The American goverment is the worst in the world!

[Endless]

I have many sorts of aswers to the original poster, which I think will sum up pretty much what a lot (if not all) the people who posted here think.

The first kind is, well, to point and laugh at you. Let's get into details. You don't like how the US President is elected, yet Estonia has the following system:
president elected by Parliament for a five-year term; if he or she does not secure two-thirds of the votes after three rounds of balloting in the Parliament, then an electoral assembly (made up of Parliament plus members of local governments) elects the president, choosing between the two candidates with the largest percentage of votes
Which means that virtually, people have no direct control of who is elected president either.
The judiciary branch (National Court) chairman is appointed for life by the Parliament. At least in the US, the AG and DoJ get reshuffled.

The GDP of Estonia (ppp) per capita is $12,300 (2004 est).
The GDP of the USA (ppp) per capita is ... *drumrolls* $37,800 (2004 est.)

Do I really need to keep showing why living in the USA is currently (slash has been for centuries slash will be for a long time) much, much better than living in Estonia?

The second sort of answer is just to blow you off. If you dislike everything from the USA so much, you might aswell leave now, considering the majority of the EoFF community lives there, that the server is hosted there, that the owner is from there, etc...

The third kind, which you seem to prety much ignore, is to argue and ask you to answer some pretty simple question.

Also the wellbeing of your citizens is only due to the resources you have, not because of the government.You think there is a lot of crops in the desert area?What about materials?

Japan does a pretty damn good job, with only 374,744 sq km of land, much of which is mountain area, thus cannot be used for living or ressource growing/digging.

Also I think that anyone who likes their country would say that they wouldnt live anywhere else.So that isnt much of a statement.

I could live in the US. In fact, I might very well move there in the next 6 years, because I'd be paid a lot more for the same job.

Those troops that you speak of have helped more than 100 000 civilians to their death.

But they're protecting 200 millions americans. Also, you seem to think the US is personally rsponsible for all the casulaities in Iraq, when most comes from... bombings. From other Iraqis. And Iranians/Syrians/...

Now people hate America a whole lot more.

It's more that they found a good scapegoat to not feel bad about their own government's failures. It's easy to blame.

Let me tell you, I wake up in the morning full of excitement at the chance a new day brings to kill innocent civillians!

Are you a soldier?

Are you unable to see sarcasm when it's put in front of you?

You think the Islam extremists fear anything???They dont fear death.Why should they fear America?

In order: 1) they fear they will lose their autority, and that their extremist view of Islam will be replaced by a "much more open to Western culture" version of it. 2) They also fear death. Bin Laden wasn't on the planes, he was "masterminding". The high ranked terrorists and extremists are the first to call the other militants to do suicide attacks, but they are the last to show the example. 3) See 1.

Common sense does.It was basically:HEY SADAM OMGUHAVILLGLWEAPSZOFMASZDISTRCTNPLZLETUSINURSCRTBA SESNAUOMGLOLZ!!111one and when Saddam said no they immadietly went to war.

No, it took years and years of Saddam pushing the UN around. Which wasn't helped by the fact important people all over Europe had kickbacks from him, oil deals...

What other reasons could there be?Save Iraq?Dont make me laugh. Weapons of Mass Destruction?None there.
If it has no reason then the American government really is stupid.

I'd say that this was the best reply:

As much as I detest the war in Iraq, that is NOT the truth as to why we are there. It isn't about liberation, it isn't about weapons of mass destruction, it isn't about terrorism, and it isn't necessarily about oil. At least not in the way you claim. The war in Iraq has to do with strategic placement of U.S. troops and controlling recources like middle eastern oil. That's why we haven't seen a drop in gas prices. We don't need to use it, we just want to control it. Read "Rebuilding America's Defenses" from a conservative think tank known as "The Project for the New American Century". It outlines what the Bush administration WANTS to do. (It was written by a bunch of people, including Bush sr. Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, and Dick Cheney, just to name a few).

Oh, for the record, the biggest genocide ever commited was by the Communist regime(s) (USSR, China, Cambodia...) after the Second World War (80+ millions estimated deaths).

[edczxcvbnm]

yeah im jsut tired of some euro bastard who has never been to the states and if so probaly jsut to weitehr LA or New York City.and they tell me that those cities represents americ anad blah blah blah.But they dont go anywhere inbetween if they even come to the states.So they reallly don't see a thing here.Like come to oklahoma and depeding on wat month and what tribe you can goto a powow heck if your int eh tribe oyu can go into the meetings.People here are pretty nice a few idiots and they tend to be ignorant in the end but seriously people form other countries when they come to america they need to see more than just New York City.I mean come on.Me being black and you don't even have to be black oyu can be any race and know people in New York City act completely different than people from Atlanta.Heck definately if oyur from Oklahoma or New Mexico.Your not gonna have that fast steady movement you have in New York City.But I'm just tired of seeing people limit themselves.The fact that the same euro bastard who bashes USA gov. is also the same bastard who keeps up with USA politics more than I do.I mean its kewl and all but what about your country's politics? Like how Bush got the white christains on his side well he got all the southern states by doing that.Europeans raised an eyebrow uh oh? religion eviiill or some other BS like that. You guys pay attention to politics thats happening on the western hemisphere a little too much.

I have been all over America and I have noticed no difference in how people act.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

You've ignored this again so I'll reiterate it for your convenience.

You seem to have missed my point entirely. You've given many reasons why you dislike the government, yet you have failed UTTERLY in proving the statement you made for this thread, i.e. that the American government is the best in the world. As amusing as your ranting about how Bush is teh evil, the best you've come to even stating the very topic this thread is supposedly supposed to be about is some vague comments about things you don't like.

As far as differences in American culture, they are quite profound, depending on where you are. People act differently, I'm surprised that edczxcvbnm encountered no differences whatsoever, my experience has been rather different. Of course, this applies more to certain mannerisms, the basic behavior of people across the globe is both quite varied and very much the same, fairly ironic really.

[edczxcvbnm]

I think because I never lived in any area of America other than my own for any great extended period of time, I never got to know the certain mannerisms of the area or the way of life. But generally speaking, people are the same. Maybe I just don't really notice the differences myself because I consider them really petty and not really a difference.

It might just be how you look at it but to me its all the same. The only place I have not visited is the far west coast. Furthest I have made it out west is Utah. Other than that I have been up and down quite a bit of the east coast. NY(not the city), Boston, North/South Carolina, Florida. Also quite a bit of the south. A lot of a vactions were by car so we would make a lot of stops on the way also in small towns.

Everyone acted the same. I guess it is just what you notice or consider different.

[lordblazer]

Do I really need to keep showing why living in the USA is currently (slash has been for centuries slash will be for a long time) much, much better than living in Estonia?

we.. I dunno it sucked during 1865-1940. duriing the post civil war era the guilded age rose up.It sucked 75% of hte population was in mind blowing poverty and stuck in a big hole they didn't make.Living in the USA for all USA citizens wasnt good at all until 1970.After the civil rights movement and during the feminist movements.Once those events happened aro und 1980 most USA citizens live a quite comfortable lifesyle except for those in science projects(The Projects).But yeah your right dude this is ust bashing americans heck im american.A minority but im american.About the only place for me to live thats better than the USA is Canada.But they dont make as much money lol.But its a lot cleaner there.

[Doors]

The first kind is, well, to point and laugh at you. Let's get into details. You don't like how the US President is elected, yet Estonia has the following system:
president elected by Parliament for a five-year term; if he or she does not secure two-thirds of the votes after three rounds of balloting in the Parliament, then an electoral assembly (made up of Parliament plus members of local governments) elects the president, choosing between the two candidates with the largest percentage of votes
Which means that virtually, people have no direct control of who is elected president either.

The president isnt nearly as important here as in America.

The GDP of Estonia (ppp) per capita is $12,300 (2004 est).
The GDP of the USA (ppp) per capita is ... *drumrolls* $37,800 (2004 est.)
Do I really need to keep showing why living in the USA is currently (slash has been for centuries slash will be for a long time) much, much better than living in Estonia?

HOLY S**T I AM GONNA GO AND LIVE IN AMERICA RAIT AWEI!
I like it here in Estonia.

The second sort of answer is just to blow you off. If you dislike everything from the USA so much, you might aswell leave now, considering the majority of the EoFF community lives there, that the server is hosted there, that the owner is from there, etc...

Okay,

Japan does a pretty damn good job, with only 374,744 sq km of land, much of which is mountain area, thus cannot be used for living or ressource growing/digging.

They get money from proccessing resources that is gotten from other countries that is turned into resources.

I could live in the US. In fact, I might very well move there in the next 6 years, because I'd be paid a lot more for the same job.

Thats you and there is no facts that you are speaking for the majority.Maybe I like my home country.

But they're protecting 200 millions americans. Also, you seem to think the US is personally rsponsible for all the casulaities in Iraq, when most comes from... bombings. From other Iraqis. And Iranians/Syrians/...

Protecting them all from what?Open out war?There was one attack. One attack done by a terrorist faction.One attack which was first countered with a war on a country only related to the terrorist faction and then also paved the way to another war.
For the second part:They are fires lit by the inferno of America's war.

Are you unable to see sarcasm when it's put in front of you?

I am.I just didnt know theundeadhero was a soldier.

In order: 1) they fear they will lose their autority, and that their extremist view of Islam will be replaced by a "much more open to Western culture" version of it. 2) They also fear death. Bin Laden wasn't on the planes, he was "masterminding". The high ranked terrorists and extremists are the first to call the other militants to do suicide attacks, but they are the last to show the example. 3) See 1.

Bin Laden can easily find 500 Fanatics that wont fear death.

Oh, for the record, the biggest genocide ever commited was by the Communist regime(s) (USSR, China, Cambodia...) after the Second World War (80+ millions estimated deaths).

Where is it avidly being done right now?

I see where this thread is heading, so I am gonna leave.

[Teek]

What are you saying?That Estonia has a communist/fascist government?Then you are very badly informed.Or the fact that we were part of the Soviet Union once?And what does that matter anyway?

I suppose it doesn't - directly. People growing up with such a system aren't usually ready to give up their beliefs; I'm sure altruistic, self-sacrificing ideals are still the norm. Of course, now I'm acting as if I know the people of Estonia. So, I think I'll drop this line.

Temple Knight I dont think you know much about the world. Those rights you speak of are here in Europe too.

Yes, but to a much lesser extent. Certainly capitalism has spread, and all of its virtues (mainly individual freedoms) but not to the extent America has it. Many countries don't have the freedom of the press we have (such as the BBC) or have nationalized a lot of institutions (health care, for example). Though Europe is better than it was two hundred years ago when America started, it still hasn't rivaled the extreme America (has) taken with capitalism.

Whatever I say wont change your Patriot mind.

See, let me hit up the two main points, here. First, you're saying this as an insult - this is usually a compliment here, because, y'know, it's America. I'm sure that in Eastern Europe this is probably a bad thing. I've said before how proud I was of my country. o_O So, this isn't that insulting. Thank you.

Next, no, you can't change my mind. It's ridiculous how you're trying to fight the Americans - with the wrong weapons. There are a myriad of problems with America (I think it has some statist influences, for example), yet rather than bring up good reasoning, you say "OMG BUSH IS EVAL". OK, I do agree, our foreign policy is bad. However, you should title this thread, "America's Foreign Policy is the Worst in the World"; that, well, I don't entirely agree with it, but I have to say it's going to catch a lot more attention than random Bush-bashing and bringing up the Iraqi war.

You mean the worst?The current administration and whats happening right now makes it the worst in the world at the moment.

Debatable, but at least you threw in the word "currently"; it's a lot more tangible to me now. And you know, I'll agree with you. Currently, we've forgotten an old concept that made us great - self-interest. We're waging pointless wars at the whim of a president with his cowboy pride. That doesn't make America the worst place in the world. Come to the states, Doors. We're still living in luxury, more or less. Hell, even our poor rather enjoy it, here. The products of laissez-faire capitalism.

Your views of Europe are from the stone age.

I've already mentioned Europe - please see: above.


Now, for my own bit:

I'm not telling you it's the best as a patriotic slogan, a sort of "root for the team" ideal. When I was younger and trying to be a regular pseudo-intellectual, I bashed America with the rest of them. I did it because it was the cool thing to do; America caused wars; America is connected to Hell, all the usual things. The glorifying of other societies was common place. It wasn't until I considered the roots of America, and to the extent that it reaches, that I realized that America is the best country in the world. I'd say moral. For objectivity's sake, let's say best. It's the country of the Enlightenment, stemming from reason and rational thought. The founding ideal of America was the principle of individual rights. All other principles it has sanctioned is just the logical byproduct of that principle. In America, one isn't judged on society. Rights aren't given away as handouts that can be revoked.

Now, you might say, but all of this is impractical and idealistic. You might be talking about the here and now - not about some vague ideal. Well, let me explain what I dislike about the American government. The first in the list is - I think - your problem. The rest are sort of based at home, so I can't imagine you care about what is happenning to American citizens.

• America's Foreign Policy. This includes its "policing the world". I think that some people might mean well, to ensure that things such as the Soviet Union never happen again, to ensure radical collectivism in any form won't happen in the future. It still doesn't forgive that we should consider ourselves and not other countries. Your claims that Americans murder Iraqis is somewhat ridiculous - it's war, of course there are casualties. However, claiming that the money could have been spent elsewhere - you're absolutely right. Technically, we had every right to go over there. Any civilized country did. It contained a ruthless dictator with no sense of morality. However, the fact was, regarding our own economy and struggles, going to war with a fascist country wasn't necessary at this time.
• The Increase of Statism. Medicare. Social Security. Public - Everything. Now, health care is being considered; Kerry was winning votes from his speeches of nationalizing that, too. At the rate we've been going since the New Deal of the thirties, it's a surprise we haven't yet seen a Communist (or Fascist) America.
• The Contradictary Morality. People come to this country for life, liberty and the puruit of happiness. They come knowing here they won't be subjected to society as a collective whole; they are individuals, they can achieve whatever they wish to acheive; ours is a free market, free society, free life. It also is a hotbed for Christian Conservatism (really, nowhere else in the world they'd allow to speak the way they do). That's unfortunate. We're constantly getting shoved down the idea that we're imperfect, evil sinners and we should constantly repent - that we should consider God and society before ourselves - that to receive we must give (which, while sounding nice in theory, is out and out contradiction) - that to trust our own reasoning is evil. Consequently - I can choose to be a free individual who trusts his own judgment in a free society, or I can choose to be an evil sinner with an outmoded, unreproachable morality and live for the sake of state and be "my brother's keeper". I choose the former.
  
  Any questions or thoughts? I don't want you to think I'm basing my answers off of some unfounded patriotism. I am a Patriot - just based on my own research, not because Mommy and Daddy told me to be one. xD

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

America's fundamental philosophy, individualism and inalienable rights, is what makes this the best country in the world. If there is a better, more free country ever created, then that will be the best. The rest of the world is ruled under the premise that people are evil.

America is the best country in the world due to those reasons; because we are capitalist (though that is slipping).

Okay.....I got a question. The Patriot Act, doesn't that allow the government to read your mail, tap your phone line, and etc...Without your knowledge. Sure they keep your privacy...The rest of the world? you have a closed mind to the rest of the world, I don't think Canada think people are evil, that was a little too broad, can you explain what you meant? Also Canada, and many other countries are free, so saying that the US is the most is ignoring the other countries of the world. BTW a Central country is better than an extreme left or right. BTW communism is a good idea, but is perverted by man, therefore yes, in certain aspects it's bad, but the same goes for capitalism. BTW it wasn't Temple Knight who said it, but someone said fascist/communist and if they are implying they are the same they are kinda wrong. Yes they are both at the extremes, but communism at the extreme left, while fascism is the extreme right. I watched Fereinheith 9/11 (sp???), I realize it's one man's point of view, but he does bring up good points... Also I like to say, that you are not going to be able to change anyone opinions so don't try to, you can lead a tristy man to water, but you can't make him drink! But, people should try to look at both sides, instead of finding flaws in the other, maybe that's what's wrong with the human species?

[XxSephirothxX]

well i dont know idf this goes with what you guys are talking about or not but i beleive that why america gets attacked and loses a couple thosand or hundred people then go attack the person who attacked us and kill alot more people is because if we didnt do anything america would be gone from all the terrorist attacks by now its basically the goverment attacks the person who attacks us to show that if you attack us were gonna attack you with more force

and america has also helped and is helping countries giving them tons of money to help them and those countries turn around and say bad things about us also when ever we need help do those countries help us? well most of them dont

Not one period....anywhere...
Well, you see, no one really protested the invasion of Afghanistan. I protest the war in Iraq because THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO PROVEN CONNECTION BETWEEN THE EVENTS OF 9/11 AND IRAQ. There are other reasons it was wrong, but that should at least answer your question. Point. Whatever.

[Teek]

Okay.....I got a question. The Patriot Act, doesn't that allow the government to read your mail, tap your phone line, and etc...Without your knowledge. Sure they keep your privacy...The rest of the world? you have a closed mind to the rest of the world, I don't think Canada think people are evil, that was a little too broad, can you explain what you meant? Also Canada, and many other countries are free, so saying that the US is the most is ignoring the other countries of the world. BTW a Central country is better than an extreme left or right. BTW communism is a good idea, but is perverted by man, therefore yes, in certain aspects it's bad, but the same goes for capitalism. BTW it wasn't Temple Knight who said it, but someone said fascist/communist and if they are implying they are the same they are kinda wrong. Yes they are both at the extremes, but communism at the extreme left, while fascism is the extreme right. I watched Fereinheith 9/11 (sp???), I realize it's one man's point of view, but he does bring up good points... Also I like to say, that you are not going to be able to change anyone opinions so don't try to, you can lead a tristy man to water, but you can't make him drink! But, people should try to look at both sides, instead of finding flaws in the other, maybe that's what's wrong with the human species?

The Patiot Act is easily the most insanely evil things that our government has ever tried to pass. Like I said, no one likes the Bush Administration but for Bible Belt, America. Please, understand. The Patriot Act is clearly unconstituional.

I didn't call any other country evil. I think that Canada is very close to America in terms of freedoms, but there is some slight contradictions (its allegience with the royalty of England, for example). But no, if I had to live anywhere else, it'd be Canada. I just said that America is closer to it.

Taking a middle ground is allowing some good, some bad. I don't like that. I like the Nolan Chart to explain this off: communism and fascism rids the world of both personal and economic freedoms; capitalism, the extreme opposite, gives both. Everything else gives or takes from either (even our own Republicans and Democrats). I am a radical for capitalism. As such, I like America, which is the closest to pure capitalism that has ever happened.

And, I have looked at both sides. I just like my side better. =P It's good that you're clearly trying to be a peacemaker, but ultimately, evil and best are two extremes you can't combine. You have to pick one or the other, or try something else entirely.

Not one period....anywhere...
Well, you see, no one really protested the invasion of Afghanistan. I protest the war in Iraq because THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO PROVEN CONNECTION BETWEEN THE EVENTS OF 9/11 AND IRAQ. There are other reasons it was wrong, but that should at least answer your question. Point. Whatever.

Yeah. I supported Afghanistan. I hate Iraq.

[Doors]

Sorry, I just couldnt leave this unanswered.

I suppose it doesn't - directly. People growing up with such a system aren't usually ready to give up their beliefs; I'm sure altruistic, self-sacrificing ideals are still the norm. Of course, now I'm acting as if I know the people of Estonia. So, I think I'll drop this line.

Estonia is a democratic country with nearly the same rights as in the US.

Yes, but to a much lesser extent. Certainly capitalism has spread, and all of its virtues (mainly individual freedoms) but not to the extent America has it. Many countries don't have the freedom of the press we have (such as the BBC) or have nationalized a lot of institutions (health care, for example). Though Europe is better than it was two hundred years ago when America started, it still hasn't rivaled the extreme America (has) taken with capitalism.

Adequate information is better than free press.Most people who hate politicians hate them no matter what and can discuss about them in forums and everyday chatter and clubs.

See, let me hit up the two main points, here. First, you're saying this as an insult - this is usually a compliment here, because, y'know, it's America. I'm sure that in Eastern Europe this is probably a bad thing. I've said before how proud I was of my country. o_O So, this isn't that insulting. Thank you.

I didnt say it as an insult.But if you take it so...Then I dont think its a compliment where you come from.

Next, no, you can't change my mind. It's ridiculous how you're trying to fight the Americans - with the wrong weapons. There are a myriad of problems with America (I think it has some statist influences, for example), yet rather than bring up good reasoning, you say "OMG BUSH IS EVAL". OK, I do agree, our foreign policy is bad. However, you should title this thread, "America's Foreign Policy is the Worst in the World"; that, well, I don't entirely agree with it, but I have to say it's going to catch a lot more attention than random Bush-bashing and bringing up the Iraqi war.

You say: "US ROX U ALL HAHAHAHA" in a little softened way.

Debatable, but at least you threw in the word "currently"; it's a lot more tangible to me now. And you know, I'll agree with you. Currently, we've forgotten an old concept that made us great - self-interest. We're waging pointless wars at the whim of a president with his cowboy pride. That doesn't make America the worst place in the world. Come to the states, Doors. We're still living in luxury, more or less. Hell, even our poor rather enjoy it, here. The products of laissez-faire capitalism.

Did you know that because Americans have a wish to live in "luxury" and the wish to get double everything the world is getting polluted a lot more.
Note:This isnt meant to be offensive, just as a side note.

all the usual things

You just thought that up.

that I realized that America is the best country in the world. I'd say moral. For objectivity's sake, let's say best. It's the country of the Enlightenment, stemming from reason and rational thought.

I think you are going overboard with this.

The founding ideal of America was the principle of individual rights. All other principles it has sanctioned is just the logical byproduct of that principle. In America, one isn't judged on society. Rights aren't given away as handouts that can be revoked.

So you say America is tolerant?I think the people that support that kind of government are liberals and they exist even here, in the faraway "fascist" country Estonia

[theundeadhero]

I think the people that support that kind of government are liberals

A majority of Bush's supporters are conservative.

[edczxcvbnm]

I don't get it.

[Raistlin]

The Patriot Act, doesn't that allow the government to read your mail, tap your phone line, and etc...Without your knowledge.

The worst thing the Patriot Act does is allow law enforcement officers to arrest whoever the hell they want as long as they "suspect" they're terrorists. This directly contradicts the 4th amendment on the Bill of Rights and should've been deemed unconstitutional long ago, and probably will be once Bush is finally gone.

As I said, if this was a "Bush Sucks" thread, I'd be agreeing whole-heartedly. However, don't put one administration as the epitome of America itself, because it's not.

[lordblazer]

The Contradictary Morality. People come to this country for life, liberty and the puruit of happiness. They come knowing here they won't be subjected to society as a collective whole; they are individuals, they can achieve whatever they wish to acheive; ours is a free market, free society, free life. It also is a hotbed for Christian Conservatism (really, nowhere else in the world they'd allow to speak the way they do). That's unfortunate. We're constantly getting shoved down the idea that we're imperfect, evil sinners and we should constantly repent - that we should consider God and society before ourselves - that to receive we must give (which, while sounding nice in theory, is out and out contradiction) - that to trust our own reasoning is evil. Consequently - I can choose to be a free individual who trusts his own judgment in a free society, or I can choose to be an evil sinner with an outmoded, unreproachable morality and live for the sake of state and be "my brother's keeper". I choose the former.

oh great a ing moron bashes christains. I'm christain thats very offensive my good friend real offensive. Only 3% christains actually say that crap everyone else who is christains doesnt tell people they are going to hell heck they say they aren't in a position to tell people were they are going when they die.Yeah yeah im going off topic but you just wanted to bash christainity.
Anyway america is a nice country to live in and such but its filled with alot of ignorance.but so is the rest of the world so dont compain!

This thread is getting out of control/People bashing others religions people bashing people as a whole and sounding stupid.BTW im liberal. a liberal christain yeah.

edit- oh yeah Doors its because the majority in american (caucasins) are somewhat afriad of change and will kill others to keep things the way they are.look at hte civil rights movements in the 1950s.Most of these people weren't even young and they were getting teared gas for peaceful marches and churches bombed during prayers.Heck there was one case were they tried to kill everyone in one church women children men young the elderly.It didnt matter.So you see the reaction the american public had to change.They don't like it.Thats why america pollutes a lot.Also to have a commercial that airs were i live.Well it says "coal electricity its enviromentally friendly."I think to myself (Since when was burning coal friendly to the eviroment).If you look at a statistic of the average human's IQ.Then shoot the average human being isn't even gonna know how to cut on a computer.So that little ad on TV will literally convince them that there is no need for a change in how we use our resources.