The Rinoa-Ultimecia theory.

[rubah]

Hmm. Maybe I've been trained to ignore everything that isn't in the actual body of a paper ^_^

You definitely deserve a cookie though.

I'll leave the actual reading to other people though-_-

[Sir Bahamut]

But we would still be left with those events in the future being a result of those in the past, such as Ellone's capture by Seifer being a result of her falling to the Planet from space shortly before. She fell from space, then was captured, not the other way around.

Naturally, but since all of time existed at once the loop would already be in place from the beginning, without an original time.

The past was changed to some degree, however, when Ellone was connecting Squall to the closest moment in the past to the present while they were in space. Squall's thoughts were being sent to Rinoa, and though they may have only been transmitted seconds into the past, they were still altering the previous few seconds for Rinoa.

Well, I don't think even a single second was changed in either case, and that those events were also set in stone. That's the whole crucial element with the line of time being set in stone: loops would also be set in stone. The line of time would in other words be bumpy.

As for the next long thing on fate, it's important to note that I basing my conclusion ALSO on Ellones line. It is combined that I find the implication to be a time set in stone. A philosphical discussion on fate is not something I wish to engage in, as it doesn't really matter, and will only draw this out.

Yes, but the reason the past couldn't be changed is because the same folks in exactly the same situations will make exactly the same choices everytime. It's not so much a rule of the time continuum as it is a result of who People are and how they'll make choices. In other words, it's fate.

Certainly that could be used as a general explanation within a small framework like the loop, but it would not suffice as a full statement in my theory on time in FF8. In the broader sense, you'd need a broader statement, like "the line of time cannot be altered" simply because that's the way time 'works'. Kind of like comparing Newtons formulas for gravity with Einsteins formulas for gravity. In a small framework, Newtons laws are perfectly good to use. But in a larger framework Einsteins formulas become critical.

In this particular case, the game itself shows us these particular past events set in place by a being operating from the future are self-sustaining. The timeloop maintains itself. The same choices will be made every time and the same events will follow, leading back to the revival of the timeloop.

A loop without any breaks has been established, setting in place a series of events that will always come to be. Based on us being shown that these events are self-sustaining, it follows logically that any changes rendered in the past that aren't self-sustaining would break, Ellone's desire to alter the past being removed if she had succeeded being an example of this.

Yeah, you're quite right about that. Didn't see your point at once yesterday.

The future is dependent on the past, and not self-sustaining on its own. The self-reinforcing nature of the timeloop itself shows us this.

Doubtlessly, cause and effect is always going to be in place, so for any given event in time we need a previous event(ignoring the unpleasant questions about any beginning of the line). But the loop also showed us that the past co-exists with the future. I simply believe this applies outside the loop and logically to the entire line of time.

Any given event would have a previous event, but any given event would ALSO have a NEXT event. Any event would have a parent and a child, so to speak. That's at least what I think, although I find your own view to be perfectly logical as well.

Another thing that requires note and that goes along with the earlier point concerning Odine stating that SeeD would move toward the future after the Time Compression wave passed over the present era is that Ultimecia needed to reach the far past in order to cast Time Compression to affect all of time itself. If being in any one place throughout time was as "active" so to speak and non-dependent on other aspects of time as you're suggesting, why would this have been necessary?

What reasons/limitations required Ultimecia to be in the 'far past' to cast TC is unknown to me, as it is not revealed in the game. As such, there could be a number of explanations fitting in with either theory on time.

Anyway, I imagine we've pretty much discussed this matter as far as we can and I expect your next Post will be the last or next to it in this discussion, so thanks for the discussion, Sir Bahamut. It certainly wasn't a disappointment, as was the case last time.

I enoyed it too. It got me rethinking some of the ideas I had, and helped me get a more sound picture and description of my own theory, as well as understanding the 'original time' side far better. Always healthy getting your opinions challenged, I guess.

By the way, I'll probably expand a bit on the Time section in the FAQ to include some more on the 'original time' vs unchanging time bit(with due credit of course).

[Destai]

Just throwing this in.

"Squalls sword will pierce my heart"
"I guess its ok if its you Squall, No one else"

[seiyuimore]

I still think that U is not R. . . For someone who was born and raised in English language, how come in the future she has broken English?
Like the "Kurse SeeD" not "Curse SeeD"
I think square soft wants to indicate that Ultimecia has difficulty in saying "C" while Rinoa never have difficulty in saying "C" in English.

Ever considered that Ultimecia is Rinoa's and Squall's daughter or grand daughter in the future?

[Sir Bahamut]

Dialect changes pretty quickly you know. If you had spoken to someone who lived in England several hundred years ago you would have noticed a difference. Since Ultimecia lives so far into the future, it's only natural that she wouldn't have had the exact same dialect(people tend to copy eachother in that respect).

Although I still agree that from Squares perspective, they probably weren't thinking that deep.

[Destai]

um..maybe it was a typo.

[Ichimonji]

Ultimecia: ...SeeD... SeeD......SeeD...... SeeD, SeeD, SeeD! Kurse all SeeDs. Swarming like lokust akross generations. You disgust me. The world was on the brink of that ever-elusive 'time compression'. Insolent fools! Your vain krusade ends here, SeeDs. The price for your meddling is death beyond death. I shall send you to a dimension beyond your imagining. There, I will reign, and you will be my slaves for eternity. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Whom shall I exterminate first!? I'll start with you three.

Definitely not a typo.

[seiyuimore]

The question is, which town that has that dialect? Estharian, Galbadian, Balamb, Winhill, Timberian and Shumi don't have that dialect. Or you are saying that Ultimecia made it herself? Why would she do that?

[Ichimonji]

Of course no town has that dialect now, she's from the future.

[seiyuimore]

But Sir Bahamut said that dialect could change very quickly when you stay in one place for a long time. Where did Ultimecia stay then? Someone must have created that dialect somehow or someone from outer space or something visited the FF VIII World and create new town there and stay there. But as we know, there is no new town in Ultimecia world.

[rubah]

You've obviously never read that one internet joke where it sujests tat we al spek lik tis.

Or something like that.

Probably the people of the future (more than likely the people from esthar) decided that C was a useless letter, and replaced the soft c with s and hard c with k. CH can be faked with a tsk sound anyways^_^

All about improving for the future. Or laziness.

[Squall of SeeD]

The real mystery in regard to Ultimecia's accent is why everytime she uses a sharp "c" sound she substitutes it with a "k" except when speaking of Time Compression:

"...SeeD..."

"SeeD......SeeD......"

"SeeD, SeeD, SeeD!"

"Kurse all SeeDs."

"Swarming like lokusts akross generations. You disgust me."

"The world was on the brink of that ever-elusive 'time-compression'."

[Big D]

The real mystery in regard to Ultimecia's accent is why everytime she uses a sharp "c" sound she substitutes it with a "k" except when speaking of Time Compression:

Maybe you played a different edition of the game from me, but in my version she definitely says "kompression" during the dialogue you quoted.
Her final form, however, speaks in a normal accent.

[seiyuimore]

Hmm, then why she used the "k" things? Don't think Rinoa could ever invented new language. . .

[Destai]

Maybe it was just where she took up residence for a number of years before Squall and co. confronted Ultimecia.