Now, that IF Rinoa = Utimecia, but if not?
And if they kill Rinoa now, she has to pass her sorcerer power to other girl. Then that other girl will be the next Ultimecia. And if they kill that other girl as well, the power will move to other girl then other girl then other girl and in conclusion, they have to kill all the girls in their world.
Problem is, can the power goes to a man?
Can the power got to a man? Good question. Hyne(the original sorceress) is referred to as He, but this may be as irrelevant as God in the Bible being called "He". Of course, Hyne is also called the first sorcerESS, so that seems a bit contradicting.
Anyway, it seems likely that only a woman can take the powers. That seems to be what's normal in any case.
But surely, if they killed Rinoa, Ultimecia would never come back. Resulting in a peaceful existence. Resulting in none of it ever happening.
Or not, it's confusing me.
Well, if they COULD kill Rinoa, that would be the case. But as I've been arguing lately, you can't change time in FF8. That means that nothing they do in their own time will change the fact that Ultimecia will rise to power in the future. In fact, what they do will be the very casue of her rise.
But as I said, they'd never have any idea, but theoretically speaking, you're right.
I think you've forgotten, Sir, that Rinoa gleaned information from Ultimecia's mind while being possessed the same as Edea did:Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut
Rinoa
"...I should tell you this before I go."
"I was possessed out in space. There was a sorceress inside me."
"Ultimecia, a sorceress from the future. She's trying to achieve time
compression."
"She's the only one who would be able to exist in such a world. She, and no
other."
"As long as I'm free, she'll continue to use me to accomplish her goal."
To Sir Bahamut on the nature of time being set in stone: to say that time is set in stone really is fallacious. While Ultimecia going into the past is a natural part of the time that exists and it would not exist without her doing so, in order for the current timeline to be in place (the one in which there is a loop that involves Ultimecia going to the past), there must have been a time in which this didn't occur. In other words, an original timeline in which no one ever went back. One can't have someone going to the past from the future until the future has already come to be at least once.
To Skyblade on the nature of fate in the game: Fate is most certainly present in Final Fantasy VIII. It's constantly emphasized from the very beginning. The name of the song that is played in the game's openeing is "Liberi Fatali." That is Latin for "Fated Children."
Further, when Ultimecia battles SeeD in Galbadia Garden, she says "So the time has come. You're the legendary SeeD destined to face me?"
Also, take note that Ultimecia's Castle is located above the very Orphanage where Ultimecia will die in her own future, but the world's past, this Orphanage also being where the children who will defeat her were raised.
The name of the opening song alone should be enough to point out that fate was involved: Squall and the others were destined to defeat Ultimecia. They were raised for it, trained for it, and one might argue born for it. That was inarguably fate.
For instance, Squall and Rinoa being saved from death in outer space when the Ragnarok happened to float by would be considered Deus ex Machina by most, but they just weren't meant to die. When it's fate, it's not Deus ex Machina. Of all the thousands of square miles around the Planet that the Ragnarok could have floated past, its trajectory from the time it was sent into space had it set to where it would float by Squall and Rinoa at just that moment.
I'm sorry to ruin the game for you, but the entire game works off of the concept of fate.
If Rinoa were Ultimecia and they learned this and then killed Rinoa, Rinoa would never become Ultimecia and never give the others reason to kill her, thus, they wouldn't have killed her, and, thus, Ultimecia would rise to power the same as she had before, instituting a perpetual loop of "Ultimecia rises to power, Rinoa is killed, Ultimecia doesn't rise to power, Rinoa isn't killed, Ultimecia rises to power, etc."
As has been pointed out in this topic several times, it's impossible to prove or disprove something like this (unlike the matter of Hojo being Sephiroth's father), but varying degrees of plausibility or the lack thereof can be established.
From my own observations and conversations with many folks, including a conversation in the past with Sir Bahamut, I have compiled a document that I feel shows that while there is still a possibility toward Rinoa being Ultimecia, the matter lacks plausibility. In other words, canon of what has been established is that she isn't, while the possibility remained outside of canon due to too little support within the framework of the game itself:
(Warning: It's a bit long.)
Document Sections:
1) Statement of Purpose
2) The Theory
3) The Response
4) Things That Might Be Used To Argue Against The Theory, But Which Really Don't Contradict It
5) Conclusion
6) Acknowledgements
-Statement of Purpose-
There are several aspects of the game FFVIII that have led many to believe that Rinoa may, perhaps, one day become the Sorceress who rules the future: Ultimecia. I will attempt to take some of the more popular aspects of this theory and explain why these aspects of the game do not necessarily indicate that to be the case from my own interpretations (faulty, though they may be) and based on conversations I have had on the matter of the course of several years, particularly with one known as Sir Bahamut. I have also taken some quotes from his thesis (seen here:) to help me convey the argument of this thesis. Ultimately, I wish to show that while the theory is possible -- as anything never definitively stated or contradicted is -- it isn't plausible.Code:http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/final_fantasy_viii_time_ultimecia.txt
-The Theory-
Sorceresses and Immortality:
As demonstrated by Edea, Sorceresses do not age so long as they have the Sorceress Power. They reach full physical maturity but do not experience the effects of aging. Note how she looks much younger than her husband Cid. Due to this, Rinoa will outlive all of her friends and her love, Squall, and will then be left without them in a world that may fear and hate her due to her being a Sorceress. Without them, she will be without the affection that she thrives upon and will be forced to face oppression alone, without her Knight, resulting in her becoming insane.
While her own father is likely in line to become the President of Galbadia in the present and Squall's father is already the President of Esthar, they will not live forever and those who would not be so sympathetic toward Rinoa may succeed them. Further, they -- and possibly SeeD as well -- would be inclined to keep a close eye on her after she was rendered grief-stricken with losing her friends and her love -- who was also her Knight, her focal point of stability.
It would be akin to being eternally stuck in the moment of death, continuously experiencing the pain of the moment. It's only to be expected that a Sorceress would likely give up their powers so that they could die when in such a situation, as Adel and the 11 Sorceresses encountered as SeeD traveled to the future might have done.
A couple of other points to contest this aspect of the theory are that Adel seeking a successor suggests that Sorceresses did not have eternal life, and that Ultimecia's hair being grey indicates that she was experiencing the effects of aging, something that wouldn't take place were she immortal.
As for the differences in Ultimecia and Rinoa's hair, Ultimecia was able to change the length of Edea's hair within seconds, and Adel and the Sorceresses encountered as Squall, Rinoa, and the others passed through Time Compression all bear physical distinctions that are much greater changes from "normal" bodies than simply having a different hair color from what they might have once had.
Ultimecia's Words During The Final Battle:
During the final battle with Ultimecia, her words illustrate that Rinoa believes that the things one cares about will slip away from them inevitably, as Squall and her friends did:
"Reflect on your..."
"Childhood..."
"Your sensation..."
"Your words..."
"Your emotions..."
"Time..."
"It will not wait..."
"No matter..."
"...how hard you hold on."
"It escapes you..."
Time Compression:
Rinoa wanted to use Time Compression to control time and allow her to meet Squall again and be with him. Evidence to support this comes from Rinoa's statement while onboard the Ragnarok with Squall, before she was taken into custody by Esthar:
While it could be argued that Ultimecia's goal had nothing to do with meeting with Squall or making the moment on the Ragnarok stand still (all time up to at least the point of Adel's death was apparently caught in the Time Compression wave, which would include the moment on the Ragnarok, only its state of present in the Time Compressed Worl was when it was it the Kashkabald Desert, after Squall and Rinoa's moment together), this should be considered:I don't want the future. I want the present to stand still. I just want to stay here with you...
Also, because Rinoa would have gone mad, or possibly due to GF-use, she may no longer remember her previous desire to use Time Compression to meet Squall.
The Location of Ultimecia's Castle:
This ties in with the previous aspect, Ultimecia's desire -- subconscious or otherwise -- to meet Squall also being illustrated by her having her Castle anchored near the Orphanage, which had the flower field behind it where she and Squall had promised to meet.
Rinoa And Possible Amnesia:
In regard to Rinoa's insanity and the possibility of her suffering amnesia, consider this:
Also, we can be certain that Ultimecia at least had some contact with a GF before Griever, as Tiamat was a GF she had taken control of:
(From when using Scan on Tiamat.)
Tiamat
Used to be a GF. Became a monster under Ultimecia's power. Its
Dark Flare destroys all enemies.
The Possible Origin Of Ultimecia's Name:
End quote.
Legend also goes that every day, Artemisia would mix some of his ashes into a drink and drink it.
Consider then that Ultimecia is called "Artemisia" in some translations (German for instance). In history, Artemisia and Mausolus were also brother and sister. In the game, Rinoa and Squall are as close to sister and brother as possible without involving incest, something Square would obviously never do. Laguna, Squalls father, and Julia, Rinoas mother were deeply in love, yet were torn apart. Was this Squares way of hinting at a very close connection, almost sibling-like? Also in history, Artemisia is attacked while she builds the tomb, yet she, despite being greatly outnumbered, kills all the attacking enemies. Ultimecia single-handedly takes out all the SeeDs who attack her.
Rinoa cannot handle life without her Knight and husband, to whom she is completely devoted and dependant of, and she ‘becomes’ Artemisia, the grieving wife. In the real life story, Artemisia goes rather insane, what with spending her entire life building his tomb. We all know what Artemisia did in the game.
Ultimecia's And Rinoa's Faces:
During the game's ending FMV, Ultimecia's face flashes over Rinoa's and she also bears quite a resemblance to Rinoa. While Edea, Zell, and Seifer's faces also flash over Rinoa's during that scene (Edea's doing so first and a total of five times even, whereas Ultimecia's does so only three times), there's a somewhat greater emphasis on those moments when Ultimecia's face does so.
As for differences in Rinoa and Ultimecia's bodies (their shoulder-width and breast-sizes, for example), again, Ultimecia was able to change the length of Edea's hair within seconds, and Adel and the other Sorceresses encountered in the Time Compression wave all bear physical aspects that are much greater distinctions from what one would expect with "normal" bodies.
The Sorceresses' Wings:
In the opening FMV, Rinoa is shown at one point emerging from a group of white feathers, the same color as the feathers on her wings. She's later shown emerging from a group of black feathers, the same color as the feathers of Ultimecia's wings. Ultimecia is the only Sorceress aside from Rinoa to be shown to have wings. This is an indication of who Rinoa will become.
Griever:
Squall carries a ring with a lion engraved upon it, the ring's name being "Griever." This is also the name of the GF that Ultimecia Summons during the final battle of the game and which she Junctions herself to during the course of the battle. During Final Fantasy VIII, Squall gives this ring to Rinoa. Perhaps Griever was contained within the ring the same as Doomtrain was contained within the Solomon Ring. Or perhaps it was even a creature that Rinoa herself created in honor of Squall.
-The Response-
There's no strong indication that Sorceresses do not age. While Edea says in the ending that they cannot die in peace until they have given up their powers, we do not know that this means that they cannot die at all so long as they have their powers.
It should also be noted that it's not known how old Edea was when taking care of Squall and the others when they were 4 to 5 years old. If she was merely a teenager herself at the time, she may well be no older than 30 years old in the game's present, in which case there would be no reason that she should be showing obvious effects of aging. Further, it may be that she simply is younger than Cid.
The point about the Sorceress' bodies goading them to release their powers still requires the pre-conceived assumption that Sorceresses do not age, something which has yet to be soundly substantiated. It also requires assuming that none of the 13 Sorceresses that SeeD fights and kills during the course of Final Fantasy VIII would have had the will power to fight against their pain long enough to heal if they could have stayed alive as long as they wished.
As for Ultimecia's final words, it should be noted that Ultimecia seems to speak in terms of urgency when seeking to pass her powers on to Edea:
According to the one who translated the Japanese dialogue quoted above, she spoke in the imperative in that version of the game, as well, with it being obvious even without that being stated: "I cannot yet... allow myself to....fade away." I find it odd that the one doing the translating drew the conclusion that it was impossible for a Sorceress to die while still in possession of their powers immediately after Ultimecia has just stated that she can't allow herself to die yet in the imperative, implying it's something she wishes to avoid. Seeing as how she wishes to avoid dying while in possession of her powers, that's a good indicator that it's possible for her to do so.I...can't...disappear yet.
Something to note about Japanese is that it doesn't always translate literally into English and that context must be established. In terms of context, "A sorceress cannot die while still holding on to the sorceress' power" could very well mean "In order to die in peace, a sorceress must be free of all her powers." In fact, taking into account that Ultimecia was speaking in the imperative and that the English crews translating Final Fantasy VIII would have had the benefit of being able to work with the Japanese developers to establish context (something often done when dubbing Anime), it would be illogical to assume that Ultimecia was simply stating this to convey that Sorceresses can live forever so long as they have the Sorceress Power.
With Ultimecia speaking in the imperative, her line would more likely mean something to the effect of "I must not die before I give up my powers" rather than "I can't die because my powers prevent me from doing so."
In other words, the scene seems to be indicating that Ultimecia fears dying before she can give up her powers, making the concept possibly similar to the Star Wars concept of dying in the Dark Side of the Force, as the Dark Jedi feared the fate that would await them should they die under such circumstances; according to Star Wars: Empire's End, to die while in the Dark Side of the Force is to be doomed to "...perpetual madness... as if to live forever like an open wound, experiencing terror without respite." It goes on to say that "That is a fate [Emperor] Palpatine wants to postpone, at all costs." Considering that the Final Fantasy developers are fans of Star Wars and have often taken inspiration from it, it seems likely to me that they might have had a similar concept in mind in regard to the Sorceress Power. In any event, Ultimecia's statement reflects an imperative, even desperate defiance of dying while still in possession of her powers, suggesting that she could die while she still had them.
Of course, that might leave the possibility that under normal cirumstances (i.e. not getting the hell kicked out of her), Ultimecia could have lived forever, having eternal life unless dealt a mortal wound, such as is the case with Elves in Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings or Vampires in an abundant number of tales.
As for the matter of Hyne's longevity possibly being indicative of Sorceresses being ageless, it's an interesting point and there's little that can be said to disprove the possibility in this regard, yet there is also nothing that necessarily supports it either, however. Hyne having immortality is not a guarantee that the Sorceresses did, as well.
It would still seem that the game might give an indication that Sorceresses are mortal in that Adel was seeking an heir:
The belief that it was in the event of an assassination attempt requires assuming a few things:Laguna
"What the heck has he done with his life? Don't you wonder?"
"When Ellone was about 2, there was a massive hunt for girls in Esthar."
"Esthar soldiers came to Winhill and Elle's parents resisted. They were
killed on the spot."
"The massive hunt was to find the successor for Esthar's ruler, Sorceress
Adel."
"Ellone was raised by Raine who lived next door. And I came to know her."
"Then there was another massive hunt for a successor in Esthar again."
"Elle was taken away, even though I was there..."
"It's the most painful episode of my life."
"So I rescued her and sent her off to Winhill. Shortly after that, Raine
died."
"And Ellone was sent straight to an orphanage."
1) That Adel wouldn't be wounded so badly by the assassination that her body forced her to give up her powers before she could get close to Ellone (if you believe in that concept) or that she wouldn't have simply died instantly while not close to Ellone (if you don't believe in the concept of the Sorceresses living as long as they wish or until their bodies force them to give up their powers),
2) That the Sorceress Powers would go to Ellone in the first place,
&
3) That Ellone would accept the powers in the event that it was required she do so.
Granted, these things also apply in the event that she intended to prepare Ellone to take her powers as she sensed her own mortality being nearly realized through natural causes, but it's far more likely for her to have been in the position to pass on her powers without being so greatly hindered if she intended to do so when she sensed her natural death coming near than if she intended to in the event that she received a mortal wound that would incite her body to begin goading her to accept death immediately. With this in mind, it's not reasonable to assume that Adel intended to have Ellone succeed her in the event of an assassination.
The point concerning Ultimecia's hair not being indicative of aging is a good one, however.
To conclude the matter of Sorceress immortality, Edea is not a valid source of an indication that Sorceresses may be ageless due to her possibly being younger than her husband and still quite a young woman herself. It also cannot be reasonably supported that Sorceresses have life so long as they have their powers. However, the idea alone that Sorceresses are ageless cannot be disproven, and Ultimecia's hair being grey is not necessarily indicative of aging, as all Sorceresses aside from Rinoa display altered anatomy -- at least from what would be "normal" -- of some sort.
This aspect of the theory is really not well-supported or conclusively-opposed, but with Adel seeking an heir and there being no reasonable indication that she would have intended this to be in the event of an assassination, it seems more probable that the Sorceresses are subject to aging and natural death, but, admittedly, still not strongly probable. This aspect is best regarded as neutral, but if it were to lean in favor of being for or against the possibility, the burden of reasonable assumption would lay more heavily on those seeking to promote the concept.
As for the matter of Utlimecia's final lines during the battle with her, the first five lines are likely simply making reference to the game's concept of the "Fated Children" (also the name of the game's opening song, as "Liberi Fatali" is Latin for "Fated Children"), those destined to face Ultimecia in battle:
(In Galbadia Garden.)
Also note that the children were raised and trained to become SeeDs and combat Sorceresses. This battle was what their entire lives had been leading them to. The game's entire story involves pre-destination (fate).Sorceress Edea
"So the time has come. You're the legendary SeeD destined to face me?"
Squall
(What is she talking about?)
While it could, perhaps, be inferred that the last five lines were making reference to the inevitability of losing that which is precious, seeing as how Ultimecia was absorbing all existance into herself during the battle with her, it's just as likely -- if not moreso -- that she was making a statement concerning the inevitability of SeeD's defeat and her victory, rather than some philosophical statement concerning the passage of time and loss. This aspect of the argument does nothing in favor of the theory on its own and would requite standing alongside a good deal of other support to be cosidered a valid piece of support itself.
In regard to Ultimecia's goal, it having anything to do with Squall has no reasonable connection to the goal the game tells us Ultimecia had:
(The Tutorial's description of Time Compression.)
Note what she says before the final battle:Time Compression
A complete mystery. Various states of "present" are believed to become
compressed. Sorceress' power from many generations may cross over to
give 1 sorceress great strength. No one knows what effect this may have
on regular human beings.
(Bolded for emphasis.)"Your vain krusade ends here, SeeDs."
"The price for your meddling is death beyond death."
"I shall send you to a dimension beyond your imagining."
"There, I will reign, and you will be my slaves for eternity.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA."
Further, note what is said when using Scan on Ultimecia's first form during the final battle:
Finally, take not of what is said when using Scan on her final form in the void of nothingness:Ultimecia
A sorceress trying to change the world by compressing time and
taking power from all sorceresses.
Based on what we're shown and told, it would only seem to indicate that Ultimecia desired to rule everything, and possibly rewrite creation with herself as God. To conclude that her goal had something to do with Squall would only apply if one had already accepted Rinoa as being Ultimecia and was using backwards reasoning to determine a purpose for using Time Compression. In other words, it would be using the conclusion as support for the evidence, something that doesn't work when trying to support the conclusion itself.Ultimecia
Ultimecia, transformed to absorb all time and space. Absorbing
all existence as we speak.
While it's true that Ultimecia would have full control over time and Rinoa's words may have indicated a desire for time to suit her wishes, again, Ultimecia expresses only a desire to have power and rule. There's no indication given that she cares about Squall in any capacity, nor does she ever so much as express recognition toward him. Were Rinoa to have gone insane because of losing Squall and previously have been trying to control time to get back to him, even if she had forgotten this, it's reasonable to expect that she would at least show recognition toward him -- if not affection -- in some way, rather than simply trying to kill him, and possibly have hinted in some way -- even if she didn't understand it herself -- that she had been seeking someone else in the past aside from just Ellone. For that matter, her declaration to the SeeDs that they would be her slaves was addressed to them as a group, which would include Squall. Further, if he falls during the battle with her, he can be absorbed into time the same as the rest of the party.
To conclude this matter, Ultimecia's goal is never indicated to have possibly had anything to do with Squall nor does she ever express any recognition toward him, despite the loss of him supposedly being what sent her down the road to insanity. For this aspect to be of any indication toward Rinoa being Ultimecia, one would have already had to have accepted the concept and, thus, be working backwards in their reasoning.
As for the matter of the location of Ultimecia's castle, consider that Ultimecia hated SeeDs -- whom she knew were destined to face her in battle one day ("You're the legendary SeeD destined to face me?") -- and that she had slaughtered them shortly before casting the Time Compression Spell, made evident by their bodies being scattered across the beach behind Edea's House:
Linkage.
They don't appear to have been dead for long, so it's not as though Ultimecia built the Castle, killed the SeeDs and then parked it there many years before with the intention of it remaining there forever. Also, the bloody thing floats. Why build a floating castle to begin with if you're going to park it in one spot?
The dead bodies of those SeeDs are a testament to Ultimecia's reason for anchoring the castle there. It makes much more sense -- especially in light of Ultimecia's hatred of the SeeDs and the obvious short amount of time that those SeeDs had been dead -- to conclude that Ultimecia parked the Castle there and slaughtered the remaining SeeDs to settle a grudge before casting Time Compression.
The Castle being located above where the SeeDs had been brought together and raised for a time also allows for another point of emphasis on the Fated Children concept, as did the Orphanage being Squall and the others' point of focus when passing through the Time Compression wave in an attempt to arrive in Ultimecia's era.
As was the case with the overall concept of Ultimecia seeking to use Time Compression to meet Squall, this on its own doesn't serve as any evidence toward supporting the concept that Rinoa is Ultimecia, and would only apply if one had already accepted the concept and was using backwards reasoning.
We're not given reason to believe that Rinoa had a need -- or desire -- to continue using GFs after the defeat of Ultimecia. To assume she did is unsupported assumption. Granted, we know that Ultimecia had some possible GF usage due to Tiamat being a monster under her control within her castle, but that's not indicative of Rinoa's GF usage, nor do we know if there had been any other GFs that Ultimecia even might have used. Unless she actually Junctioned herself to Tiamat -- something we can't even be sure of -- and possibly more GFs than just him, we don't know that she would have suffered any memory loss, really.
Again, Ultimecia having control of Tiamat only tells us that Ultimecia had been having contact with at least one GF before she fought SeeD in her era. That conveys nothing of Rinoa's GF usage unless one has already accepted that Rinoa is Ultimecia and is, again, using backwards reasoning.
Once more, I must reiterate that if losing Squall was the main reason for Rinoa going insane, it stands to reason that we would have seen some measure of recognition toward him on Ultimecia's part. Instead, she displays no recognition or affection toward him, merely tries to kill him, and tends to address SeeD as a whole.
Moving on to the matter of Ultimecia's name and it possibly being a derivation of "Artemisia" and with Ultimecia's actions possibly reflecting a Rinoa who "became" Artemisia, while it's certainly an interesting bit of information, I don't think that's a very strong bit of support when debating in terms of the game itself and it's better to stick with just the matters within the game itself when doing so, I've learned. For instance, no matter how tempting it might be when arguing that JENOVA was controlling Sephiroth in FFVII, pointing out that JENOVA means "New God" and that the Sephiroth is the Kabbalistic term for the interrelated divine emanations of God which will lead back to him -- thus, it being a tool of God -- is not a practical point to make simply because the names themselves might have been as deep as the inspiration went, with there being no higher allegory intended.
By the way, the castle that Ultimecia has erected in no way resembles the Mausoleum of Mausolus:
Linkage.
In fact, it seems to be in a condition quite the opposite of how Artemisia treated the tomb of her husband. Whereas she was trying to achieve perfection with it and would have abhorred the idea of it bearing any flaws, Ultimecia's Castle is in great disarray and has obviously long before fallen into decay.
However, it's still interesting enough to not be totally disregarded and is a fair enough point for consideration if there is other evidence to support the notion.
Also -- and not that this is terribly, if at all, relevant -- we don't know that the SeeDs attacked Ultimecia first. The Orphanage was likely their base of operations or one of them, at least.
Anyway, this matter is some interesting information that's not necessarily relevant on its own, but could possibly serve to accentuate other evidence if it is present.
In regard to Ultimecia's appearance in the ending FMV, there's really not a lot to indicate that the appearance of Ultimecia's face was not meant to bear any greater significance than when Edea's face appeared, but it's not very compelling on its own, or even with the Artemisia information. As for a resemblance between Ultimecia and Rinoa, it should be noted that one can compare against or impose the faces of Selphie, Ellone, and Edea over Rinoa's, and all bear strong resemblances to her, as well. In a game in which all characters are designed by the same Person, and especially with it being a character designer known for making his Female characters look similar to one another -- and also when the same actor did the facial modeling for more than one of these characters -- there are going to be resemblances in their facial features, something which must be kept in mind as their similarities are not necessarily indicative of there being an indication of some connection between the characters, either as them being related to one another, or as being the same Person:
Linkage to a picture of Rinoa.
Linkage to a picture of Edea.
Linkage to a picture of Selphie.
Linkage to a picture of Ellone.
A good point is made, however, in regard to the differences in Ultimecia and Rinoa's bodies alone not being enough to disregard the possibility of there being a connection between the two.
As for the matter of the ending FMV, it seems to again require already assuming that Rinoa is Ultimecia in order to conclude that the scene was intended to infer something of that nature, but there's nothing to dismiss it as a possible indication if there is otherwise strong support for the notion.
On the matter of the Sorceress' wings, on both occasions in which the feathers appear around Rinoa in the opening, the feathers appear in the wake of Squall's Gunblade passing, so it's not necessarily intended for the feathers to be making a statement about Rinoa alone. They could simply be intended to be foreshadowing of the mood of the game itself or of the dire situations that were yet to come.
Anyway, if the Sorceress Power caused one Sorceress to develop wings, it doesn't seem very far-fetched for it to allow any other to do so, though it's true that Rinoa and Ultimecia are the only ones ever specifically seen with them. Though, by that same token, if it's being argued that Rinoa's physiology can change into Ultimecia's because the physiology of other Sorceresses have undergone far more dramatic transformartions, it's equally logical that any other Sorceress could have grown wings.
This matter isn't a huge point in favor of the theory, but it does have a fair bit of grounding. On its own, it may not do much, like with the possible origin of Ultimecia's name or the ending FMV of the game, but if coupled with those and other stronger evidence, it would certainly be relevant and extremely worthy of note. Further, it can't be adequately contradicted as a point in favor of the theory. However, by the same token, without further evidence to support the theory, it remains merely a point of possible foreshadowing toward dire situations ahead, specifically in the area of extraordinary circumstances falling between Squall and Rinoa to nearly keep them apart on several occasions.
As for the final matter brought up within “The Theory,” when using Scan on Griever, the following information is given:
Note the aspect about it being "In Squall's mind, the strongest GF." This means one of two things:Griever
In Squall's mind, the strongest GF. Through Ultimecia's power,
continues fighting without vanishing.
1) Either Griever was an idea in Squall's head that Ultimecia pulled out and gave form to during the battle,
or
2) Griever was a creature that already existed and which Squall had known about.
In regard to the first possibility, Ultimecia does frequently cause party members to lose an entire stock of a specific Spell during the battle against her. This suggests that she is, indeed, capable of reaching into the mind of another and extracting something. Further, a translation of Ultimecia's Summoning of Griever from the Japanese Version of the game would suggest Griever was created from the feelings -- and, thereby, the thoughts -- of those facing her:
(Translated by the same fellow that translated the information concerning Ultimecia's death in Sir Bahamut's document.)
In regard to the second possibility, Squall owns several items that feature Griever, including his ring, his necklace, the small emblem dangling from a chain connected to the handle of his Gunblade, and a large symbol on the lid of the case in which his Revolver Gunblade came:Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things
[from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment
you. Fufu.
Linkage to a screenshot of Squall's necklace.
Linkage to a screenshot of Squall's Revolver Gunblade and its case.
It should further be noted that Squall already knew of the legendary GF Bahamut:
(From the beginning of the battle with Bahamut in the Deep Sea Research Center.)
If he knew of one legendary GF, it stands to reason that he might have known of another, one that is said to have been regarded as the strongest in his mind, this possibly intended to mean "in his opinion."Bahamut: "I am... Bahamut."
Squall: "The legendary GF...."
In either case, Griever was most certainly either an idea in Squall's head or a being that he already was aware of. Further, there were more items bearing Griever's symbol than just Squall's ring. There's nothing about Griever that actually supports the theory that Rinoa is Ultimecia.
In response to the concept of “Rinoa is Ultimecia” itself, something else worthy of note is that Ultimecia attempted to kill Rinoa several times. The first time was when she sent the Iguions to kill her. She later tries again in Galbadia Garden if Rinoa is in the party. Even if she is not, Ultimecia possesses Rinoa for a brief moment and uses her to pass a message to Seifer, and then sends Rinoa into a coma.
Later, she uses Rinoa to disable the locks on Adel's tomb, so as to free the elder Sorceress. Immediately after, she ditches Rinoa in space, leaving her to die.
If Rinoa were her past self, we can reasonably assume she would be aware of it to some extent, even if insane, as she would be witnessing her own past and the events that led up to her dive into insanity. Granted, if one is making the argument that Rinoa would have forgotten her past completely due to the use of GFs across several centuries, that would present reasonable grounds, perhaps, for her not being aware of the past, though that, in itself, is part backwards reasoning (as it would require already believing Ultimecia to be Rinoa) and part assumption of something not supported and which could only be assumed if one had previously used backwards reasoning (that Rinoa was Ultimecia and had forgotten the past due to GF usage).
-Things That Might Be Used To Argue Against the Theory, But Which Really Don’t Contradict It-
Rinoa Dying In The Final Battle:
Possible Contradiction: Since Rinoa can die and be absorbed into time in the final battle with Ultimecia, if she were Ultimecia’s past self, that should erase Rinoa’s future. In other words, it should erase Ultimecia’s own state of being in the present.
Why It Isn’t A Contradiction: While Rinoa can die in the final battle with Ultimecia and be absorbed into time and Ultimecia not vanish, with the normal flow of time already skewed by Time Compression, Ultimecia was possibly outside the normal flow of time, and, thus, protected. For that matter, she was likely already in possession of the Sorceress Power of all those Sorceresses killed by Squall and the others when they entered the Time Compressed World, and perhaps by virtue of this and being the one who cast Time Compression, she was somehow protected in that regard.
For that matter, to question would require questioning why Squall, Irvine, Zell, Selphie, Quistis, and Rinoa hadn’t already faded out of existence due to their own pasts being swallowed up by Time Compression already.
Rinoa Leaving Her Proper Place In The Time Stream:
Possible Contradiction: Rinoa left the time stream at the moment that Adel died. She and SeeD traveled into the future. Ultimecia would have no longer had a past beyond the point of Adel's death if she were Rinoa. When SeeD got to the future, they would not have found Ultimecia there, for Rinoa would not have been able to become her, being that she left the time stream before she ever became her. Even with Rinoa returning to the exact second that she left the timeline, until she returned to the past again, there shouldn't be an Ultimecia for her to encounter in the future.
Why It Isn’t A Contradiction: Again, there was no longer a normal flow of time due to Time Compression. To argue that Ultimecia should have vanished because her past self no longer remained along a timeline that itself no longer existed even while the past self continued to exist would be completely illogical, especially in light of Squall and the others not vanishing, despite their own pasts having been absorbed into time.
-Conclusion-
Many points used to argue in favor of the theory either already require having accepted it as fact – in which case the conclusion would be used as support for the evidence that’s supposed to support the conclusion, a logical fallacy known as “circular reasoning” that absolutely is never valid in a debate – or require making some leaps in assumption that aren’t definitively supported, and, in at least one case (immortality), are defeated by the concept of Occam’s Razor (“All things being equal, the most simple explanation is the best”).
By the same token, however, most of these things are never definitively contradicted by the source material, in which case their potential as being possible remains. Of course, stating that because they’re not contradicted, they’re as valid for consideration as if they were supported wouldn’t be logical either, as that’s a logical fallacy in which the lack of any contradicting evidence is used to the effort of arguing validity for that which has no support (or, at the least, no concrete support), something else that has no place in debate.
In conclusion, while it can be argued that the possibility is there, that it should be up for consideration as fact – or “canon” as it is called in fandom – cannot be, as there’s simply too much to be assumed that isn’t supported or hinted toward, and too much that essentially requires the audience to write it theirself, taking it out of the hands of the actual writer and assuming intent for them.
The Final Word: While possible, the theory is in no way plausible.
Acknowledgements: I wish to acknowledge and offer my gratitude to Sir Bahamut, the author of the best document that argued in favor of the possibility of Rinoa being Ultimecia. Here is the URL to his own thesis on this matter once more:I learned a good deal from you, sir.Code:http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/final_fantasy_viii_time_ultimecia.txt
I also wish to thank my sweetheart, Carys. I love you, sweetheart. Thank you for being you and just being in my life. You give me all the support I'll ever need to achieve anything.
I wish to thank Square-Enix and the developers at Square for their production
of this game. It's been very important to me.
Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy VIII are registered trademarks of
Square-Enix. They own all rights to these two titles, their featured
characters, and the likenesses of said characters.
Star Wars is a registered trademark of Lucasfilm.Ltd, with Lucasfilm.Ltd
holding all rights to said title, including its characters and their
likenesses, and Dark Horse Comics Incorporated holds publishing rights to
Star Wars: Empire's End.
Last edited by Squall of SeeD; 02-28-2005 at 08:40 PM.
I love my Carys with all my heart.
<3<3<3<3<3<3<3
Where the clouds part and the truth is revealed: Final Fantasy VII Analysis.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
Hm, the quotes worked on this site in any case. Sorry I never gave any proper feedback to that before, but the quotes didn't work which made it dreadfully annoying to read, and then, well, as time passed by I forgot about it.
But reading it now was worth it. Very well written, and I agree with (almost) all of your points, and with your general conclusion on the matter.
That convinced me.
That has got to be the longest friggin post I have ever seen on these boards...
How about set in concrete? Concrete can be molded once but after that it's the same shape until it breaksto say that time is set in stone really is fallacious
and I read about a fourth of that, but I still don't know what side you argued forX.x;
I daresay I like your metaphor more.How about set in concrete? Concrete can be molded once but after that it's the same shape until it breaks
In terms of black and white, I was arguing for the side that says that Rinoa isn't Ultimecia. In terms of shades of gray, I was arguing the side that said while the possibility is there, based on what is there and the necessary components that aren't there, it's not plausible for Rinoa to be considered to be Ultimecia in terms of canon.
I love my Carys with all my heart.
<3<3<3<3<3<3<3
Where the clouds part and the truth is revealed: Final Fantasy VII Analysis.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
Have to comment on one of those things I strongly disagree with:
No, it's not fallacious, at least not from my point of view. Your error here is obvious though, so it's easy to argue back fortunately:To Sir Bahamut on the nature of time being set in stone: to say that time is set in stone really is fallacious. While Ultimecia going into the past is a natural part of the time that exists and it would not exist without her doing so, in order for the current timeline to be in place (the one in which there is a loop that involves Ultimecia going to the past), there must have been a time in which this didn't occur. In other words, an original timeline in which no one ever went back. One can't have someone going to the past from the future until the future has already come to be at least once.
Your error is that you're thinking of the line of time as literally moving from the beginning to end. You musn't think that the line starts at one point and then expands onwards until it stops. You have to think of the line of time as coming to be all at once, past, future, everything.
In other words, every single point of time exist at once, and have always existed at once since time was created(or whatever).
In such a case, there would be no need for the 'original time' I argue against, because the entire line of time with all it's bumps and bends would be there at once. So there isn't anything fallcaious about thinking of time as set in stone. My arguments against the 'original time' are in my FAQ, although you probably read them before.
As for the metaphor of concrete, ie. that you can change time ONCE, but never again, that seems ridiculous to me. Why on earth would the line of time behave like concrete? It seems far more logical that if you in fact CAN change it, you can change it any time you want. You could change it more than once too if you wanted. It wouldn't make sense if it could only be changed once and never again.
Last edited by Sir Bahamut; 03-01-2005 at 03:54 PM.
But it's implied in the game that time doesn't exist like that. That's what Time Compression would have made of time. Previously, it was spoken of as something of the straight line thing:
Odine speaks of time as being something one can move forward along. How can that be if it's all an existance-at-once, which is, again, what Ultimecia was trying to achieve by combining "various states of present" as the Tutorial calls it?Doctor Odine: "Vat would be left is ze time compressed world."
"Past, present, and future will all get mixed together."
"You will keep moving through ze time compression toward ze future."
"Once you're out of ze time compression, zat will be Ultimecia's world."
When examining it in the present, yes, it would look like things always were that way, with a being from the future somehow being present in the past long before they should have been alive (or when they should have still been a toddler depending on your point of view in regard to another matter). However, with no interference in time, Ultimecia couldn't have been there before she was born for the simple reason that she wouldn't have existed yet. The present she entered was the far past for her present. Her own parents may not have even been alive at the time.
In order for her to exist and be present in the past many generations before her own time, interference in time had to occur and there had to be a time leading up to her own birth and trip into the past, involving her being born, inheriting the Sorceress Power, and then rising to power as a ruler -- or at the very least, the latter of these taking place, depending, again, on your personal interpretation of another matter -- and then tampering with the past. This particular flow of time would be overwritten in some respects due to the tampering with the timestream, eventually resulting in the loop that "always was."
There would have needed to be at least three "rough drafts" before the timeloop seen in the game was achieved:
(Note: Certain events (such as Edea's learning of SeeD) wouldn't necessarily have had to have occurred in this manner.)
1) The original flow of time in which no interference in time occurred until a certain point, either perpetrated by Ultimecia, Ellone, or by someone else.
2) A new timeline in which Ultimecia will eventually tamper with the past and be defeated, with SeeD either being formed by someone in the past or by folks in Ultimecia's present, with Edea learning of it somehow (possibly through gleaning it from Ultimecia's mind while having been possessed by her in the past).
3) Edea forms SeeD and Garden to battle the Sorceress that will someday threaten time and Squall and the other children in Edea's care eventually confront and defeat Ultimecia. As a result of this battle, Squall and Ultimecia are flung into the past where Squall will mention to Edea that she formed Garden and SeeD (concepts she wasn't even aware of at the time) and with Ultimecia passing on her powers to Edea before dying. Further, it will become part of history that SeeD defeated the evil Sorceress Ultimecia, thus why Ultimecia said they were destined to face her: "So you're the legendary SeeD destined to face me?"
4) With the minimum three "rough drafts" now completed, the final timeline commences, this one becoming permanent. Edea forms Garden and SeeD and events play out as we see them do so during the game. Squall will be sent into the past where he will inform Edea of her (maybe) ideas of Garden and SeeD, and Ultimecia will pass on her powers to Edea before dying. The events of the game will occur again and again into infinity, with them appearing to be the only timeline that ever was due to the "rough drafts" being overwritten.
So, yes, an original timeline wouldn't exist, but because it was overwritten. It would be gone and the timeline involving the perpetual loop would more than likely remain forever, as it's likely that someone else interfering in the past could potentially negate their desire to have ever gone to the past, thus causing them to never have done so, thus, there being no self-reinforcement for the past they had created, unlike the timeloop seen in the game.
So, again, when looking at the timeline now, while Ultimecia "always was" in the past at that moment, she simply was not part of that time period and shouldn't have been there anymore than Squall should have been, and she wouldn't have been had time not been tampered with. Edea even tells Squall he doesn't belong there.
While Ellone said that one can't change the past, the People she used to try to change Laguna's past never attempted to subvert Laguna, Kiros, or Ward's will to their own, unlike what Ultimecia did in regard to Edea and Rinoa, the future Sorceress having an objective and intending to take over those who she possessed.
While it's true that Ultimecia doing this resulted in the present and future (for Squall and the others)/past (for herself) that has to take place, to say that it would be impossible (based on Ellone's abilities) for them to have changed anything is false due to the fact that Ultimecia could subvert another's will while in their mind, using the device developed by Odine that simulated Ellone's own power, but which apparently isn't as powerful as hers due to it not allowing Ultimecia to reach as far back in time as she needed to in order to cast Time Compression. If Ultimecia could do this, why could no one else?
The answer is "They could, but they wouldn't." The only time we see any of the People close to Ellone that she sends into the past doing anything within the minds of those they were sent into is when Squall was speaking to Rinoa in space, trying to prevent her from giving up and letting herself die. What Ellone said about not being able to change the past is true, but because she was sending back People who didn't know what the hell was going on and wouldn't have tried to take over Laguna, Kiros, or Ward even if they had. The same People are going to make the same choices everytime. It's this concept of the same People making the same choices everytime because they're the same People that allows the timeloop itself to remain intact.
Ellone can't change the past as the very things she would seek to change would negate her having ever attempted to change them in the first place, as there would be no self-reinforcement for the act of her changing the past. However, someone as far removed from the events being changed as Ultimecia should have a significantly better chance at altering things and not being affected by it to the degree that Ellone would. The farther removed down the timeline one is from a change in the past -- and the less directly related their choice to change the past is to what's being changed -- the less likely their choice to interfere is to be negated.
In other words, because Ultimecia was so far removed from the events she was tampering with, she could tamper to a certain extent and not be as likely to prevent herself from ever existing or choosing to tamper with time as someone a generation removed would be when tampering with the very events that caused them to make their choice. Keep in mind that this only applies to the vital self-reinforcement component of changing the past and keeping it changed. Without establishing a loop with no breaks, it's theoretically impossible to permanently change the past.
To put it another way, Ellone already had this much going against her attempt: She was trying to undo something in the past that was the reason she decided to ever change time. However, it became even more unlikely that she could successfully change anything for even one cycle due to her sending back People that didn't know what was going on and wouldn't have tried to take over the bodies of those they were sent into.
Going back a couple of paragraphs to the establishment of a loop with no breaks (a self-reinforcing loop), that is what makes the events that play out in the game extremely unique in terms of time tampering: It was a successful change to the past because the altered events will result in the altered events, which will result in the altered events again and again. It maintains itself, something which Ellone's attempts at changing the past wouldn't have done for reasons already explained.
To summarize all of this, it is possible to change the past when looking at time as a straight line, but just not very easily and only very rarely could it be changed permanently. Ellone's attemps to change the past couldn't work because she would be preventing herself from ever changing the past to begin with, and unless some extremely convenient series of events played out in the timeline to ensure that she would still have a need to try to change the same thing in the past again, the newly formed past would be undone.
I don't think that's quite how rubah meant it. At least that's not how I took it. Even if you break concrete, you still have the same concrete, just in another form -- or several others -- the same as you've got the same stone even after you chisel away some of it. To make those changes lasting, of course, you'd need to make sure that some aspect of the concrete was always going to go back and break itself, but that's taking the metaphor too far.
Anyway, I said I liked that metaphor more because concrete's easier for me to associate with something that's broken than stone.
Last edited by Squall of SeeD; 03-01-2005 at 07:59 PM.
I love my Carys with all my heart.
<3<3<3<3<3<3<3
Where the clouds part and the truth is revealed: Final Fantasy VII Analysis.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
You missed my point. Perhaps I didn't portray it clearly enough. What I mean, is that the future isn't 'waiting to happen' as it were, it's already there. So even though Squall and Co haven't witnessed the future occur, people from the future can still come from the future into their own time.Odine speaks of time as being something one can move forward along. How can that be if it's all an existance-at-once, which is, again, what Ultimecia was trying to achieve by combining "various states of present" as the Tutorial calls it?
Time compression would make all time exist at once in the same point. I am saying time exists all at once but in the natural line form. To make an analogy, take the line of time to be a road, and people on it as cars driving along the road. What I am suggesting is that this road didn't start off empty, for the cars to then start driving down it. I am suggesting that the road came with the cars already on them.
So if we were to look at the road from a birds view there'd be cars travelling in a continuous infinite stream everywhere on the line of time. Everything's happening 'at once' but not at the same point in time, as it were. Hope I made that somewhat understandable.
This is what I mean. I just believe this would be the case since time first begun. Time would be literally set in stone from the very beginning, so we could zoom in on any point and watch a row of events before switching back to a past far in the past and observing that instead.When examining it in the present, yes, it would look like things always were that way, with a being from the future somehow being present in the past long before they should have been alive (or when they should have still been a toddler depending on your point of view in regard to another matter).
Well, this is simply a disagreement on what degree of importance Ellones statement should have. It's true, that technically speaking, Ellone doesn't necessarily know the truth based on what she does in the game. However, I firmly believe this was Squares way of letting us in on their interpretation of time in the game. It ties up that entire plot point, sets the scene for Squalls subsequent attempt to save Rinoa and fits in perfectly with the implied notion of fate. Fate(in conjunction with Ellones statement) would for me imply a nonchanging line of time, and that rules out any original time as far as I'm concerned. The alternate explanation I have presented is the one I have then taken as being the most logical.While Ellone said that one can't change the past, the People she used to try to change Laguna's past never attempted to subvert Laguna, Kiros, or Ward's will to their own, unlike what Ultimecia did in regard to Edea and Rinoa, the future Sorceress having an objective and intending to take over those who she possessed.
Of course, I understand that you may disagree, but I am certain it is not because of a fallacy in my argument, but rather in core differences of opinion.
If time was set in stone, nothing Ultimecia did while possessing anyone would be changing the past, it'd simply be another event set in stone.While it's true that Ultimecia doing this resulted in the present and future (for Squall and the others)/past (for Ultimecia) that has to take place, to say that it would be impossible (based on Ellone's abilities) for them to have changed anything is false due to the fact that Ultimecia could subvert another's will while in their mind, using the device developed by Odine that simulated Ellone's own power, but which apparently isn't as powerful as hers due to it not allowing Ultimecia to reach as far back in time as she needed to in order to cast Time Compression. If Ultimecia could do this, why could no one else?
So it's only false if you believe the past can be changed, which brings us back to cardinal differences which aren't answerable in the game(on a factual basis anyway).
Or much simpler(in my eyes anyway): the timeloop remains intact because you can't change the past.It's this concept of the same People making the same choices everytime because they're the same People that allows the timeloop itself to remain intact.
I don't see why this conclusion is drawn. There certainly isn't any basis for stating something as 'theoretically impossible' in such a discussion. Perhaps 'theoretically impossible' within the framework of your interpretation of time.Without establishing a loop with no breaks, it's theoretically impossible to permanently change the past.
To summarise: Whether or not the line of time is changing or not isn't a question that can be logically concluded from ingame information. My own view works out perfectly logically, and I see it as the most logical. Your own view is that an original time is necessary for it to all start.
I haven't been in any way convinced by your arguments I'm afraid(doubtlessly goes both ways), so unless you can point out any logical errors I won't change my opinion here.
X.x more long posts.
ExcellentIn terms of black and white, I was arguing for the side that says that Rinoa isn't Ultimecia.You should like, put that at the first, so people know what to read for ^_^
I see your point regarding time existing all at once now.
But we would still be left with those events in the future being a result of those in the past, such as Ellone's capture by Seifer being a result of her falling to the Planet from space shortly before. She fell from space, then was captured, not the other way around.
The past was changed to some degree, however, when Ellone was connecting Squall to the closest moment in the past to the present while they were in space. Squall's thoughts were being sent to Rinoa, and though they may have only been transmitted seconds into the past, they were still altering the previous few seconds for Rinoa.
Fate is usually shown to be a product of the choices made by those involved, though. Such as in the Greek Tragedy Oedipus Rex, in which every decision made in an attempt to circumvent fate only served to bring it to fruition. In the game, Ultimecia knew that she was supposed to be defeated by SeeD, and though she doubtless wished to avoid this fate, her actions only served to ensure her demise.
Another example of choices establishing fate is Squall's choice to dive into space after Rinoa, if only to be with her as they both died. This choice served to allow SeeD to secure the Ragnarok, which subsequently allowed them to enter Lunatic Pandora, defeat Adel, rescue Ellone, and set in motion Odine's plan to put a stop to Ultimecia.
One could even take this back further to Ultimecia's choices again. In this case, her choice to have Rinoa open the lock on Adel's Tomb. There doesn't seem to have been any reason for her to have had to do this, as the Lunatic Pandora would have pulled Adel's Tomb down to the Planet anyway with the Lunar Cry, and the lock on the Tomb could have as easily been disengaged there by Seifer. But Ultimecia chose to have Rinoa go out into space to deactivate the lock, likely for no other reason than that she could. As a result, we have Squall's choice, which led to Ultimecia's defeat. Ultimecia's own choices caused her undoing like a Domino Effect.
One could take this back further still to Rinoa's choice to be present when Edea was confronted in Galbadia Garden, and her subsequent possession by Ultimecia and inheritance of the Sorceress Power. Fate is inescapable, yes, but choices are what determines fate. Who People are determines the choices they'll make. Fate is inescapable because it's a product of who People are.
More than likely.
Yes, but the reason the past couldn't be changed is because the same folks in exactly the same situations will make exactly the same choices everytime. It's not so much a rule of the time continuum as it is a result of who People are and how they'll make choices. In other words, it's fate.
In this particular case, the game itself shows us these particular past events set in place by a being operating from the future are self-sustaining. The timeloop maintains itself. The same choices will be made every time and the same events will follow, leading back to the revival of the timeloop.
A loop without any breaks has been established, setting in place a series of events that will always come to be. Based on us being shown that these events are self-sustaining, it follows logically that any changes rendered in the past that aren't self-sustaining would break, Ellone's desire to alter the past being removed if she had succeeded being an example of this.
I would say it's logical that -- while time would be existing everywhere along its course at any one time -- certain things must have occurred in order for certain other things to be in place. In this case, I would say that we can't have someone in 2,223 A.D. if their great, great, great, great, great grandfather died in 2,0005 A.D. before he could produce any children and without any of his sperm being saved for artificial insemination. The future is dependent on the past, and not self-sustaining on its own. The self-reinforcing nature of the timeloop itself shows us this.
Another thing that requires note and that goes along with the earlier point concerning Odine stating that SeeD would move toward the future after the Time Compression wave passed over the present era is that Ultimecia needed to reach the far past in order to cast Time Compression to affect all of time itself. If being in any one place throughout time was as "active" so to speak and non-dependent on other aspects of time as you're suggesting, why would this have been necessary?
Anyway, I imagine we've pretty much discussed this matter as far as we can and I expect your next Post will be the last or next to it in this discussion, so thanks for the discussion, Sir Bahamut. It certainly wasn't a disappointment, as was the case last time.
Well, I do, just not in those words.Excellent
Last edited by Squall of SeeD; 03-01-2005 at 11:53 PM.
I love my Carys with all my heart.
<3<3<3<3<3<3<3
Where the clouds part and the truth is revealed: Final Fantasy VII Analysis.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
