Silent Hill 2 Discussion (MAJOR spoilers guarunteed)

[Giga Guess]

What's your take on this? As in plot, characters....whatnot?

To get things rolling, I read something basically calling James a selfish, cruel man for killing Mary. I disagree, because if he's as bad as this guy said, why would he have even bothered? And it says, to bolster this fact, that Maria was an "ideal" creation....pretty, slutty, a stripper...my rebuttal is that he spurns Maria at pretty much every turn...so he, in my mind, truly did/does love Mary. Any other opinions?

[Lindy]

Yes he loved Mary, he loved her enough to kill her and end her suffering. But then, he did kill her for selfish reasons, because he was so sick and disgusted by what she'd become he had to end her life.

If he'd really, truly loved Mary and killed her for totally unselfish reasons, then the dark side of Silent Hill would never have called him. It's because his soul is dark and tarnished that he's pulled into the evil world, as a pose to Laura who's soul is clean and so she sees no evil monsters, just a spooky, misty old town.

James is not evil, but he is selfish in some ways, and the way that dark Silent Hill drew him in is proof of the darkness in his soul.

He both did and didn't spurn Maria though, think about the scene where she's in the cell, and James' reaction to her, and then what happens after you find her dead in there afterwards.

James is not evil, and he did love Mary, but he's no saint either.

[Giga Guess]

Oh, agreed. I won't say that he was a complete saint in this. And he did create Maria, I'll admit, and did get a little cuddly at points. But it always seems to end with "You're not Mary!"

Now what about Laura? *IS* she real? Or is she a facet of Mary as this guy seems to think? Personally, I disagree with him. It's just a little too awkward. And I think the "Mary's been dead for three years" thing is a bit more metaphorical at that point. She was afflicted with a life threatening illness, ergo, she was as good as "dead." Actually, I'll post a link to this guy's plot analysis in a sec...

HERE!

[kikimm]

First off, I love that game. It's disturbing; maybe even more so than the first game---in my opinion, at least.

On the whole "Mary" thing....I think it depends on which ending you get, to see if he really did love her. I haven't gotten all the endings, but in In Water (SPOILER)I think he did love her; but I see it as more of an obsessive, unhealthy kind of love. And in the Maria one, (SPOILER) It doesn't seem like he loved her at all. He comes off quite hateful. Plus, he leaves with Maria, choosing her

Laura. Hrmm. Who knows? I'd like to think she was dead myself, but I can't think of anything at the moment to prove this. She could be "innocent", I guess, but some of the things she says, and the events...don't make sense.

I've read that analysis before. Personally, I don't think he's right. He's looking way too much nito the sex thing, if I remember correctly. There's another plot analysis that's much better, and seems more accurate. But with Silent Hill, it's kind of hard to know.

[Giga Guess]

Yeah, like with the Nurses....yeah they're wearing skimpy outfits...but if it was all about the sex...why not a dirty maid, or whatever....the nurses are the ones that failed to help Mary...or in effect, took her from him. Hence why they're enemies, IMO.

But I think Laura is as she said she was. A friend of Mary's. She was drawn to Silent Hill to make James face the ugly truth of what he did. I mean, in it's essence, Silent Hill is a sort of Purgatory...divided between an absolute light, and an absolute darkness. Is it not concievable that the darkness isn't the only part that attracts people?

[Lindy]

Oh Laura's real alright, wasn't it stated in the game that she was in the hospital at the same time as Mary? Maybe she came back to Silent Hill, to reminisce or something, but found nothing except for James and Eddie.

The thing you have to remember is this, it's that the Silent Hill that James, and Eddie and so on enter is totally different from the REAL Silent Hill, they're in another dimension totally. Light Silent Hill is not the REAL Silent Hill, Samael in SH1 sorted that out.

For all we know, Laura could be walking around a Silent Hill that's totally normal and populated by people, so it's not so weird that she's involved in what happens.

Notice she never appears in Dark Silent Hill?

[Giga Guess]

Oh, absolutely.

One has to ask, though....is Dark Silent Hill the same for everyone...? I mean when the DoorMan was raping Angela...she was calling it Daddy...so either she has some screwed up family, or....(And seeing as her father is *DEAD*...) Here's my thoughts.

There's James' Silent Hill, filled with demons and whatnot.
Eddie's Silent Hill, which is full of people for him to kill.
And then there's Angela's Silent Hill...this is a toughie...but I'm thinking it's a place where she's all alone. Save for James (cuz he's real...) and the DoorMan (Chance to atone? Reliving the incident? This is a little blurry...)
And of course there's Laura's Silent Hill, which seems to be as close to normal as possible.

[Shoeberto]

Actually, if you remember at the end of the game, in the hotel, she walks up the stairs when they're on fire, and says to James something about how he can see the flames, and how they were always on fire for her.

[Giga Guess]

Oh there are, actually, a lot of things that bolster my theory. I mean look at the fact that James saw NO people, save real people, and his Maria. Yet Eddie found no shortage of people to kill.

[Zifnab]

But what about the dead guy in the chair that James also saw? Would he have been a real person, also drawn into Silent Hill, yet met an end before James could know him?

[Giga Guess]

That could be true. Or it could've also been one of Eddie's "victims" too...

[Zell's Fists of Fury]

I think that guy is supposed to be another imagry conjured up by James' subcontious, like Mary's dress in the other room. If you look close, you can see that the dead guy is wearing the exact same clothes as James.

[Giga Guess]

REALLY?! I'm gonna have to play again and see....now that I've been spoiled by the steel pipe and all...

I also found Angela's final staircase to be somewhat symbolic....kind of an indecision of heaven or hell...I mean the stairs, IMO represent heaven-bound, whereas the flames, hell (Even James mentions this symbolism: "It's hot as hell in here...")

I think either:
1.) She's a sinner thinks she's done right (Unlikely...) or...
2.) A righteous person thinking she's done wrong.

I think she was more drawn to Silent Hill because of her own guilt rather than her sin. I mean, it's pretty safe to say that even if she *DID* kill her Dad (remember, it never implicitly says so) it was most likely in self-defence. But then again, Samael prolly isn't choosy on the souls he recieves, either, so....

[Lindy]

Well, if you think about the whole staircase scene, Angela ascends the stairs, she's leaving her personal hell and finally escaping, but James has to return through the door from whence he came, returning to his hell. He can't escape like she can.

I think that part of James' hell means that he can partially see what the others do, he at least sees what is his version of another persons, like in the doorman-angela scene, to Angela the doorman appears to be her father, but to James it's just another monster like the demon's of his subconcious.

To each, their own hell.

James sees them as horrific monsters, because he abhors ugliness, just in the reason he killed Mary because he was disgusted by how ugly she had become, so all that faced him was ugliness.

Eddie was bitter, hateful and wanted to kill people, so people is what he saw.

And Angela, well she was all alone, she saw nothing save James and "her father".

As each follow up their hell, and as James destroyed more than was ugly and Eddie killed more "people", they became more and more pulled in by Silent Hill.

And it's fairly obvious that Angela THINKS she's a bad person, as a lot of rape and child abuse victims think that they're in the wrong when they're not.

But, I think, the most interesting theory is that Silent Hill provides choices, that there are two deitys fighting for control, Samael for evil and Metatron for good. That the switch between light and dark Silent Hill is when one of these deity's gain control.

Sinners are called to Silent Hill and given a choice, between life and death, being saved or total damnation, this is shown by the different endings. Maria/Rebirth being where James falls for Samael and is damned, where he falls for the false Mary and is force to relive his crime and Rebirth where he decides to follow Samael and is again damned. In Water/Leave is where James is forgiven and allowed to move on by Metatron, through death In Water and through a new life with Laura in Leave.

Personally, I'm a little dubious about that one, since Metatron was only hinted at in SH1, and there is little evidence of Samael in SH2, bar the mark of Samael on the floor in the hotel.

Also, random note for SH4 players, (SPOILER)You'll remember the reference to Walter Sullivan in the newspaper article in the trash, and from playing SH4 you'll know about his links to Dahlia and the Wish House, but look in his "lair" in SH4, and you'll see the Great Knife in the background. The Great Knife being Pyramid Head's weapon, perhaps Walter was involved in SH2 in some way, as the Holy Assumption he performed and the 21 sacraments is too related to the summoning of Samael.

Phew, too much.

[Giga Guess]

Wow...well put.

(SPOILER)And yeah, SH2 is fairly strongly tied into SH4....Frank Sunderland is the building Super...Walter Sullivan is the main enemy. And yeah, Wish House is made mention of in SH3, as is Joseph Schreiber, no?