Spoilers about Zanarkand ubication

[Wilder]

Well, I learned something this days, Unless something about this story plot is especifically written in the game , Is´not true or false, just a Theory (and thanks to square we´ll never know),there will be always people that agree and disagree, all right.

1.- There are some relations about the Buildings you can see at the top of Sin Body , You can see the same kind in the Ruins of zanarkand (at the intro) , and the same buildings behind Jecht at the last fight.

2.- Repeat, Nobody Knows what is inside that huge water ball, Was jecht ?, was Sin ?, Was another dream ? was the Sin escence but no body ?, nobody knows , so , Sin Body´s atacking his own body is not an argument.And that thing Was not only Atackin Zanarkand , was getting tidus out.

3.- For those who say that DZ don´t fit into Sin Little stomach , go and see the last FMV that you can see in the theather at luca (it´s call getting trough) , And you´ll see the scene in wich Sin open some kind of portal and swallow the ship, what you see when you get in is actually an inmense .. I mean HUUUUUGE Place , you don´t see an beast inside, you dont see the flesh and bones, You see an entire universe create inside of sin , And you cannot say "well , sin transport them to anotherworld " , nu doubt, that is inside sin, Sin is a big Universe that fly .

4.- Sir bahamut, You say that Jecht Can create his own zanarkand just by thinking about it inside of sin , just like other people do in the farplane. Well, If you remenber, Tidus tried to think about Jecht and he didn´t appear because he wasn´t dead, If people that are not dead don´t appear , that also means that jecht can´t create another DZ with his memories , because at the moment of the fight DZ still exist Right ?, And please don't say "mysterious things can happen", because you might as well say "a wizard dit it" then, Jecht Isn´t a faith to summon a new DZ, and that´s the City we are talking about no other thing, So, There´s no other explanation to found DZ in there.

5.- About the DZ that appears inside of Sin while you´re fighting Jecht, Yeah, You can´t see anybody there because there were no close up to the city , So, here is another thing that can´t be right or wrong , There´s is the city but nobody can´t say "there´s people , there´s no people", but that´s without any doubt Zanarkand..

6.- About Auron Riding Sin, that sounds pretty ambiguous, Imagine Auron in the back of sin saying "hey you, take me to DZ", And you´ll tell "Jecht take him to there" ... and I will say another thing and blablabla... a a bunch of things that are not explained in the game , god, I would like to find something about that Auron Trip. But the Tidus transport scene don´t looks like they get in the back of that huge ball of water and get a ride , for me more like tidus being launched outside of the body, there´s no enough information in the game that explains the whole process so, we can´t use that words from sauron anymore unless we find a clear and direct relation.

7.- And I Want you to Answer why nobody have never get out from DZ?, I read about Yevon reset process (officially published in the ultimania guide ), and it says textually - In
the Ultimania Guides, it is mentioned that Yu Yevon "resets" individual DZ
inhabitants who start to question their one-city world - . Ok, DZ Is a One city World ah ?, very interesting , why they have all the technology but they can´t leave the place, and I know you´re going to say "yevon controls them mentally so they don´t think about geting out"... But I want to know about that "ONE CITY WORLD " official phrase.

Keep posting everithing that can agree or disagree this theory, and join the discussion.

[Sir Bahamut]

1.- There are some relations about the Buildings you can see at the top of Sin Body , You can see the same kind in the Ruins of zanarkand (at the intro) , and the same buildings behind Jecht at the last fight.

Perhaps they got there from when he attacked Zanarkand in the intro then.

2.- Repeat, Nobody Knows what is inside that huge water ball, Was jecht ?, was Sin ?, Was another dream ? was the Sin escence but no body ?, nobody knows , so , Sin Body´s atacking his own body is not an argument.And that thing Was not only Atackin Zanarkand , was getting tidus out.

Oh, it was definitely Sin inside there.

Firstly, let's agree the opening wasn't a dream or anything, it was reality. It was something that actually happened in DZ. If not, how come Tidus actually does get out? No, it was not a dream, it was reality.

Secondly, it must have been Sin, it doesn't make sense if it was anyone else. I mean, for one, we see him. We clearly see the same huge monster we see in the rest of the game. I mean, solely on the premise that there are no other ridiculously huge Sin-like monsters who can float around in bubbles in DZ besides Sin, it has to be Sin.
Also, Auron even says: "We called it Sin".

So let's see, we have a REALLY huge monster(not just the essence, unless you can find something in the game that implies that) that looks like Sin, in a bubble which we only otherwise see Sin doing, in a place where it is stated only Sin could find/be, and it is implied to have been nicknamed Sin. On top of that, we are told later in the game that Jecht(Sin) attacked DZ to get Tidus out, so Tidus could have a real life.

So really, it's perfectly obvious that it must have been none other than Sin who attacked DZ in the intro.

Of course, let's assume for a moment it wasn't Sin. That would imply Square throwed in Sins identical twin just for the very opening, just to confuse us, and not give us any hint that it wasn't the "real" Sin.
No, that wouldn't make any sense at all. Of course, you can try and convince me otherwise.

The simplest solution is always the best, so the opening was real, and it was Sin who attacked. Nothing at all implies it is anything but the real Sin.

3.- For those who say that DZ don´t fit into Sin Little stomach , go and see the last FMV that you can see in the theather at luca (it´s call getting trough) , And you´ll see the scene in wich Sin open some kind of portal and swallow the ship, what you see when you get in is actually an inmense .. I mean HUUUUUGE Place , you don´t see an beast inside, you dont see the flesh and bones, You see an entire universe create inside of sin , And you cannot say "well , sin transport them to anotherworld " , nu doubt, that is inside sin, Sin is a big Universe that fly .

Oh, Sin is big all right. And you don't see flesh and bones because he's made up of pyreflies.
But Zanarkand is HUGE. I mean, Sin IS big, but he's not a flying universe for sure.

4.- Sir bahamut, You say that Jecht Can create his own zanarkand just by thinking about it inside of sin , just like other people do in the farplane. Well, If you remenber, Tidus tried to think about Jecht and he didn´t appear because he wasn´t dead, If people that are not dead don´t appear , that also means that jecht can´t create another DZ with his memories , because at the moment of the fight DZ still exist Right ?, And please don't say "mysterious things can happen", because you might as well say "a wizard dit it" then, Jecht Isn´t a faith to summon a new DZ, and that´s the City we are talking about no other thing, So, There´s no other explanation to found DZ in there.

"The little fellows are responsible for a few fantastic phenomena."
"Visions of the past, spheres, fiends--these are all the pyreflies' doing."

That's what Maechen says. The pyreflies in the farplane are all from dead people, so it's natural that those pyreflies will form shapes of dead people, when reacting to peoples memories of them.

Sin is different. Just look at the description of pyreflies. They react to thoughts, memories, emotion and shape themselves after that.
You don't have to be dead for the pyreflies to form you(or else you'd never be able to summon Aeons, or Sin for that matter wouldn't exist).

So inside Sin, the pyreflies react to Jechts thoughts, memories and emotions, and make out a fading Zanarkand.
So it's perfectly logical for us to see a fading Zanarkand in him.

5.- About the DZ that appears inside of Sin while you´re fighting Jecht, Yeah, You can´t see anybody there because there were no close up to the city , So, here is another thing that can´t be right or wrong , There´s is the city but nobody can´t say "there´s people , there´s no people", but that´s without any doubt Zanarkand..

No close up to the city? The whole city was one bustling metropolis, and Tidus says the city never sleeps. Yet we never see anything resembling intelligence. The buildings are all worn down, fading, unreal, nothing like the Zanarkand we see in the opening.

Honestly, take a look at the opening Zanarkand, then walk through Sin. it's perfectly obvious they're not the same thing. I mean, for one, Sins Zanarkand is stuffed with monsters, while Tidus says monsters were a rare occurance in Zanarkand. Secondly, there are pyreflies all over the place, something you won't see in Zanarkand. Thirdly, they just look completely different!

The Zanarkand you see in Sin is a ghost town, a fading dream, misty and abandoned. The Zanarkand we see in the opening is huge and bustling, technological, full of people and not fading at all.

Oh, and I just realised another strong argument against DZ being inside Sin. Why would Yu Yevon put the city he's trying to keep alive and protected inside the creature which is destoryed uttelry every now and then?

I mean, the Final Aeon does actually defeat Sin before molding with Yu Yevon to become a new Sin, so DZ would be destroyed.
And since Yu Yevon had planned himself for Sin to be destroyed every now and then it wouldn't make sense for him to put DZ inside Sin.

bout Auron Riding Sin, that sounds pretty ambiguous, Imagine Auron in the back of sin saying "hey you, take me to DZ", And you´ll tell "Jecht take him to there" ..

Firstly, Jecht as Sin visited DZ often so Auron wouldn't have to ask him or anything.
Secondly, since Jecht wanted to free Tidus, and he still knew who Auron was, he probably willingly brought him there to help get Tidus out.

Where Auron is "sitting" when Sin takes him is irrelevant, but we do know Auron rode with Sin.

But the Tidus transport scene don´t looks like they get in the back of that huge ball of water and get a ride , for me more like tidus being launched outside of the body, there´s no enough information in the game that explains the whole process so, we can´t use that words from sauron anymore unless we find a clear and direct relation.

Of course we can use Aurons words! We can't ignore them simply it's not easy imagining him riding with Sin. Square still put them in the game, so we can't ignore them.

Anyway, we know Tidus got swallowed by Sin(that's why we see him swimming around in the weird looking Zanarkand, which is of course the one inside Sin). That's another thing by the way:

First we see a bustling Zanarkand. Then Tidus gets swallowed by Sin, and then we see the same Zanarkand we see when we're inside Sin later.

Putting two and two together I think it looks obvious that the real DZ was not inside Sin.

why they have all the technology but they can´t leave the place, and I know you´re going to say "yevon controls them mentally so they don´t think about geting out"... But I want to know about that "ONE CITY WORLD " official phrase.

Not sure what you mean. Yes, Yu Yevon only summoned DZ and probably some immediate surroundings, he didn't summon an entirely new world or universe. That would be outside of even his powers.

So he summoned that one city, and made sure everyone stayed inside by mind controlling them, as is stated in the Ultimania Guide.
Nothing more to say on the subject really.

To sum up, the simplest solution is almost always the correct one. In this case, assuming DZ is inside Sin requires a whole lot of imagination and speculation, while assuming it isn't in Sin brings up no problems whatsoever.

[Wilder]

1.- Ok, I know that FMV did happen in the reality.I can´t say that Sin is the waterball , For me, is more Jecht with the aeon braska form than anything else, We can´t see what is in the waterball, but if you keep insisting that it´s sin, welll, thats your opinion.
2.- Sir bahamut , Obiously "iniside Sin" is an anormal place, like another dimension , because you can´t see limits around , when you fight sin you can see that he is not that huge, so , DZ can perfectly fit inside of sin . If you noticed it, You travel from the Nucleo to the DZ that I´m talkin about to fight JEcht, So, If DZ is not psysically inside of sin, The portal is in the nucleo , the problem is that you dont believe that is the real DZ.
3.- Ok, When I say DZ, I´m talling about tha city that you SEE in the bottom of the fight with jecht, I´m Not talkin about "the city of Dying Dreams" or "The tower of dead" , You Can´t walk trough DZ in this part of the game , you can only see it down there , that´s what I meaned , I´ve said about a million of times, DZ is only at the bottom like an image, when you fight Jecht.
4.- Ok, Magical Pirflyes from sin are giving special power to jecht to create his own zanarkand around, but... why when we defeat him, why when he vanish to the farplane , DZ still there at the bottom ?, That DZ don´t disapear when you defeat Jecht, And I find a terrible mistake on the game when the whole party appeared in the airship outside sin like magic (probaly the faith put them there, I don´t know it isn´t exlained) , .... Have you seen that when yuna is performing the sending , Sin is finished in 2 explosions ?, not in one.
5.- There´s no part in the game that explains if the atack that we see in the "blitzball FMV" was the first one , so , we know that The people in DZ dont´s know anything about the existence of something called Sin , as we see in tidus reaction. so, you´re expeculating saying that sin go there many times and no atack the city or nobody ever see it, And don´t say anything about jecht because there were many other Sin´s before, Sin getting near DZ is something non-explained int the game, and the theoory that Jecht acidentally touched sin when it was sleeping in the water is just so simple.
6.- Yeah, The myghty ultimania guide says that DZ is A "one City WOrld" , so, there are 3 options, DZ is in the bottom of the sea ( ) DZ is in another dimension, or DZ is inisde of sin.

[Lon611]

i got a couple of questions:

1)why does auron say "we called it Sin?"i mean that's past tense. isn't it still called sin?why the past tense then?

2)how come sin "creates", in a sense, a different "dimension" or place, so to speak once he's defeated?you clearly enter something different than just a giant floatind demon. you enter something...more. i don't kno. wouldn't that raise the question that dz could be in another plane?or did we solve, that already?lol

[Sir Bahamut]

For me, is more Jecht with the aeon braska form than anything else, We can´t see what is in the waterball, but if you keep insisting that it´s sin, welll, thats your opinion.

Wee do see what's in the waterball. We see a friggin huge, Sinlike monster. Since there's no record of any other such monster, and it would be ridiculous to think Square threw one in to confuse us, it has to be Sin. Not my opinion. Fact.

And Braskas Final Aeon form? Wasn't NEARLY that huge. The waterball we see contains a monster that literally dwarves the party. But Braskas Final Aeon form is only around two or three times as tall as Tidus.
Just look at the FMV again, and compare it to Braskas Final Aeon.
Besides, one thing we DO see in the bubble is many eyes on the huge head, something definitely not present on BFA.

Really, take a look at the opening FMV, you might be surprised at how much we see.

Obiously "iniside Sin" is an anormal place, like another dimension , because you can´t see limits around , when you fight sin you can see that he is not that huge, so , DZ can perfectly fit inside of sin

You can't see limits around because he's made up of pyreflies, and they make up the images we see, including the apparently limitless skies.
You have to assume there's another dimensions inside Sin.

3.- Ok, When I say DZ, I´m talling about tha city that you SEE in the bottom of the fight with jecht, I´m Not talkin about "the city of Dying Dreams" or "The tower of dead" , You Can´t walk trough DZ in this part of the game , you can only see it down there , that´s what I meaned , I´ve said about a million of times, DZ is only at the bottom like an image, when you fight Jecht.

So I suppose you'd suggest we can't hear anything from the city that never sleeps or detect any motion at all down there from flashing lights because it had been temporarily suspended?

And think of this(you ignored this argument last post): Tidus is in DZ. Then he's swallowed by Sin(he's swallowed, not spit out, or else he should be flying in midair and landing in "the real world", not swimming around in a city) and you see him in the place you fight BFA.

It's clear that they are seperated. The Zanarkand you see in the beginning and end inside Sin are quite visibly seperated from the huge flashy Zanarkand. In the opening, Tidus even flows around as if the whole place was overflown, clearly not the case.

Ok, Magical Pirflyes from sin are giving special power to jecht to create his own zanarkand around, but... why when we defeat him, why when he vanish to the farplane , DZ still there at the bottom ?, That DZ don´t disapear when you defeat Jecht

Because Jecht wasn't dead yet. He didn't die until he was sent, just like Auron stayed alive until he was sent.

As for how long it took for Sin to explode, take in mind that he's REALLY big, so it probably wasn't like sending any random deas guy.

so, you´re expeculating saying that sin go there many times and no atack the city or nobody ever see it

Ok, I should have specified. Sin as Jecht went to DZ a lot. This is stated in the game. He rested there a lot, as he missed the place. This is even stated in the Ultimania as well as the game.
Obviously no one saw him, as he wouldn't want to show himself, would he?

By the way, this presents an even better argument. We are told that Sin visits DZ often, as he misses the place(confirmed in Ultimania). He goes there and stays in the seas outside it, which is why Jecht met him while fishing.
If DZ is inside himself, why is it implied that he has to travel to get there?

And another, it is made clear that Jecht touched Sin. So if DZ was inside Sin, how could he touch Sin in that way? Sin inside Sin?
And I'm afraid assuming Square meant to say he touched Braskas Final Aeon won't cut it.

The game says he touched Sin and there's no reason to think the games lying.

Yeah, The myghty ultimania guide says that DZ is A "one City WOrld" , so, there are 3 options, DZ is in the bottom of the sea ( ) DZ is in another dimension, or DZ is inisde of sin.

Whoah, whoah. 3 options? I told you before, and I'll say it again: look at the FFX world map. Mark out all the locations where DZ could be where it wouldn't be noticeable by people. I can assure you that there are FAR more than 3 possibilities.

There are literally hundreds of places it could be just in the ocean somewhere. Then there's underneath the ocean as you mentioned, here there are thousands of possibilities. Then there's high in the sky, like a floating island maybe. Then there's on high mountains, or in deep valleys covered by mountains. Then there's inside massive caves.

MANY more than 3 options.

But look:

The theory that DZ is inside Sin requires these assumptions:

1) It wasn't Sin that attacked DZ in the opening FMV as is implied by both the image of the beast, Auron calling it "Sin", the later plot as "Sin" freed Tidus.
One has to assume that it was another massive Sin-like monster which appeared seemingly out of nowhere.
You must agree with me that it is MUCH simpler saying that it was Sin itself who attacked, right?

2) Yu Yevon put the thing he was trying to protect inside a creature he had planned to let get destroyed regularly(you ignored this argument previously by the way).
You must agree that Yu Yevon would be pretty stupid to put DZ inside something that would destroyed on a regular basis, right?

3) That the area inside Sin is another plane/dimension, or contains another plane/dimension where DZ exists.
You must agree that it is much simpler to state that DZ simply exists in the real world, in comparison to making up another dimension for it to be in, right?

Really, looking at it from the simples point of view, it is obvious that Sin attacked DZ, DZ is not inside Sin, and that the Zanarkand we see in Sin is a result pf pyreflies forming Jechts thoughts.

1)why does auron say "we called it Sin?"i mean that's past tense. isn't it still called sin?why the past tense then?

I think he's just being reflective over him, jecht and Braska. They called Sin on their journey, hence the past tense.
But regardless, the implications are there: the monster we see is called Sin, and there's only one Sin we know of in the game, and that Sin ain't the same as BFA.

2)how come sin "creates", in a sense, a different "dimension" or place, so to speak once he's defeated?you clearly enter something different than just a giant floatind demon.

What do you mean, when he's defeated?

When we enter Sin, it doesn't look like we entered a flying demon, that's right, because of the pyreflies! The pyreflies make up the image we see inside Sin.

Assuming it is the pyreflies that decieve us is far more likely than an alternate dimensions. At least, it's much simpler.

[Wilder]

Mr Sir bahamut , You´re forgeting something very important, no matter how much do you think DZ is not inside sin , the only time you see DZ is inside of sin, an that´s is, There´s no prove that Jecht creates that zanarkand, no proves that DZ is in another place in spira, and when i say PROVE I refers to something specifically seen or read in the game. If we continue to speculate about theories or relating this with that , this topic is going to be never ending. As far as I know, Seeing a Zanarkand inside of sin is the closer clue that that the game give to us about DZ ubication, there´s is no part in the game in wich somebody even ask where is DZ ubicated, Auron knows but he ain´t talk too much. Sir bahamut , your arguments are very good but are based in your ability to relate facts and opinions, when there comes to images and words, there´s no argument that can deny that the only DZ that we see in the entire game is ubicated inside sin, don´t matter who the hell created , because that´s not explained in the game , Jecht created ? , who said that, where is written ?. And the DZ that we see when the faith magically send tidus in trip dreams are not usable , becuase the way to get there is not show. I even believe more about that theory of the Waterfall that transform in a ball of water with the images of the people in zanarkand than in your thery about a "secret place in Spira", that´s totally made out. Please, base your counter theory in things that can be seen or read specifically in the game, DZ can be seen in the game , Jecht creating it not, anybody saying something about it, no.

[bubbadaman]

what i got the impression of sin being in DZ

heres what i think its verry logical

in the game is said: Yu yevon KEEPS summoning zanarkand
so therefore zanarkand keeps being destroyed.

next point: Sin and Yu yevon... keeps summoning a dream zanarkand and a dream sin(how yu yevon saw or however) so therefore when Auron says we called it sin its past tense because it is the sin from thousand years destroying the thousand year old city

wwhat do u think happens when auron and tidus leave sin zanarkand isnt all nice and pretty !!!!! yu yevon re summons it

Um yeah ive played thru the game several times i think i know what im talking about... i think who ever is posting the info from that book its a bunch of fanfic all you gotta do is understand the dialouge and OPEN YOUR EYES AND SEE ZANARKAND BEHIND BRASKAS FINAL AEON(JECHT)

[Sir Bahamut]

The only DZ we see isn't only inside Sin, that's only your opinion, nothing more nothing less. We see what appears to a very dreamlike Zanarkand under Jecht. The only DZ we see which we KNOW is DZ is the DZ we see in the opening, and in those films at Seymours house.

No there's no proof that Jecht creates that Zanarkand, no proof that DZ is hidden somewhere else in Spira, but there's no proof it's inside Sin either, because as I said, there's a perfectly logical alternate explanation. There's not any proof on where DZ is, they don't even tell us in Ultimania.

Yes, my arguments are based on using logic and relating facts, but what's wrong with that? What good is it that we see a Zanarkand inside Sin when it would be completely illogical for Sin getting inside himself to attack it?

I believe Square follow logic and common sense, and because of this(and the other arguments mentioned) make it clear, at least in my eyes, that it is quite illogical for DZ to be inside Sin. Since there is then a perfectly good alternate explanation for the Zanarkand we see inside Sin, which doesn't create all sorts of logical contradictions, that is definitely a better explanation.

You can ignore my arguments on the basis that I'm not providing an alternate image of Zanarkand, but the fact remains that my arguments show that DZ inside Sin is ILLOGICAL and quite silly. If you can't face up to that(which seems to be the case), then that's your own problem.

in the game is said: Yu yevon KEEPS summoning zanarkand
so therefore zanarkand keeps being destroyed.

That doesn't make any sense at all. If Yu Yevon keeps summoning DZ is keeps getting destroyed? How about Yu Yevon keeps summonging DZ no matter what, period. That doesn't imply anything about the destruction of the city.

next point: Sin and Yu yevon... keeps summoning a dream zanarkand and a dream sin(how yu yevon saw or however) so therefore when Auron says we called it sin its past tense because it is the sin from thousand years destroying the thousand year old city

Sin is not a dream.

And just because Sin has been around for a thousand years, doesn't mean he should use past tense. I mean, people still call it Sin, even one thousand years after he was made. He sort of implies that people stopped calling him Sin.

Um yeah ive played thru the game several times i think i know what im talking about... i think who ever is posting the info from that book its a bunch of fanfic all you gotta do is understand the dialouge and OPEN YOUR EYES AND SEE ZANARKAND BEHIND BRASKAS FINAL AEON(JECHT)

I've played through the game several times too, so I think I know what I'm talking about too.
And it's not a fanfic. Do a Google Search for Ultimania Omega Guide and you'll quickly realise it IS in fact official Square stuff.

Anyway, I won't "open my eyes and see Zanarkand" until you or Wilder can counter my arguments that show it to be illogical. If you won't, on the basis that "doesn't matter how good your arguments are, we still see a Zanarkand in Sin" then I'll take that as a victory on my part.

[Sir Bahamut]

Let me put it this way:

There are two explanations for the Zanarkand we see inside Sin.

1) The Zanarkand we see is in fact DZ.
2) The Zanarkand we see is a result of pyreflies reacting the Jechts memories and thoughts(perfectly plausible, logical and possible).

The first explanation gives way to several logical contradictions as well as baseless assumptions.
The second explanation causes no problems whatsoever.

Since DZ is still free to be located anywhere else in Spira, the second explanation is the best.

[bubbadaman]

yu yevon is inside sin yu yevon summons dream zanarkand... ject does not... hmmmmm.. yu yevon is inside sin I WONDER WHERE Dream ZANARKAND IS

no where in the game does it say that jecht is yu yevon. Auron: Sin is Jecht. Auron does not say Yu Yevon is Jecht.

U make it sound like you havent played the game or at least listen to the dialouge. Even if you have im pretty sure ur wrong

im sorry theres no "Physical Evidence" in a Fantasy Game.

[Wilder]

In fact, This is a game, a especially well made one, but is a game where anything can happens and it´s no atached to real world rules so, It´s very difficult to prove somethings like this.

There are two explanations for the Zanarkand we see inside Sin.

1) The Zanarkand we see is in fact DZ.
2) The Zanarkand we see is a result of pyreflies reacting the Jechts memories and thoughts(perfectly plausible, logical and possible).

The first explanation gives way to several logical contradictions as well as baseless assumptions.
The second explanation causes no problems whatsoever.

Since DZ is still free to be located anywhere else in Spira, the second explanation is the best

There are some very good points in Sir bahamut theory that makes DS inside of sin weak, but then it´s seems that in every FF game there´s an incredible theory about a part of the history unsolved and a "realistic" theory that counter it. Let´s put an example, about what happen to tidus at the end, He Vanished, the dream is over, and at the end some images of him raising in the water again, all that the plot want us the make us believe was deny by a single image, then was FF-X2, I havent played FF-X2 to the end but the spoilers are just so strongs about the deception , that I already know that tidus Is back with yuna even when I never touched the game. But what would have hapenned if Square people have decided to let the story like that ?, Inmedialty a lot of theories about tidus death and a lot of counter with all kind of relations with this and that , But what ?, Square decided to let tidus live and there are people enough strong to say "I Want Tidus dead and he is going To remain Dead so, I´m going to ignore FFX-2, Because tidus Is dead and I don´t want to see him anymore, I want FF-X ending be the ending", What ??... My argument or mr Bahamauth argument would have been destroyed with the simple fact of DZ existing after all that disaster, but it´s not, They put it there for that, And that was the intention of tidus in FFX, have you played FF VIII ? ( If you don´t Spoilers ahead) I´m still believing that Rinoa is ultimecia , bcause they put it there for that , But if they want , they can make a sequel and say tha Ultimecia is squall himself, no matter how few sense it have , they are the creators... I´ve thinking that we trying to prove or disaprove the theories think about a lot of things that square didn´t realize in the making, The seem to laugh when people desperate e-mail them with questions about made theories, R-U is an amazing ad for FFVIII it makes me play the game one more times, no matter if it´s real or not, for me sounds very logical to me, let´s back to the topic.

Sir bahamut , if we get so logical there are going to be parts in the game that wouldn´t fit, and there´s when magical answers appears from the nowhere made up by people analize. For Example, You say it´s ilogical that Sin is inside of sin , that not sound so ilogical for me as "why Sin would atack DZ ?", now that sounds ilogical but Square show it like that And I have To Ask why ? right ?, Why Tidus can be in is psysical state in spyra and be send to DZ by the faith staying in spira at the same time , in this part you beginn thinking a bout the faith being so powerfull so he show images in the mind of tidus, and in the next post I would say But the faith say "you´re not dreaming, you´re a dream" and this conversation would be never ending, so let´s froget it, Why if DZ is a dream It´s like real , then it was created, Noo, square think abou it and said, well , letñs maje Yevon summons it for ral, Right , the problem ended. Why sauron as unsent people can make it aliva and don´t become a fiend like other people, Square thought about it , let´s say that the people who have some mission or strong links to the world can make it , RighT , that explains it all !!! (Just like that movie "ghost" , It´s so romantic ) .
Think about it, why they would create the most important location in the entire game and don´t give it a space , Zanarkands ruins , I´m not talking a bout that, If DZ is a dream i´should not exist !, if it´s a psycical location , WHERE IT IS !, If Square not gave a physycal location to DZ that´s a ugly detail, because in some part of the game , i have to airship and I have all the time of the world to find that location no matter how is it ( and being that big as you say DZ would produced an incredible amount of light around it, it would be able to see from the sky very easily), And in this part you´ll be thinking a bout Clouds, and deep sea, and mountains so high , and islands and whatever your imagination can create, but you got to acept that square thought even in locations that don´t have nothing to do with the plot, And DZ is in the FIRST FMV , it´s extremely important ! , it´s almost imposible nobody tought about giving it a location, and I´ll say it again , Or is a dream that´s not Physical, or is inside of sin, and you´re going to say , "it can be anywhere", no in this kind of games in wich everything is so planned , FF is specialized in locations , in secret places to discover, in the plot , not in leave the most important city in the entire game in a " unknow place all the game" . About jecht dreaming his own DZ , well... I don´t why you keep on that when it´s not written in any place of the game and when the only argument that you have is the Farplane , if you want to continue saying that Jecht Create it find a dialogue that prove it, I got the impossible to ignore image of DZ behind Jecht in the last fight, I got the most than solid fact that when Jecht dies and IS SEND AND VANISH AND WHERE JECHT EXIST NO MORE , DZ still there until yevon is killed , what about that ?.

[Lon611]

lemme help sir bahamut on this one, lol

1)just because yu yevon is summoning dz from within sin doesn't mean that it is inside sin. you could summon something a miles away if u felt like it. there's nothing in the game that says the summon has to be in the same area as the summoner. and i doubt it would because thats just bullplop.

2)i don't understand ur point. you're just stating the obivous. no1 thinks jecht is yu yevon...we see that in the final battles!!

3)you don't have to bash at people.

4)yes,there is NO proof in a fantasy game unless it says so within the game, or unless all reasonable logic points to it.and in this case, based on sir bahamuts arguments, points to it :rolleyes2

and in response to wilder, yes, in a ff game, the real world rules don't apply. however, based on the rules of spira, you can make conclusions of ur own using once again, logical analysis

[Sir Bahamut]

yu yevon is inside sin yu yevon summons dream zanarkand... ject does not... hmmmmm.. yu yevon is inside sin I WONDER WHERE Dream ZANARKAND IS

no where in the game does it say that jecht is yu yevon. Auron: Sin is Jecht. Auron does not say Yu Yevon is Jecht.

Yeah, Lon covered these.

U make it sound like you havent played the game or at least listen to the dialouge. Even if you have im pretty sure ur wrong

Funny, I could say the same about you. Anyway, what seems more likely is that you are not reading my posts properly.

Sir bahamut , if we get so logical there are going to be parts in the game that wouldn´t fit, and there´s when magical answers appears from the nowhere made up by people analize. For Example, You say it´s ilogical that Sin is inside of sin , that not sound so ilogical for me as "why Sin would atack DZ ?", now that sounds ilogical but Square show it like that And I have To Ask why ? right ?,

It doesn't? Well, picture yourself trying to get inside yourself. Having a hard time? You'd be lying if you said no. For the same reason, it is completely illogical and impossible for Sin to be inside himself.

As for why Sin would attack DZ, that's not illogical at all, it's even explained in the game. Sin as Jecht attacked DZ because it was the only way to get Tidus out of there, and as we are told, Jecht wanted Tidus to have a go at the "real life", ie. outside the 'dream' world.

Perfectly logical.

Think about it, why they would create the most important location in the entire game and don´t give it a space , Zanarkands ruins , I´m not talking a bout that, If DZ is a dream i´should not exist !, if it´s a psycical location , WHERE IT IS !

We are never told where it is, it's just something Square decided to leave out. That's why the location of DZ was only referred to as being "somewhere in Spira" in the Ultimania. Square didn't WANT us to know where it was.

because in some part of the game , i have to airship and I have all the time of the world to find that location no matter how is it ( and being that big as you say DZ would produced an incredible amount of light around it, it would be able to see from the sky very easily), And in this part you´ll be thinking a bout Clouds, and deep sea, and mountains so high , and islands and whatever your imagination can create, but you got to acept that square thought even in locations that don´t have nothing to do with the plot,

Sure, you have an airship, but this is a summoned city. Yu Yevon may have summoned a wall around DZ which makes it appear to be not there.
Or it's simply on the other side of the planet.

Anyway, just 'cause you have an Airship doesn't mean you can spend all your time searching the planet. Plotwise, that's not going to happen, and it didn't happen either.

it´s almost imposible nobody tought about giving it a location, and I´ll say it again , Or is a dream that´s not Physical, or is inside of sin, and you´re going to say , "it can be anywhere", no in this kind of games in wich everything is so planned , FF is specialized in locations , in secret places to discover, in the plot , not in leave the most important city in the entire game in a " unknow place all the game" .

I'm not saying no one thought of giving it a location, I'm saying that Square didn't want us to visit DZ in the game, or see it. Plotwise, that didn't fit in, so they decided to have DZ be put somewhere we can't see it.

PLOTWISE, they didn't want DZ to be seen.

About jecht dreaming his own DZ , well... I don´t why you keep on that when it´s not written in any place of the game and when the only argument that you have is the Farplane , if you want to continue saying that Jecht Create it find a dialogue that prove it,

No, it's not written anywhere in the game, but it isn't written in the game that DZ is inside Sin either so that is irrelevant.

Anyway, my only argument isn't the farplane. It's from what Maechen and the rest of the game tell us about pyreflies(I quoted Maechen earlier on).

Fact 1) Pyreflies respon to humans thoughts, emotions and memories, and will form images based on those, when in contact with human beings. This is stated clearly in the game, and is proven through the act of summoning and the Farplane.

Fact 2) Sin is made up entirely of pyreflies held together by gravity spells.

Fact 3) Sin, ie. Jecht misses DZ a lot, visits it a lot, and obviously then thinks about it a lot. He's also very sad about being Sin(understandable, I guess).

Combining those three facts tell us that quite logically, when inside Sin, we should see pyreflies responding to Jechts thoughts, memories and emotions, and they should probably reflect his thoughts on DZ.
When we then see a dreamlike, Zanarkandlike city inside Sin, the assumption that it comes from the pyreflies is perfectly logical.

The game doesn't spoonfeed us everything. No, it gives us many facts here and there which we can piece together to form a coherent picture of the events in the game.

So unless you can show otherwise, Zanarkand in Sin being a result of the pyreflies is perfectly logical, and as I have shown, MORE logical than the Zanarkand in Sin being DZ.



[quote]I got the impossible to ignore image of DZ behind Jecht in the last fight, I got the most than solid fact that when Jecht dies and IS SEND AND VANISH AND WHERE JECHT EXIST NO MORE , DZ still there until yevon is killed , what about that ?.

I got the impossible to ignore image of DZ behind Jecht in the last fight, I got the most than solid fact that when Jecht dies and IS SEND AND VANISH AND WHERE JECHT EXIST NO MORE , DZ still there until yevon is killed , what about that ?.

Firstly, if we do actually assume that Jecht was completely dead after the BFA fight, then your argument is flawed. DZ is around for a bit longer, but then it all fades away and we end up fighting Yu Yevon on that weird sword thing floatinng in midair. No sign of any city anymore when fighting Yu Yevon.

Just check for yourself. It seems perfectly plausible that the pyreflies wouldn't dissolve instantly, but that, due to the magnitude of the image they form, it takes some time before it all fades(which it does).

Secondly, since Sin IS Jecht with added pyreflies, I'd wager that even after the sending of Jecht we see, Jecht wasn't completely dead, because as you see, Sin is still there.

And thirdly, the city we see is only DZ in your opinion, so stop caling it that. All we see is a city that appears to be Zanarkand. And as I said earlier, it's the same city we see when we get swallowed by Sin in the opening. Ie. you're in the real DZ, for sure. Then you get swallowed by Sin and you end up where you are in the ending FMV.

Logically, the DZ in the opening isn't the same DZ that's inside Sin simply because the opening intro shows a clear seperation. What about that?

[Wilder]

All right, I need to say that this a merely fun conversation, Our opinions don´t have anythin to do with the official truth, so there´s no need to bash nobody.
Let´s continue !!

It doesn't? Well, picture yourself trying to get inside yourself. Having a hard time? You'd be lying if you said no.

I try and I Find it very difficult. Mr bahamut you ignored what I said about Tidus being in the walls of the faith in Mt Gagazat and being at the same time at DZ, So you´ll say "it was a dream ", and the faith himself answer you "it´s not a dream, you´re a dream".

Sure, you have an airship, but this is a summoned city. Yu Yevon may have summoned a wall around DZ which makes it appear to be not there.
Or it's simply on the other side of the planet.

I have to said that you cross the expaculation edge with this one Sir bahamut, why don´t you accept that Dz should be especially noisy and brighty to be hide in the surface ?, if it´s invicible by a Yevons trick , why Sin can see it ?. You say a lot that the DZ inside sin requires a lot of imagination , but you win in this one, you have more imagination than me Lolllll.

Anyway, just 'cause you have an Airship doesn't mean you can spend all your time searching the planet. Plotwise, that's not going to happen, and it didn't happen either.

Why you say that ?, the party have all the time to go fight omega, the dark aeons , play with chocobos, fight panacea, go have a drink, capturing a massive quantity of mosnter, and you say that the party don´t going to spend time on that ?, that SHOULD be in the plot, in some way .

Firstly, if we do actually assume that Jecht was completely dead after the BFA fight, then your argument is flawed. DZ is around for a bit longer, but then it all fades away and we end up fighting Yu Yevon on that weird sword thing floatinng in midair. No sign of any city anymore when fighting Yu Yevon.

no, you go check that scene, when yevon dies and the whole red weird scenario is gone, You see Yuna performing the sending dancing with DZ at the bottom, all the time the party seems to be there DZ can be see.

And thirdly, the city we see is only DZ in your opinion, so stop caling it that. All we see is a city that appears to be Zanarkand. And as I said earlier, it's the same city we see when we get swallowed by Sin in the opening. Ie. you're in the real DZ, for sure. Then you get swallowed by Sin and you end up where you are in the ending FMV.

This is very very interesting, because you say that the ball of water from the begginning is Sin while you can´t see what´s inside, Instead , here you see an identical Dream zanarkand and you say, even it´s identical "I can´t say that´s the DZ", well, That´s not sin either !.

The only DZ we see isn't only inside Sin, that's only your opinion, nothing more nothing less. We see what appears to a very dreamlike Zanarkand under Jecht. The only DZ we see which we KNOW is DZ is the DZ we see in the opening, and in those films at Seymours house.

ok, we see one in tidus weird images, he sleeps , he awakes , no road. We see another Dz in Seymour house, There´s no way to know if he is entering to THE DZ, but the game don´t show the road to get there yet. Now, In Sin Dz you can practically WALK to there, you see the road. And please, answer me about the ignored theory that if Dz is not inside of sin AT LEAST , the portal to get there is inside of him in the nucleo.
Keep going this is fun !

[Sir Bahamut]

Mr bahamut you ignored what I said about Tidus being in the walls of the faith in Mt Gagazat and being at the same time at DZ, So you´ll say "it was a dream ", and the faith himself answer you "it´s not a dream, you´re a dream".

I don't see the relevance, but anyway.

That's supposed to be two sided. Ie. Tidus says "This is a dream" and Bahamut answer "Exactly" followed by the revelation that Tidus is a dream. Then the fayth says "It's not that you're dreaming, you are a dream".

He's talking about Tidus, but regardless of that, it's obvious what we see is only in Tidus head. After all, his body never dissapears from where he and the party were when he collapsed. And since Tidus is part of the dream the Fayth are dreaming, I reckon they have some possibilities to focus in on one of the citizens like that.

Actually, they'd have to have that possibility, because it's not like Yu Yevon would have let them discuss him ending the dream =P

I have to said that you cross the expaculation edge with this one Sir bahamut, why don´t you accept that Dz should be especially noisy and brighty to be hide in the surface ?, if it´s invicible by a Yevons trick , why Sin can see it ?. You say a lot that the DZ inside sin requires a lot of imagination , but you win in this one, you have more imagination than me Lolllll.

The DZ inside Sin requires far more imagination than the proposition that Yu Yevon could summon a pyrefly wall which made up an image that hid DZ.

However, if you don't like the idea that DZ is on the surface, then rule it out then. We still have underwater, or in the sky.

Why you say that ?, the party have all the time to go fight omega, the dark aeons , play with chocobos, fight panacea, go have a drink, capturing a massive quantity of mosnter, and you say that the party don´t going to spend time on that ?, that SHOULD be in the plot, in some way .

It doesn't matter what SHOULD be in the plot. All the monster catching and stuff ain't in the plot officially, and neither is a great search for DZ.

They don't go looking for DZ so don't expect them to have found it.

no, you go check that scene, when yevon dies and the whole red weird scenario is gone, You see Yuna performing the sending dancing with DZ at the bottom, all the time the party seems to be there DZ can be see.

Actually, you're right, my mistake. However, I'm still going to argue that it would take some time before the pyreflies faded away into some other picture. In fact, I'd wager they were molded into that picture after such a long time, but that's just my opinion.

Anyway, after Yu Yevon dies, shouldn't the dream, and thus Tidus fade at once? Perhaps, but they don't. Tidus(and the DZ, if you assume DZ is the city inside Sin) stays around much longer.

Similarly, we shouldn't expect the pyrefly city of Jechts mind to fade at once.

This is very very interesting, because you say that the ball of water from the begginning is Sin while you can´t see what´s inside, Instead , here you see an identical Dream zanarkand and you say, even it´s identical "I can´t say that´s the DZ", well, That´s not sin either !.

Ok, enough of this. It's Sin, no arguing.
Look, in the intro, this is what we learn about the monster in the bubble:

1) It's huge. I mean REALLY huge. It appears to be the size of Sin(comparing to the FMV at Mushroom Rock). Nothing in the game we see is as huge, except Sin.

Even BFA is dwarfed by the huge monster, so it couldn't possibly be BFA.

2) What we see of it's "face" and "skin" resembles Sin(comparing to FMV at Mushroom Rock). It's face is as big and full of eyes(that we can clearly see, just check yourself) as Sins, and it's flesh/skin resembles that of Sins. No other creature in the game has the same "face" or "flesh".

3) Auron calls it Sin. He would know what Sin was, don't you think? So we can rule out him calling anything but Sin, Sin.

4) It produces what the game calls "Sinspawn". This you can see in battle. No other creature in the game produces spawn like that, and the only creature called "Sin" which spawns "Sinspawn" is, you guessed it, Sin.

Honestly, look at all those points. Are you honestly telling me you think Square intended the creature in the beginning to be anything but Sin? You'd be mad if you did, in my eyes.
And if you do still think it could be something else than Sin, we might as well stop discussing right now.

Anyway, based on the conclusion that Sin attacks DZ, it becomes physically IMPOSSIBLE for DZ to be inside Sin. No amount of magic can cause a paradox like that. It's impossible for Sin to be inside himself, yet at the same time not inside himself. Assuming Square are trying to mess with our heads by putting such a huge logical impossibility is really farfetched if you ask me.

And please, answer me about the ignored theory that if Dz is not inside of sin AT LEAST , the portal to get there is inside of him in the nucleo.

Same problem. Sin would still have to enter himself while simultaneously not entering himself. Except here you're also having to assume that Yu Yevon was able to create an alternate dimension and place the portal inside Sin. If you think I have too much imagination for suggesting Yu Yevon could disguise DZ, then I wonder what this must come off as...