making the
world a better place isn't a responsibility for the wealthy, it's a
responsibility for all people. I'm not a Jesus freak but I believe that was
the very best of his teachings. In the words of Gandhi:
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world."

.opt

[TasteyPies]

Right because she can see into the future and she knew the condom
would break and that her boyfriend would leave her soon after.

.opt

Here's an idea, she could have waited until she got married.

[Martyr]

I never said she wasn't worthless. I said that I wouldn't call her worthless. Nobody needs to hear that kind of talk.

However, she was not an example of laziness, but, rather, an example of somebody struggling to survive. So she isn't really so worthless as much as she is in temporary financial duress.

But either way, I never said that I would do my particular best to support her. I'd wish her luck because any amount of worthless material or problematic content within our society is bad. She probably could use assistance and maybe, if I was the one to give it to her, I would, but she doesn't need it. People who recently were mugged and stabbed are the people who need assistance. They have no hope because a body cannot repair from that kind of damage without clinical treatment. This woman has time on her side. Especially in a democratic government.

But maybe your theory about being obligated to help these people is correct. That sounds right, and I would like to live my life accordingly. It's hard for me to accept that though, because I never see anybody helping anybody else. I find that most talk from democrats and Bible toters is completely hypocritical. Nobody helps anybody else, and, if you do help somebody, you'll most likely get screwed by it.
I wasn't born a pessimist, you know.
But, ultimately, communism probably won't help that woman either. Because her kid will grow and become capable and less dependant. By the time that he is able to produce, the woman will be beyond whatever communism would be able to offer her. (Not to mention that she would be a good example of the strain on communism which causes such ideas to fail)

Capitalism reigns supreme with me. And democracy has shown itself to be the most efficient advocate of capitalism. And Republicans have shown to be the most capitalistic of the two parties. So that's where I am right now.

[Turk]

Communism is gay, as is American capitalism.

[Martyr]

Communism is gay, as is American capitalism.

And what do you propose, oh he of governmental heterosexuality.

Chinese capitalism? Where "The Poorest nation in the World" are terms that come to mind.

(Or are you saying that both governments are quite, uh, happy and pleasant.)

[The Captain]

Years upon years of corrupt politics, self-serving politicians, and all sorts of cultural strife has starved us of what it means to be a decent human being and have led to more than a few people becoming completely cynical and turned off to helping others.

Yet, we cannot allow that to stop us from rising above the chaos, above all the animosity that has so filled our world and left us numb to one another. It's the consumer culture, it's the war culture, it's the TV culture, the pill-popping culture, everything that forces us to think only of ourselves and just ignore all else. Looking out for number one can only get you so far before you MUST begin to spread out and reach out. Only through togetherness and a willing desire to work with one another are we ever going to make true progress. Putting our own ambitions always ahead of everything else will only result in more of the same: a few rich folk and the vast majority of this world under the poverty line.

Surely, most who have gotten to that elite status worked hard for their position, but capitialism is more about luck than anything else. It's a game of chance, we all have the chance to succeed, but the deck is almost always stacked against us. Those who have more at their disposal, such as Old Money families, or ties somewhere within the already established can tip the scales more in their favor, but the vast majority of this world is left hanging in the breeze.

Some say Communism is the answer, but that's been proven false. Leaving the door too wide open for dictatorial rule is probably Communism's greatest flaw as it puts too much on the hopes that personal gain can be checked forever. That being said, Capitalism is not a perfect system by any means. It's been said, Capitalism is the worst thing out there, beside everything else and I agree with that. Yet, does that mean we should just be happy to be good enough for now and not attempt to find some means to improve life even more?

Where are the dreamers, the true thinkers of this day and age? Can we ask them to find us an answer? Somewhere perhaps someone has an idea that can change the world, and we must be ready to embrace it. To only believe what we have is perfect is a very scary belief, but to always be ready to move forward, now that is closer to any ideal concept of perfection. In order to find this new idea, we MUST work together and not turn our backs to those who many deem less fortunate or wasted life. We may be surprised by what we find among the forgotten, the people who have been stepped on and thrown to the wolves.

Those of us who still can dream, still can dare to challenge what is in place are the ones who may one day move us forward even more. The people in power now, be they Democratic or Republican have all but forgotten what it means to dream and have become bogged down in bickering for power, to keep what they have or take it away from someone else. What has become of this democracy, that once seemed so filled with promise? Do we dare to dream again?

I certainly hope we do, for I still think we can and must at all costs move forward, not be in a continual state of stagnation. I believe in every person I've ever met, that they all will do something great, and in every case, I've been proven right. Even if you fail at first, you must get up and try again. Don't let yourself be silenced or told you'll never amount to anything. Don't be swayed by the masses who claim not to have any answers, but rather look within yourselves and find them. If we can work together, as citizens and people of this Earth, not just as Republicans, Democrats, Americans, English, etc, but as people, then we shall see that it's not all black or white, right or wrong all the time, but sometimes can be beautiful shades of other colors, all of which can paint a vibrant picture for the future.

Keep dreaming my friends, keep moving forward and believing in yourself and one another.

Take care all.

[Shadow Nexus]

I've read history books. They spill out all kinds of information about countries which have gone through revolution that fairy tales leve out.

Fun. I have read those too. That dosen't mean you understand the idea behind communism, or else you would not be inventing it like you are.

In America, all you have to do to be succesful is work hard.

By destroying the other. Yay.

The US is perfect

Yes, you just need to work hard through your life, get money, be the CEO of some multinational that has reached through the top thanks to social and ecological dumping (in other countries or in the US) and make the goverment act according to your interests by investing in their interests. And when people hate you, just look down at them and say they could all be like you, they just have to forget any ethical values. Heh...like Scroodge.

And if terrorists want to end this utopia, then I want to end them. Innocents and all. Flush the freaking Middle East down the toilet. They haven't stopped fighting in centuries. I'd end it.

I was just trying to use an strong example of extreme harshness to get my point across about how seriously I believe in eliminating what I hate.

Yeah, they may bring great utopia down. Basically you are claiming that anything that oposes your shall-we-call-them-moral-values or may threaten your position has to go off. Yes, you are the perfect capitalist.

We are all responsible for our situations.

So you believe we are completly free and completly in control over our lifes?

Here's an idea, she could have waited until she got married.

Why do you believe everyone wishes to get married?

Some say Communism is the answer, but that's been proven false. Leaving the door too wide open for dictatorial rule is probably Communism's greatest flaw as it puts too much on the hopes that personal gain can be checked forever.

No, the biggest error in Communism it's that it is often not done by marxists. The other problem is that it is oftenly imposed through revolution, and this is violence, and here rises a question: Can a system created through violence stand without repressive forces? I can't anwser that. Is violence necessary to bring down a system? As far as history goes, yes, it is. Is there another way to change the system from the root?

Where are the dreamers, the true thinkers of this day and age? Can we ask them to find us an answer? Somewhere perhaps someone has an idea that can change the world, and we must be ready to embrace it. To only believe what we have is perfect is a very scary belief, but to always be ready to move forward, now that is closer to any ideal concept of perfection. In order to find this new idea, we MUST work together and not turn our backs to those who many deem less fortunate or wasted life. We may be surprised by what we find among the forgotten, the people who have been stepped on and thrown to the wolves.

Those of us who still can dream, still can dare to challenge what is in place are the ones who may one day move us forward even more. The people in power now, be they Democratic or Republican have all but forgotten what it means to dream and have become bogged down in bickering for power, to keep what they have or take it away from someone else. What has become of this democracy, that once seemed so filled with promise? Do we dare to dream again?

I certainly hope we do, for I still think we can and must at all costs move forward, not be in a continual state of stagnation. I believe in every person I've ever met, that they all will do something great, and in every case, I've been proven right. Even if you fail at first, you must get up and try again. Don't let yourself be silenced or told you'll never amount to anything. Don't be swayed by the masses who claim not to have any answers, but rather look within yourselves and find them. If we can work together, as citizens and people of this Earth, not just as Republicans, Democrats, Americans, English, etc, but as people, then we shall see that it's not all black or white, right or wrong all the time, but sometimes can be beautiful shades of other colors, all of which can paint a vibrant picture for the future.

Keep dreaming my friends, keep moving forward and believing in yourself and one another.

I'm sorry man, stop it with the rebellions history has come over, can't you see anarchy is installed in the market? What if you think it is unfair for poetry to die? The sublime is to give a taste to the taste of the majority. Stop it with speeches on logos and nothingness, the wise thing is the latest reality show, it dosen't matter if the future is a tunnel with a dead end, we brought down the wall with the spark of life! Stop going nuts on the end of utopia, go a little neo-barroque and enjoy all the fun!


Anyway, seriously, I cannot say I do not like your post, because you do speak very beautiful words, in the style of "Imagine".

However, I believe that for now, and in the times to come, hopes for a new future are quite scarce. So yeah, maybe we could just sit down, light up a cigarrette and watch everything crumble from some crystal skycraper with a nice view, as in some morbid reality show.

Then again, maybe we can all try, in some last desperate attempt, to do something that may at least make this crumbling less painful. Or maybe we can stop it. Quoting one of my favourite poets, Jaime Gil de Biedma, "it is the time to think that maybe the fact of being alive demands something, maybe acts of heores...or maybe just some small common thing, with a crust of terrestial material we can touch with our fingers, with a little bit of faith". Then again, we are down, and the ones up are the ones interested in this trout to be conserved are up.

As my friend Aute says, living is much more than a right, it is the obligation of obeying the order of thinking what and who is freedom, what is what we must do and expect.

Today society contructs the idea of living together as aparence. Well, I propose the challenge of destroying all of history, strategies, prophecies and memories.

And again, taking some verses from Aute (And translating):

But please allow me,
in front of this science and fictions
of emptiness,
markets and flags,
cosmetics and flashes,
to never renounce
to my uncurable nonsense
of kisses and wild dreams

Wow, long and pedantic post.

[The Captain]

I sense a weary fatigue of realism about you SN, and you have your reasons no doubt. Yet, I have mine as well to be an idealist, to work toward a brighter future and continue to move forward and not be bogged down in the crumbling society around us. Rather, it inspires me more to press onward and not be stopped or overwhelmed.

My friend, I have seen with my own eyes the power of progress, of positive belief and of steady optimism. Perhaps not on the large-scale sense that we'd hope for where masses of people begin to care for one another, and begin to melt away the cynicism that has so engulfed all of us. It's in the beating hearts of all who fight for survival against genocide in Africa, in the people who even today work endlessly to cure AIDS, cancer and all other illnesses that have disappeared from under society's microscope, and above all else in the youth, the young of this world. We as the next generation of leaders have the power and ability to really change everything if we want to and do not allow ourselves to be turned into our forebearers. If we continue down the slippery slope of hatred, blind prejudice and just general intolerance, we'll only quicken our demise as a culture. However, if we really take the time to do things right, to find the right path and walk it, then the sky truly is the limits.

That being said, the only way to get to this place is for all of us to get there together. Both idealists, however foolish we may seem, like myself, and others who may have some doubt or think perhaps more rationally such as yourself SN. Yet, together perhaps we can find the way, step by weary beautiful step.

Take care all.