The Iraqi Perspective

[The Captain]

Two good friends of mine, who are indeed stationed in Iraq told me a very chilling story over the phone that all Americans are referred to as "Jews" by the Iraqi media and people, which if they understand it correctly, means that they are considered people of no value or that have nothing to say or have no place in Iraq. It's sad that many of the people in Iraq and the USA still have no idea why we're over there. Frankly, I really don't have a clue either. If we're liberating Iraq, one would figure we'd have planned it out better.

Also of note, if you're going using Dick Cheney as your talking head to support Iraq-Al Qaeda links, you may want to get more solid information as even he has said in various press conferences that Iraq might not have as strong a link as it was believed to have.

Now granted, Iraq right now is a hive for Al Qaeda, but pre-American invasion, there has been little to no evidence, no matter the spin, supporting this theory.

Take care all.

[theundeadhero]

" Success in Iraq means we will have a victory at the heart of the base...of the terrorists who had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9/11."

That means the Vice Pres. said victory in Iraq will hurt the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11. Those terrorists would be the Taliban. Why would it hurt them if they weren't linked?
The Iraqi's ( three of them) are here to teach us their language and about their culture. I don't know how long they've been here. You have to understand that I can't tell you much about my military service because I'm so close to deploying again.

The first link was fixed by the time you posted.

The Iraqi calling Americans Jews are the ones we're fighting against.

[fire_of_avalon]

I don't understand how you can say you didn't do this for "us", that you did this for "them", when you did it cause you were ordered to do it. I'm not being accusatory, I'm just confused.

I'm glad Saddam has been stopped from killing people, and stealing money from his people. (I read in the 1999 World Almanac that Iraq's GNP was something around $51 Billion, Saddam was worth about a sixth of that I think). But now you have to stop the people that are left from killing each other.

Like I said before, I respect the soldier that does his/her duty. And I respect the good deeds they do regardless of orders. But I don't have to agree with your orders, and I don't have to respect them just because some good stuff happened as a result of them. That's like saying "I'm a drug trafficker, and I was speeding down the freeway running from cops, and I hit this pedestrian with my car, and the pedestrian was a child molester." Yes, it's good that there's one less child molester left in the world, but that doesn't justify my actions, now does it?

[The Captain]

"That means the Vice Pres. said victory in Iraq will hurt the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11. Those terrorists would be the Taliban. Why would it hurt them if they weren't linked?"

Because, perhaps, they weren't linked.

Both sides of this argument, Liberal and Conservative alike need to take a step back for a moment and put aside differences and just look at the facts. I think, what we're arguing about is politics and not facts, which is depressing to me frankly, even though I'm just as guilty.

Saddam had no love for the Taliban because they represented a threat to his power over Iraq, so I find it darn near impossible to believe they teamed up for 9/11. You know who ARE linked with the Taliban though, Saudi Arabia. Why didn't we invade there? Or Iran, or any place that has CLEAR, crystal clear links to the Taliban?

Now from what I understand, as a soldier, you can't go against the president, but at the same time, you are still allowed to believe what you believe and not what the army tells you to believe. If you can confidently say that you agree with the Vice President, then I'll leave it at that. However, if you're just agreeing because you HAVE to agree, perhaps a change is needed.

Take care all.

[theundeadhero]

Everything I've written is not what I'm told to believe. I'm not told to believe anything, they leave that up to us as individuals. Your right though about this argument getting out of hand and I'm stepping down to forget about it. I was tired of it a long time ago.

[TheAbominatrix]

" Success in Iraq means we will have a victory at the heart of the base...of the terrorists who had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9/11."

That means the Vice Pres. said victory in Iraq will hurt the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11. Those terrorists would be the Taliban. Why would it hurt them if they weren't linked?
The Iraqi's ( three of them) are here to teach us their language and about their culture. I don't know how long they've been here. You have to understand that I can't tell you much about my military service because I'm so close to deploying again.

The first link was fixed by the time you posted.

The Iraqi calling Americans Jews are the ones we're fighting against.

1. That doesnt mean that Hussein had ties. That meant that terrorists could possibly be in Iraq. And do you know the difference between the Taliban and Al Queda?.
2. You're full of it. You can tell me when you're stationed, for one. You can also tell me your division. Your division doesnt change when you're deployed. What's your MOS? Where was your basic? How bout your AIT? Can you tell me any of that.
3. No it wasnt.

[theundeadhero]

2. You're full of it. You can tell me when you're stationed, for one. You can also tell me your division. Your division doesnt change when you're deployed. What's your MOS? Where was your basic? How bout your AIT? Can you tell me any of that.

Where I'm stationed at tells you what division I'm in. Division has EVERYTHING to do with when your deployed. 21E20 Ft. Leonard Wood, Ft. Leonard Wood

As for the rest I've dropped the subject.

[TheAbominatrix]

No, your MOS has to do with what Division your in. You're at Ft. Leonardwood, eh? What about the rest? What's your MOS?

[theundeadhero]

Not at Ft. Leonard Wood, thats where basic and AIT was. 21E's are stationed at every Army istallation so that doesn't help you there.

[Shlup]

Will both of you shut up please?

[Big D]

I think we can reach several firm conclusions from this thread:

*Different Iraqis have different opinions about the invasion and deposing of Hussein

*Different American civilians have different opinions about the war

*Different US servicemen have different opinions about their reasons for fighting in the war

*Different non-US civilians and military also have their own opinions about it all

*Sometimes, these opinions conflict with one another

I guess that just about sums it up. Facts are easy enought to establish; it's interpretations and implications of those facts that set most people apart.

[theundeadhero]

Thank you, we both agree on that.

[nik0tine]

but what war isn't? They're all based on greed or revenge on some level.

And that is why war should never be happening.

I like that "justification" and "corruption" are more important than the liberation of a country,

I can't recall a single time in U.S. history that we did not put a dictator in power after ousting a regime. Yes, we "liberated" them from a dictator. But I am one hundred percent sure that we will be putting another dictator in his place. We have NEVER done otherwise, and we are not going to now.

Simply, the "civillians" who died were supporting the Wassabi's.

So, if the civilians of Dresden supported the Nazi party, then they also deserved what they got?

Everyone's seen that picture, and it's old news that Hussein refused to condemn the attacks. But then, there's been plenty of promotion and bragging by Western sources, using images of destruction in Iraq as "trophies", of sorts. As he took delight from the destruction of American buildings, so too did Westerners make light of death and bombings in Iraq.

Alot like the "Nuke Iraq" shirt's I have seen worn around here. Disgusting, if you ask me.

Simple, people who believe that killing people will get them into heaven are capable of ignoring the effects of launching nuclear weapons (Mutually Assured Destruction) and therefore are a threat to world security.

That's a laughable concept. World leaders don't believe that, even if they are muslim. When was the last time you saw a terrorist leader do a suicide bombing? Never, because they don't want to die. They simply use other people to carry out their deeds.

No nuclear weapons perhaps, but biological or chemical weapons.

A weapon of mass destruction includes biological and chemical weapons. When we announced that there were no WMD's we meant no nuclear, biological, or chemicals weapons. Period.

Something like that and don't flame me for this, it's just what I see and as far as I can tell, the US isn't going to get anything out of the deal except improved safety.

Read an essay called "rebuilding america's defenses" (written by many conservatives, such as Paul wolfowitz, Dick Cheney, and Donald rumsfeld just to name a few) then you will understand what America has to gain from Iraq.

Nope, I mean I'm spending time with Iraqi citizens who live in Iraq but are in America right now.

Well, it seems like getting a biased account from these guys. Go to Iraq, talk to Iraqi's IN IRAQ, and THEN tell us about how grateful they are.

That means the Vice Pres. said victory in Iraq will hurt the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11. Those terrorists would be the Taliban. Why would it hurt them if they weren't linked?

Just because the vice president says something doesn't mean it's the truth.

The Iraqi's ( three of them) are here to teach us their language and about their culture. I don't know how long they've been here. You have to understand that I can't tell you much about my military service because I'm so close to deploying again.

Are these Iraqi's employed, or volunteering for the U.S. army?

Anyway, I guess my biggest point that I made here was that the U.S. has never put anyone in power who was NOT a dictator. Yes, we removed a horrible dictator from power. Does anybody realize that the person who we gave power to over Iraq worked for the CIA? Does anybody realize that this same man blew up a bus full of children? I am one hundred percent sure that Iraq will be placed in the hands of another ruthless, iron fisted dictator when this is all said and done. It is what has happened every time in the past, and it is what is going to happen now. In my opinion, this kind of blows the "liberating the people" argumen clean out of the water.

[Big D]

I guess its just depressing to be thought of as evil because of something other people in your country did that "could've been done better." I'd rather just not think poorly of anyone, but grr... nevermind.

I can guarantee that I would never believe you, or any other American, to be "evil" because of this. However, I do believe the war, as it has turned out, to be a horrible act. It "could've been done better"; and if it had been, thousands of innocents would be alive today who are not. It wasn't "done better" because of a lack of foresight, a lack of planning, and basically because of undue haste. Innocent people died because someone else chose not to spend a bit of extra time and extra money beforehand, and that's something I can't readily abide.

nik0tine raises some interesting points, too.

I'd like to think that, with the world's help, Iraq can become a genuine democracy, or at the very least a country that determines its own future system of government. The UN interim administration in East Timor worked there; the same happened in many former USSR states. They're handling things in Afghanistan right now. However, the US acting alone doesn't really stand much chance of creating a truly independent, democratic nation. To avoid bias as much as possible, input from the rest of the world is crucial.