The Rinoa-Ultimecia theory.

[Sir Bahamut]

Don't think Rinoa could ever invented new language. . .

Pronouncing the letter "C" more like a "K" is hardly inventing a new language :rolleyes2

[seiyuimore]

But still it creates different dialect.

Moreover, why she wants to be one with adel? wouldn't she think she possessed her past life? it would be easier

[Sir Bahamut]

Well, Ultimecia(Rinoa) wouldn't know who Rinoa was at the time she puts her plans into work. Now, 'fusing' Adel and Rinoa would leave Ultimecia with a very powerful sorceress that would be very powerful. An ideal creature to accomplish her plans with in other words.

And as for the dialect, as I said, dialects change all the time, we just don't notice it until we look back some time after, because we're all absorbing it without noticing it. Ultimecia lives hundreds of years into the future. IT the dialect HADN'T changed a bit, that'd be pretty weird.

[Destai]

Maybe Square originally planned for Rinoa to be Ultimecia but scraped making it a part of the storyline because of parts that didnt make sense.

[Gnostic Yevon]

Timeless R=U Theory

This is based on a theory in Physics stating that Time is an illusion.

The theory runs something like this:
1.) All the experiences we have or remember having are in the tructure of the universe in the configuration that you experience.
2.) For some configurations, there is a greater probability of them being experienced than others, due to physical laws etc.
3.) Other possible configurations exist but are not experienced due to the probability factor.

Now for the Rinoa = Ultamecia theory:

In such a world is Time Travel possible?

I think so, but only to configurations that already included you time-traveling to them. In other words, if history doesn't record that you time traveled to that reality, you cannot go there. You would never alter these realities because you were *supposed* to be there.

Now barrowing from a different game series (FFX/X-2)

Suppose Yuna of X-2 decides to somehow travel backward in time to tell herself about what would happen to her and others around her. So she arrives "in the past". But is it just any version of the past? No, it's a past in which Future Yuna (Yuna 2) visits the Past Yuna (Yuna 1). So from Yuna 1's perspective, a weirdo claiming to be her from the future comes to visit and tells her about some future events. From Yuna 2's perspective, she sees herself in those days, including knowing what will happen. Including the visit that she is making now. But if doing so would alter the future to the point that the reason she time travels doesn't happen, then she wouldn't time travel.

Would harming yourself in a universe you visited necessarily destroy you?

Probably not. I don't think that such a thing could happen because if a person murdered their past self, they would thus not be able to kill their past self, so while they could probably make the attempt, any such attempt must fail. So therefore there must be a fate to such a universe. A time traveler could only do those things which he was "fated" to do, because if he does anything else, he would destroy the possibility of a time-travel trip to that time. But to our Time-Traveler, the choice was his and no one elses. He decides and therefore builds a time machine or devises some other method to go there/then. He actually has a bit of freedom while he is there. He can do many things, but he can't do anything that will change the fact that he comes back there.

What is Time Compression then?

I would imagine this Time Compression to be the same thing as viewing all of these possible universes at all possible instants in history at the same time. So there would be infinate versions of everything, and all possible outcomes would occur at the same time. So again going back to the Spira universe, the reality in which yuna 2 does time travel, and all the results thereof, occur at the same time. But the other realities occur at the same time in the same way. So there is a Yuna that got told the future and one that didn't.

I think murding of a past self might be possible at this point. Because all possible outcomes are there, there is a version of you that you are *supposed* to kill. This version of you is not the you of the reality you came from. That version of you has a different future, not connected to your own. killing that you has nothing to do with your future. for all intents and purposes, this is a different person. One that you were meant to kill.

Now, back to Rinoa.

Let's assume for a second that Ultamecia is Rinoa. So Future Rinoa (Rinoa-2) goes back in time. She can meet her past self(Rinoa-1), talk to her and anyone else at that time period. Provided that she posseses the ability to do so, she could posses Rinoa-1, without a contradiction. However, no matter how hard she tries, she will never be able to off herself. Itwould simply be forbidden by physics. And another thing, for Rinoa-2 to be able to return to the Rinoa-1 timeframe she cannot die between the Rinoa-1 timeframe and the Rinoa-2 timeframe. This means that Sorceresses ought to be extremely long lived, because otherwise, Rinoa would probably die of old age or murder long before becoming Rinoa-2. Other than the aging and assaination possibilites, there is simply no physical reason why she could not do everything that Ultamecia did.

Now as to madness and forgetfulness, I suppose it's a possibility. An insane person may attempt to kill a past self, especially if she forgets who she was, and why she would have wanted to time-travel in the first place. Although how such a person would be able to cast such a complex spell with no memories is beyond me. I guess it would depend on whether any such memory loss would affect skills such as magical spell casting. Maybe skills aren't lost, if that is the case, then her forgetting that she was Rinoa isn't even a probleem.

So there's no reason why Rinoa cannot be Ultamecia.

[rubah]

Except there's not much reason why she SHOULD be.

[disapointedchild]

Holy crap, who brought this up again?

I sense some flaming.

[§håd0w]

As do I. That's why I try not to take part in these logical debates anymore. Because people then start to take it seriously; like the people who play D&D for a "living."

[Mercen-X]

In viewing a world where time is real and not an allusion to our mortality, one commonly creates the visual paradox that typically makes time travel impossible. This paradox being that if any change should occur in the past the traveler is visiting, there arises a chance that it may affect his past self’s decision to time travel to begin with. Thus, it is possible that traveling backward through time could cancel out traveling backward through time.
Looking at the theory that time travel creates a parallel reality for said traveler to view, we can assume that killing “his past self” will not cause him to cease to exist. However, upon his attempt to return to his own time in his own reality, he would find himself in his own time yet still in the reality of “his past self,” as he would never be able to return to his own reality in which he would be dead, for if he did, his travels would be erased and his actions would be undone and he would simply exist in a reality in which he believed he was unsuccessful in traveling through time to begin with.
The “ad infinitum” time loop has been referred to again and again. There’s a flaw in this seemingly hopeless play of events: if one does not realize they are in a time loop, then they cannot be in a time loop. Look at it this way. No one knows who Ultimecia is and the powerful sorceress dies and passes on her powers to Edea (which is how she comes to possess her). Because Ultimecia dies before she is born, she does not have continuity in this proposed “time loop.” The only way for a time loop to exist is that a person (just need one) has to be aware of the repeated events. Think about Groundhog’s Day (Bill Murray) and you’ll understand what I mean. Despite everything you do to change the future, the events continue to play out as they had before. That is a time loop and it is the only way in which it could exist.
So Ultimecia appears to Edea and dies, passing on her power to Edea in the process. Edea prepares the SeeDs because she is aware that Ultimecia will come to control her. After Edea’s defeat, Ultimecia’s powers are passed onto Rinoa (apparently). As being a sorceress in no way implies that one should have their own powers even before inheritance, it is sufficed to say that Rinoa inherits her powers from Ultimecia bar “Ultimecia and Edea.” This solves for the PMT.
Rinoa now has the powers of Ultimecia and for some reason falls comatose. When she awakes, in a dazed and involuntary action, she frees Adel from her space prison and Ultimecia’s powers are simultaneously passed on to this sorceress.
It is theorized that despite this transfer of power, Adel is not controlled by Ultimecia’s drive because she herself was evil and has her own drive. Upon her defeat, Ultimecia’s powers are passed onto “who knows where” whereas Adel’s powers (she had inherited already, hence her being sealed) are passed onto Rinoa.
Following shortly thereafter, Squall and his team move through the time compressed world until they reach Ultimecia, where they must kill her. Traveling through Time Compression is the only way to encounter Ultimecia in her physical form. To survive in that world, they need to think about a place they all can believe in, a place of love and friendship, they should all arrive in that place together.

It has been said that Rinoa acquired Ultimecia’s powers as well as Adel’s, but that is flawed as a sorceress does not retain the powers she inherited after passing them unto another sorceress. Thence, the question would be (since Ultimecia’s powers jumped from Rinoa to Adel) at what time did Rinoa reacquire these powers. It could not have been during the final battle as Ultimecia’s powers are then passed to Edea. The only assumption left is that Rinoa reacquired the powers upon Adel’s defeat. Thus she would have the powers of both Adel and Ultimecia, however, this is also flawed as it is that the immense powers of both of these sorceresses would no doubt consume her immediately as it had when Ultimecia alone controlled her earlier on.
Since I’ve stated that I believe Rinoa gets her Angel Wings powers from Adel, the only remaining question is: what became of Ultimecia’s powers before the final battle?

Here’s another thought:
What if Adel did not retain her own powers whilst obtaining those of Ultimecia? What if Adel’s own powers were passed onto Rinoa during her inheritance of those of Ultimecia? This would make evident that no sorceress can have the powers of two sorceress so then during Adel’s destruction (Rinoa having inherited Adel’s powers) Ultimecia’s powers would be stagnant. Thus, only the compressing of time can Ultimecia’s powers and body reunite.

Even if this theory is true, the question still remains as to who Ultimecia is. However, I would deny that it were Rinoa.

[Sir Bahamut]

There’s a flaw in this seemingly hopeless play of events: if one does not realize they are in a time loop, then they cannot be in a time loop.

This makes no sense. Of course a time loop can exist without the people in it knowing that they're in one. No one is aware of it, because the loop looks identical for each round. In fact, the loop is completely unchanging, so in reality, you only need to think of it as having happened once. Thinking of it has having happened any more times is completely unnecessary, as all those other times would be identical to the first.

Think of it as a video. The events in the video only happen once. Of course, you can watch the video over and over if you want to, but that doesn't mean anything.

Edea prepares the SeeDs because she is aware that Ultimecia will come to control her.

Arguable. She may have reasoned her way to this, but it seems more likely that she simply did it to carry out what she realised was her destiny.

As being a sorceress in no way implies that one should have their own powers even before inheritance, it is sufficed to say that Rinoa inherits her powers from Ultimecia bar “Ultimecia and Edea.” This solves for the PMT.

What is PMT? Anyway, Rinoa took ALL the powers inherent in Edea, not just part of them. This can easily be proven.

When she awakes, in a dazed and involuntary action, she frees Adel from her space prison and Ultimecia’s powers are simultaneously passed on to this sorceress.

Where did you get this from? Adel didn't receive powers from anyone when she was freed in space. She simply still had her old powers, which she never gave away. There is absolutely no indication that she got any other powers. In fact, it wouldn't make sense if she did.

Upon her defeat, Ultimecia’s powers are passed onto “who knows where” whereas Adel’s powers (she had inherited already, hence her being sealed) are passed onto Rinoa.

Again, Adel didn't have Ultimecias powers. Adels powers came from a completely different source. So all that happens is that Rinoa receives Adels powers. There are no extra powers left unaccounted for.

Thence, the question would be (since Ultimecia’s powers jumped from Rinoa to Adel) at what time did Rinoa reacquire these powers.

This question can be dropped because it's based on the assumption that Rinoa gave away her powers to Adel in space, something which obviously didn't happen. So all your speculation is uneccesary. Here is exactly what happened:

Edea becomes a sorceress at the age of 5 --- Edea receives powers from Ultimecia --- Edea gives all her powers to Rinoa --- Adel gives her powers to Rinoa --- Rinoas powers eventuall reach Ultimecia(or Rinoa IS Ultimecia).

That's all there is to it.

This would make evident that no sorceress can have the powers of two sorceress so then during Adel’s destruction (Rinoa having inherited Adel’s powers) Ultimecia’s powers would be stagnant.

A sorceress CAN have the powers of two different sorceresses. This should be evident simply by playing the game and noticing that both Edea and Rinoa have powers stemming from two different places.

[Kamiko]

So basically, what happened was Rinoa caught Seifer and Squall in bed together and her hair turned white from the horror. She then decided to get plastic surgery to look completely different and somehow, the theory of not being able to be 2 yous in one place at the same time, is irrelevant, but since it's just a theory anyways, I suppose it doesn't matter. I don't know, I see no proof behind this theory but am inclined to believe it because it's interesting.

[Sir Bahamut]

Not exactly. If you want an updated view of the R=U theory, go to:

www.gamefaqs.com

Find Final Fantasy 8 --> FAQs and Guides --> Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ.
Oh, and here can be two "yous" in a place at once in FF8. This is proven b the fact that a young chuld Squall stands next to the Squall we play in the scene at the Orphanage in the ending.

[Mercen-X]

This makes no sense. Of course a time loop can exist without the people in it knowing that they're in one. No one is aware of it, because the loop looks identical for each round. In fact, the loop is completely unchanging, so in reality, you only need to think of it as having happened once. Thinking of it has having happened any more times is completely unnecessary, as all those other times would be identical to the first.

The thing is that people keep saying that these characters are "caught" in a time loop. But since none of these characters carries a continuity through the events, then no one can be "caught" in this time loop. I'm not the one who referred to the time loop as "ground hog's day with no Bill Murray" in so many words. I know that the time loop only occurs once. It bugs me that people can focus on that so much without trying to imagine what happens further in the future. What happens after Ultimecia goes back in time? The world doesn't cease to exist because she vanished from it. Time would continue to pass even after she disappeared.

Arguable. She may have reasoned her way to this, but it seems more likely that she simply did it to carry out what she realised was her destiny.

Maybe.

What is PMT? Anyway, Rinoa took ALL the powers inherent in Edea, not just part of them. This can easily be proven.

PMT was (I think Skyblade's) theory of Power Multiplication. That with each loop in time, Ultimecia would acquire more power as she continued to pass on her own powers and the powers of the sorceress which she possessed onto her new possessee. What I'm saying is that Edea had no powers before she took on the powers of Ultimecia. Therefore, Rinoa didn't receive her powers from Edea but from Ultimecia, who ultimately did not receive her powers from whoever the hell she did receive her powers from. The ultimate source behind all sorceress inheritance is Hyne.

When she awakes, in a dazed and involuntary action, she frees Adel from her space prison and Ultimecia’s powers are simultaneously passed on to this sorceress.

Where did you get this from? Adel didn't receive powers from anyone when she was freed in space. She simply still had her old powers, which she never gave away. There is absolutely no indication that she got any other powers. In fact, it wouldn't make sense if she did.

When Edea's powers passed onto to Rinoa, she regained her self-awareness. Since Rinoa's self-awareness was absent and she regained it shortly after releasing Adel, I assumed the same play of events was responsible.

Here is exactly what happened:

Edea becomes a sorceress at the age of 5 --- Edea receives powers from Ultimecia --- Edea gives all her powers to Rinoa --- Adel gives her powers to Rinoa --- Rinoas powers eventually reach Ultimecia(or Rinoa IS Ultimecia).

This would make evident that no sorceress can have the powers of two sorceress so then during Adel’s destruction (Rinoa having inherited Adel’s powers) Ultimecia’s powers would be stagnant.

A sorceress CAN have the powers of two different sorceresses. This should be evident simply by playing the game and noticing that both Edea and Rinoa have powers stemming from two different places.

What two places does Edea's powers come from?

[Sir Bahamut]

The thing is that people keep saying that these characters are "caught" in a time loop. But since none of these characters carries a continuity through the events, then no one can be "caught" in this time loop.

Agreed.

PMT was (I think Skyblade's) theory of Power Multiplication. That with each loop in time, Ultimecia would acquire more power as she continued to pass on her own powers and the powers of the sorceress which she possessed onto her new possessee.

Ah, yes, remember it now. But if the powers kept adding up, Ultimecia would eventually become so strong that she'd beat Squall. If she did that, she'd be able to compress time, which effectively means we can't play the game, simply because she compresses ALL of time.

Can be negated depending on your view of Time compression, but still...

What I'm saying is that Edea had no powers before she took on the powers of Ultimecia. Therefore, Rinoa didn't receive her powers from Edea but from Ultimecia, who ultimately did not receive her powers from whoever the hell she did receive her powers from. The ultimate source behind all sorceress inheritance is Hyne.

Edea did have powers before she got Ultimecias. You must not have seend the ending in a while. If you'll recall, during the ending, Edea takes Ultimecias powers because "[Edeas] already a sorceress" and she doesn't want any of the children to become one.

So although Edea did get powers from Ultimecia, she also got powers from someone else on beforehand. But yes, the powers do originate at Hyne.

When Edea's powers passed onto to Rinoa, she regained her self-awareness. Since Rinoa's self-awareness was absent and she regained it shortly after releasing Adel, I assumed the same play of events was responsible.

Edea regained her self-awareness after giving up her powers because Ultimecia stopped possessing her at that point. Ultimecia can only possess Sorceresses, and after the fight in the Auditorium, she obviously figured Edea had lost her use. She thus forced her to give her powers to Rinoa. Edea was then no longer possessed.

However, Ultimecia can simply chose to stop possessing a person without making them give uo their powers. She only made Edea give them up as a part of her plan to free Adel, so she could possess her instead.

Since Rinoa was only a tool to free Adel, as soon as Rinoa had carried out her mission, she was left in space to die. Ultimecia stopped possessing her and concentrated on bringing Adel back.

What two places does Edea's powers come from?

Edea says and I quote that "I first became a sorceress at the age of 5".
We don't know who gave her those powers, we just know she got them. Then she recieved more powers from Ultimecia later on.

[Mercen-X]

Wait. In the game, Rinoa admits to being a sorceress. It's not a revelation to her but to her friends. When you said two places, for Rinoa I assumed you meant Adel and Ultimecia. Where else did she acquire her powers to become a sorceress (and be aware of it) as Edea had?