The Rinoa-Ultimecia theory.

[Shockwave Pulsar]

(wonders where you were for half the thread).

I think we all agreed that there is not enough evidence to establish this theory is completely true, or false. Read the rest of the thread, from your post i could see you apparently have very little knowledge of the theory. Please don't speak like if you held the Universal truth, post you opinion, there's absolutely no need for putting the things in such a raw way, i personally felt a bit offended.

[Skyblade]

Rinoa was possessed by Ultimecia when Edea was defeated at the end of disc 2. This sent her into a coma (not entirely sure why... Was Rinoa fighting Ultimecia to a standstill, while Edea just surrendered?) until Ultimecia took full possession of Rinoa in outer space in order to free Adel.

Being possessed by one's self is a little freaky, isn't it? Even for this story? I think it would probably have driven Rinoa insane. Even if it hadn't, she DEFINATELY would have told Squall when she was being locked up in the Sorceress Memorial, since she wanted to be locked up because she was afraid she would become a monster. If she KNEW she would become Ultimecia, she'd tell Squall to force him to lock her up, or kill her.

[FallenAngel411]

(wonders where you were for half the thread).

I think we all agreed that there is not enough evidence to establish this theory is completely true, or false. Read the rest of the thread, from your post i could see you apparently have very little knowledge of the theory. Please don't speak like if you held the Universal truth, post you opinion, there's absolutely no need for putting the things in such a raw way, i personally felt a bit offended.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anybody. Just, nothing's really convinced me, except Square itself stating that the theory is false. I'm a person who likes to stay true to the original intentions of the author of a story. I know its frustrating when people start making strange assumptions about things that I write, and when I tell them the truth, they refuse to believe it. Like they can write my story for me, or something. Anyway, that's just a personal thing I have. The whole theory is interesting to think about, but I take Square's final word as the concrete reality.

[Cuchulainn]

Why would she know she would become Ultimacia? Only Ultimacia knows who she is and why would she tell her Past self who she is? That's something only a Bond villain would do. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a believer in U=R but Square do leave a lot open here for either a sequal or to activate and captivate you imagination, if it's for the latter, they sould be commended. It's kinda like an artist being asked what a painting means, they rarely say, it's what it means to you, the viewer, that's important, it can lead you anywhere you chose, as is shown here. I guess the moral is, if you believe that U=R is correct, then it is correct and if you don't, it's not, and no one can take that away from either believer.

Oh and on Big D's post, the messanger sleeping in the Garden i believe to be Ellone.

[Skyblade]

Why would she know she would become Ultimacia? Only Ultimacia knows who she is and why would she tell her Past self who she is? That's something only a Bond villain would do. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a believer in U=R but Square do leave a lot open here for either a sequal or to activate and captivate you imagination, if it's for the latter, they sould be commended. It's kinda like an artist being asked what a painting means, they rarely say, it's what it means to you, the viewer, that's important, it can lead you anywhere you chose, as is shown here. I guess the moral is, if you believe that U=R is correct, then it is correct and if you don't, it's not, and no one can take that away from either believer.

Oh and on Big D's post, the messanger sleeping in the Garden i believe to be Ellone.

Well, I happen to think that most Bond villains have a much firmer grasp on reality than Ultimecia...

Ultimecia told Edea who she was and what she was trying to do. I can see Edea hiding it from Squall and Rinoa, in order to protect them, but why wouldn't Ultimecia tell Rinoa when she possessed her? I'm not even sure Ultimecia would be able to hide it. I don't think that Ultimecia possessed Edea and said "Hi, I'm Ultimecia, an insane sorceress from the future who is possessing you in order to achieve time compression, killing everyone else in existence except me. I hope you don't mind." Ultimecia set out to achieve a goal, and, in doing so, revealed who she was and what she was doing to Edea. Squall and company never tried to alter the actions of Laguna, Kiros, and Ward in the past (even though Ellone wanted them to), and the few times they did suggest something, Laguna was aware of it. They didn't press on and keep pursuing the suspicious lines of thought, so Laguna and friends just ignored it mostly. Ultimecia, on the other hand, was using her chance to visit the past to change things directly, and, in doing so, she revealed herself.

Thoughts, opinions, or comments?

(Oh, and about the Rinoa outliving Squall thing, has anyone here read Lord of the Rings? Arwen loved Aragorn and chose not to go to the Undying Lands in order to be with him. Nevertheless, she still would have survived MUCH longer than Aragorn. But what happened? She outlived him by ONE day. I think Rinoa would pass on her powers and die of a broken heart, rather than live on in despair, and wind up being driven insane and becoming precisely what she feared she would become)

[fire_of_avalon]

Personally, I don't think Greiver was a real GF, I think s/he was a psyche out. Afterall, it does tell you that Greiver is the most powerful GF in Squall's mind. It doesn't give a history of Griever, it's origins, nor does it even tell you whether or not Greiver is even junctioned to Ultimecia. The fact that it doesn't attack like a normal GF, one big attack and then it goes away until the next battle, leads me to believe that it's NOT a GF, just a different manifestation of Ultimecia's power to throw Squall and company off.

So I think all the facts about Greiver as a GF are pretty null, to be honest. It doesn't behave like a GF, so why classify it as a GF? No reason to.

Also, I don't buy the idea that each Sorceress is simply an incarnation in an infinite loop. Like it's been said before, the game itself says no one really knows how many sorceresses there are. Besides, if all the sorceresses ever WERE simply an incarnation of the same being, then those soceresses would have the exact same personalities, which we can see is not true. Adel was an evil being and abused her power. Edea was a good woman who thought she could best Ultimecia's evil, but failed. Rinoa just happened to be there and happened to have the right potential for the transfer of power and possession. Honestly, I believe it was unhappy coincidence that found Rinoa in her position. Yes, she had all the right potential to be a sorceress, but that isn't to say there weren't others in the world who did as well. Rinoa was the only one with such potential close enough to Ultimecia (while she was in possession of Edea), so it only follows that the possessor (Ulty) would immediately take over the closest avaliable host body (Rinoa).

Additionally, it's fallicious to assume that Rinoa inherited any powers from Ultimecia or Edea. Ultimecia never gave up her powers to a decendant, she just used them to control the others. So while Edea had the potential, she was never a "real" sorceress, she just had the benefits of Ultimecia's powers. Rinoa, however, is a bonafide sorceress, in that she inherits her powers from Adel, upon Adel's death. (That's how I saw it anyways). So there are no splits in the chain that would suggest weird things were happening because of time compression or Ulty moving backwards in time to see herself. The line went as follows; unknown sorceress before Adel -> Adel -> Rinoa -> whomever her descendant is.

But going back to a point I was trying to make earlier, Rinoa is GOOD. She was possessed, yes, but in the end she uses her powers for GOOD. She uses them to benefit all of humanity. Rinoa was unselfish throughout the game. Even though she didn't want to, she was prepared to go to the sorceress memorial just to protect the people she cared for. Call me crazy, but I don't think people's primary instincts change just because their loved one dies. Rinoa realized that Squall could be taken from her at any moment, and still thought they should press onward.

Finally, I'd like to point out it's also fallicious to assume that sorceresses have any especial longevity. We know that Edea is in her forties, at least, but we are never told exactly how old Adel is. Regardless of what power they are capable of, sorceresses are NOT immortal, they are still very human. If they were capable of any sort of immortality, there would be no need to pass on their powers, or even feel threatened by other humans, but they ARE, which is why they attempt to enslave them. Point being, as far as we know, sorceresses live for a normal amount of time, just like other human beings, because they are able to DIE, just like other human beings (the proof here, obviously, is both Adel and Ultimecia. Both died.) So, while it is always POSSIBLE that a sorceress has a longer lifespan, I would say it's highly improbable, and a rather weak argument to use in favor of R-U.

Adjacent to that point, I assumed all along Ultimecia's mission to compress time was to become the supreme power of the universe and be God. So how did she know about Ellone; who knows. Maybe Ellone goes on to later expose her talent and goes down in history. Maybe Ultimecia is technologically able to see back in time (as I believe the game suggests she is).

But, like it's been said before, it's only theory. It would be fun to involve some philosopical proofs in the matter, but I am lazy and do not want too.

EDIT: I completely agree with Skyblade in his/her last bit, especially with the Arwen/Aragorn parallel. Even if Rinoa WERE capable of outliving Squall, would she? Even if she WERE capable of owning the whole world, WOULD SHE? I think the answer is no, Rinoa is not innately selfish, she puts others before herself and she's not easily swayed by what goes on outside her. She follows her heart, and I don't think she is mentally capable of trying to destroy the world, even if she did go nuts.

[Shockwave Pulsar]

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anybody. Just, nothing's really convinced me, except Square itself stating that the theory is false. I'm a person who likes to stay true to the original intentions of the author of a story. I know its frustrating when people start making strange assumptions about things that I write, and when I tell them the truth, they refuse to believe it. Like they can write my story for me, or something. Anyway, that's just a personal thing I have. The whole theory is interesting to think about, but I take Square's final word as the concrete reality.

Really? i love when people have different ideas about the things i write. makes me see how different some people think.
Anyways back to the topic
There no such thing, if you read earlier on this thread you'd see that.
I'll quote sir bahamut:
"Square has denied the theory? Oh really? Are you referring to the Square-X article, where this "Jesse" says "I called my friend at Square", who subsequently deny it after calling japan? Please.

"Jesse" didn't provide a shred of evidence that he actually KNEW anyone in Square, or give us any reason to believe he was telling the truth at all.

I could say in counter: "Well, I'm a good personal friend of Sakaguchi, and he said the R=U theory IS true" and you'd have just as much reason to believe me as "Jesse".

So please, enough with this nonsense that Square denied the theory. Square haven't made ANY official statements on ANY theory, and they won't either. After all, all our arguing is good for their business, so why on earth would they put and end to it? The R=U debate is one of the things which has kept FF8 alive and kicking even now, many years after it's release, so do you honestly think they'd want to put an end to it?"
So there's no such thing as a "last word", which means the theory cannot be discarded.

[Skyblade]

Personally, I don't think Greiver was a real GF, I think s/he was a psyche out. Afterall, it does tell you that Greiver is the most powerful GF in Squall's mind. It doesn't give a history of Griever, it's origins, nor does it even tell you whether or not Greiver is even junctioned to Ultimecia. The fact that it doesn't attack like a normal GF, one big attack and then it goes away until the next battle, leads me to believe that it's NOT a GF, just a different manifestation of Ultimecia's power to throw Squall and company off.

So I think all the facts about Greiver as a GF are pretty null, to be honest. It doesn't behave like a GF, so why classify it as a GF? No reason to.

Also, I don't buy the idea that each Sorceress is simply an incarnation in an infinite loop. Like it's been said before, the game itself says no one really knows how many sorceresses there are. Besides, if all the sorceresses ever WERE simply an incarnation of the same being, then those soceresses would have the exact same personalities, which we can see is not true. Adel was an evil being and abused her power. Edea was a good woman who thought she could best Ultimecia's evil, but failed. Rinoa just happened to be there and happened to have the right potential for the transfer of power and possession. Honestly, I believe it was unhappy coincidence that found Rinoa in her position. Yes, she had all the right potential to be a sorceress, but that isn't to say there weren't others in the world who did as well. Rinoa was the only one with such potential close enough to Ultimecia (while she was in possession of Edea), so it only follows that the possessor (Ulty) would immediately take over the closest avaliable host body (Rinoa).

Additionally, it's fallicious to assume that Rinoa inherited any powers from Ultimecia or Edea. Ultimecia never gave up her powers to a decendant, she just used them to control the others. So while Edea had the potential, she was never a "real" sorceress, she just had the benefits of Ultimecia's powers. Rinoa, however, is a bonafide sorceress, in that she inherits her powers from Adel, upon Adel's death. (That's how I saw it anyways). So there are no splits in the chain that would suggest weird things were happening because of time compression or Ulty moving backwards in time to see herself. The line went as follows; unknown sorceress before Adel -> Adel -> Rinoa -> whomever her descendant is.

But going back to a point I was trying to make earlier, Rinoa is GOOD. She was possessed, yes, but in the end she uses her powers for GOOD. She uses them to benefit all of humanity. Rinoa was unselfish throughout the game. Even though she didn't want to, she was prepared to go to the sorceress memorial just to protect the people she cared for. Call me crazy, but I don't think people's primary instincts change just because their loved one dies. Rinoa realized that Squall could be taken from her at any moment, and still thought they should press onward.

Finally, I'd like to point out it's also fallicious to assume that sorceresses have any especial longevity. We know that Edea is in her forties, at least, but we are never told exactly how old Adel is. Regardless of what power they are capable of, sorceresses are NOT immortal, they are still very human. If they were capable of any sort of immortality, there would be no need to pass on their powers, or even feel threatened by other humans, but they ARE, which is why they attempt to enslave them. Point being, as far as we know, sorceresses live for a normal amount of time, just like other human beings, because they are able to DIE, just like other human beings (the proof here, obviously, is both Adel and Ultimecia. Both died.) So, while it is always POSSIBLE that a sorceress has a longer lifespan, I would say it's highly improbable, and a rather weak argument to use in favor of R-U.

Adjacent to that point, I assumed all along Ultimecia's mission to compress time was to become the supreme power of the universe and be God. So how did she know about Ellone; who knows. Maybe Ellone goes on to later expose her talent and goes down in history. Maybe Ultimecia is technologically able to see back in time (as I believe the game suggests she is).

But, like it's been said before, it's only theory. It would be fun to involve some philosopical proofs in the matter, but I am lazy and do not want too.

EDIT: I completely agree with Skyblade in his/her last bit, especially with the Arwen/Aragorn parallel. Even if Rinoa WERE capable of outliving Squall, would she? Even if she WERE capable of owning the whole world, WOULD SHE? I think the answer is no, Rinoa is not innately selfish, she puts others before herself and she's not easily swayed by what goes on outside her. She follows her heart, and I don't think she is mentally capable of trying to destroy the world, even if she did go nuts.

While I really appreciate your arguement (especially the part where you say you agree with me, which isn't something that happens everyday ), I think you are incorrect here. Supposedly, the sorceresses inherited their powers from Hyne, so nothing suggests that there is only one. Edea received the powers of a previous sorceress at age 5, and she accepted Ultimecia's powers upon her death at the end of the game. Edea passed on her powers, without her knowledge (probably due to some manipulation by Ultimecia), to Rinoa. Rinoa then gained Adel's powers upon her death, leaving Rinoa the only known sorceress in the world. (Incidentally, would this mean that she has the power of THREE normal sorceresses? Edea, Adel, and Ultimecia?) Make no mistake though, Edea was a full sorceress from the time she was a child.

Of course, this too would contradict the R=U theory. If Rinoa inherited Ultimecia's powers through Edea, and then had the power of Ultimecia, Edea, and Adel as Ultimecia, when she passed her powers back to Edea, she would be passing on the powers of three sorceresses. Then add Edea's and Adel's again. And rinse and repeat. Since R=U allows paradoxes by its very nature, we are talking about an endless cycle of power multiplication. It would repeat over and over until Ultimecia had enough power to win.

[Rand Al'Tor]

Regarding the 'Rinoa would die after Squall by her own will', remember that Rinoa might want that, but it'd mean saddling someone else with the curse of Sorceress power. And she doesn't seem like the type to do that.

As to the powers multiplying. It does seem a bit weird in the R=U theory (damn time travelling) however, for this to work in a NON R=U context, you'd have to assume that Ultimecia, whoever she is did NOT inherit her power from Rinoa, or else you have the same problem.

Personally, I'm willing to just blame that on 'time travel give sme a headache'

[Skyblade]

Regarding the 'Rinoa would die after Squall by her own will', remember that Rinoa might want that, but it'd mean saddling someone else with the curse of Sorceress power. And she doesn't seem like the type to do that.

As to the powers multiplying. It does seem a bit weird in the R=U theory (damn time travelling) however, for this to work in a NON R=U context, you'd have to assume that Ultimecia, whoever she is did NOT inherit her power from Rinoa, or else you have the same problem.

Personally, I'm willing to just blame that on 'time travel give sme a headache'

Yeah, but if you can just get rid of it and die when you want to, it doesn't seem like much of a curse.

Also, in a non R=U situation, paradoxes can be considered off limits. They are allowed in the R=U situation because the entire R=U situation is a paradox. So if you deny the power multiplication theory, you would also be denying the R=U theory. Generally, paradoxes are considered immpossible. But if you include one (the R=U situation), you would have to include them all (including the power multiplication theory). If you can find some other point to cancel out the PMT (Power Multiplication Theory, I'm going to abbreviate it from now on), that's all well and good. But if you accept the PMT, then victory over Ultimecia is immpossible. And if you don't accept the PMT because of it's paradoxical nature, you also have to deny the R=U theory because of its paradoxical nature.

[Sir Bahamut]

Ultimecia told Edea who she was and what she was trying to do. I can see Edea hiding it from Squall and Rinoa, in order to protect them, but why wouldn't Ultimecia tell Rinoa when she possessed her?

Rinoas was possessed in a different manner, that much is clear. When we see Edea possessed, she looks perfectly normal, not possessed. When Rinoa is possessed she turns into some freaky, weirdly transparent, glowing mindless creature. So even if Ultimecia couldn't hide her thoughts Rinoa would probably never know.

Furthermore, if Ultimecia WAS as deranged as the theory claims, she wouldn't even remember being Rinoa, let alone "becoming" Ultimecia.

Personally, I don't think Greiver was a real GF, I think s/he was a psyche out. Afterall, it does tell you that Greiver is the most powerful GF in Squall's mind. It doesn't give a history of Griever, it's origins, nor does it even tell you whether or not Greiver is even junctioned to Ultimecia. The fact that it doesn't attack like a normal GF, one big attack and then it goes away until the next battle, leads me to believe that it's NOT a GF, just a different manifestation of Ultimecia's power to throw Squall and company off.

So I think all the facts about Greiver as a GF are pretty null, to be honest. It doesn't behave like a GF, so why classify it as a GF? No reason to.

Girever IS a GF. That's made clear also in the japanese version. This is what it says to be precise:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment you. Fufu.

After fighting Griever for a while:

Ultimecia: Fufu. Are your memories fading to nothing? This is not the
dreadfulness of the true GF. The GF's true ferocity, let me instruct you
[in it]! That power, show it to them! Griever!

---

Of course, from that there, and the scan info from Squall, it seems obvious that Ultimecia created Griever, the GF, right there and then based on Squalls emotions and thoughts. So you're right that in the end, Griever doesn't point towards the theory or against it.

--------------


Ok, several other topics were mentioned, including sorceress lifespan, and the timeloop in conjunction with the cycling of powers. Well, I wrote an FAQ precisely on those things(and some other stuff), so yet again I'd refer you to it:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/game/197343.html

It's the "Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ" in the FAQ list(alpahbetically listed).
From there you can gather my view on things, and comment subsequently. I'd very much appreciate it if you could read it, and give feedback and comments.

[Skyblade]

Yes, I did read it. It was interesting, but much more close minded than I expected. You basically said that because the PMT can't work out logically in the R=U situation, you should ignore it. Great arguement there, buddy. Tell me, in your "unchanging time" situation, what determines the "set in stone" events? If the past can't be changed, then Ultimecia wouldn't have been able to come back and give Edea her powers in the first place. Arguing that time can't be changed by having the time travel events that we know occur be "fated" is stupid. Why would those time travelling events be allowed (and, in fact, necessary), when no others are? Very poor logic, in my humble opinion. We KNOW the past can be changed, because we've seen it happen! Ultimecia giving her powers to Edea was changing the past. For one thing, Edea never mentioned that when you spoke to her about her powers. Rather important detail to leave out, isn't it? But if Ultimecia is from time period "B", then giving her powers to someone in time period "A" is changing the past! I find the idea that her giving her powers away was "pre-destined" ridiculous. You'll be amazed at how many things can be explained by saying "it's fate". It's fate that this rock will fall to the ground when I let go of it... What do you know? I'm right! "Fate" is the most idiotic explanation out there. Yes, when you explain things as happening because of a "pre-determined set of events that we can have no influence on", it's easy as hell to explain anything. A theory arguing that it is that way because that is the way the game was programmed would get more praise from me than your claim that "time is set in stone". Denying logic does not solve an arguement. It just groups you in with those people who say "Rinoa is Ultimecia. Period".

Actually, Edea does mention gaining the powers of a sorcerress on the verge of death 13 years before the game takes place, but I am curious as to why she wouldn't tell Squall it was Ultimecia.

[Sir Bahamut]

You basically said that because the PMT can't work out logically in the R=U situation, you should ignore it.

I said nothing of the sort. The section on time, including the PMT bit was completely seperate from the R=U theory. All I said on the "PMT" bit was that it couldn't logically tell us if time was unchanging or not. I really don't know where you're pulling the R=U theory in from, because I don't mention that at all in that section.

Tell me, in your "unchanging time" situation, what determines the "set in stone" events?

I don't understand the question. Are you asking me who/what created time in FF8? That seems a bit demanding, don't you think?

If the past can't be changed, then Ultimecia wouldn't have been able to come back and give Edea her powers in the first place.

Flawed. If time was set in stone, Edea would have ALWAYS received her powers from Ultimecia. It's an infinite loop, as I explained. So nothings changing when she gives her her powers. You clearly missed that point in my FAQ.

Arguing that time can't be changed by having the time travel events that we know occur be "fated" is stupid. Why would those time travelling events be allowed (and, in fact, necessary), when no others are?

Stupid? Why would it be stupid when the game directly implies that fate exists in FF8? If you missed where I got that from you'll have to reread it. As for your second question, Iyou're obviously confused. I never said timetravel at other points wasn't allowed. Please don't put words in my mouth.

We KNOW the past can be changed, because we've seen it happen! Ultimecia giving her powers to Edea was changing the past. For one thing, Edea never mentioned that when you spoke to her about her powers. Rather important detail to leave out, isn't it? But if Ultimecia is from time period "B", then giving her powers to someone in time period "A" is changing the past!

We don't "KNOW" the past can be changed. In fact, Square tell us the opposite through Ellone. She literally says "You can't change the past". Quite unambigious don't you think? Or did you miss that bit in my FAQ maybe?

I didn't "leave that out", I was perfectly aware of it. What I did was explain why time would be completely set in stone, and why the games makes perfect sense based on that assumption. Ultimecia can pass on her powers to Edea and not change the past, as long as that was part of the events set in stone, which it obviously would be. So the unchanging time explains the power transfer AND includes what the game tell us about not being able to change the past.

I find the idea that her giving her powers away was "pre-destined" ridiculous.

And I find the idea that you would think Ellone was not telling the truth as ridiculous. What's your point?

"Fate" is the most idiotic explanation out there.

Yet the game implies that fate exists repeatedly. Again, did you decide to systematically ignore those bits of my FAQ?

Denying logic does not solve an arguement. It just groups you in with those people who say "Rinoa is Ultimecia. Period".

Firstly, when did I deny logic? Please do point out any logical fallacies you may find, but don't accuse me of such things without telling me what I've done wrong.

Secondly, you're obviously confused. I never used the unchanging time to back up the R=U theory. In fact, in the section on R=U(which I doubt you even read based on your post) explains my take on the R=U theory, and I even say I don't find it particularly plausible, and I also state repeatedly that it can't be proven and that it's all speculation.'

To sum up, I really think you should have read the FAQ properly before being so sharp and accusing. It's in any case obvious that you either only skimmed through it, or didn't understand a word.

[Rini]

Agreed. Though, if someone feels like looking into it outside of the Forum, FanFiction.net has an absolutely OUTSTANDING Fic on it called Mirrorfeather ( http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2197713/1/ ). Tis a quick, 3 chap read and provides a very plausible and detailed account of how R=U could hace come to be. I myself choose to neither support or deny. there are much more aggravating things to be argued.

Wheesh. That's really scientific.. But good fiction, nonetheless. Loved it.

I'm not saying anything about the U=R / R=U theory, because I don't really know if I want to believe it or not, even if it is proven not to be true by facts from the game itself :P
But it's always lovely to speculate.

[fire_of_avalon]

While I really appreciate your arguement (especially the part where you say you agree with me, which isn't something that happens everyday ), I think you are incorrect here. Supposedly, the sorceresses inherited their powers from Hyne, so nothing suggests that there is only one. Edea received the powers of a previous sorceress at age 5, and she accepted Ultimecia's powers upon her death at the end of the game. Edea passed on her powers, without her knowledge (probably due to some manipulation by Ultimecia), to Rinoa. Rinoa then gained Adel's powers upon her death, leaving Rinoa the only known sorceress in the world. (Incidentally, would this mean that she has the power of THREE normal sorceresses? Edea, Adel, and Ultimecia?) Make no mistake though, Edea was a full sorceress from the time she was a child.

Of course, this too would contradict the R=U theory. If Rinoa inherited Ultimecia's powers through Edea, and then had the power of Ultimecia, Edea, and Adel as Ultimecia, when she passed her powers back to Edea, she would be passing on the powers of three sorceresses. Then add Edea's and Adel's again. And rinse and repeat. Since R=U allows paradoxes by its very nature, we are talking about an endless cycle of power multiplication. It would repeat over and over until Ultimecia had enough power to win.

I'm saying Rinoa NEVER inherited Ulty's power, she only inherited Adel's. I think. That's what I meant to say.

I forgot about Edea. Oopsie.

I need to play the game again, to sort out all the sorceressy bits, but I think my other arguments are gold. Gold I say!

EDIT:

Girever IS a GF. That's made clear also in the japanese version. This is what it says to be precise:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment you. Fufu.

After fighting Griever for a while:

Ultimecia: Fufu. Are your memories fading to nothing? This is not the
dreadfulness of the true GF. The GF's true ferocity, let me instruct you
[in it]! That power, show it to them! Griever!

Just because Ulty SAYS it's a GF doesn't mean anything. She made this monster right before them based on what Squall felt true power was. While I don't think the battle was an illusion, I DO think Greiver was a manifestation brought about by Ulty reading Squall's mind. The fact that Greiver's attack, Shockwave Pulsar, is an attack used by one of YOUR ALLIES (Quistis's Blue Magic) further goes to show that Greiver is NOT a GF. Can Quistis's Blue Magic do any OTHER GF attacks, nopers it can't. Ergo, Greiver isn't a GF, no matter what Ulty tells you.