The Rinoa-Ultimecia theory.

[Skyblade]

I said nothing of the sort. The section on time, including the PMT bit was completely seperate from the R=U theory. All I said on the "PMT" bit was that it couldn't logically tell us if time was unchanging or not. I really don't know where you're pulling the R=U theory in from, because I don't mention that at all in that section.

I don't understand the question. Are you asking me who/what created time in FF8? That seems a bit demanding, don't you think?

Not who/what created time. Who/what created the timeline. You have a "set in stone" timeline. What determines those events? A flip of a cosmic coin? I happen to hate the idea of fate, and could go on complaining about it for more than an hour. This was not directed specifically at you, but rather at Square, if "fate" is indeed what caused all this. Let's not bring in another arguement as to why fate does/doesn't exist. My fingers won't last that long.

Flawed. If time was set in stone, Edea would have ALWAYS received her powers from Ultimecia. It's an infinite loop, as I explained. So nothings changing when she gives her her powers. You clearly missed that point in my FAQ.

Flawed. If time is set in stone, then going back in time and doing anything, including handing off powers, should be immpossible. Why should Ultimecia's handing her power off to Edea be part of this set in stone timeline, if no other time travel incidents are allowed? It makes no sense. If time is set in stone, then it is immpossible to change the past. Arguing that Ultimecia was always there to hand off her powers is only possible if you are arguing in favor of fate (and I now realize that I'll have to rail against fate at the end of this post). And even then, it is rather contradictory. If you cannot change the past, then you cannot change the past. And Ultimecia did, because if she (someone from the future) hadn't been there to hand off her powers to Edea (someone from the past), then Edea never would have had her powers. If you can't change the past, then Ultimecia should have been unable to hand her powers off to Edea, unless she was doing it in her own time. Arguing about a fixed timeline that includes time travel is about as self contradictory as you can get, in my humble opinion.

Stupid? Why would it be stupid when the game directly implies that fate exists in FF8? If you missed where I got that from you'll have to reread it. As for your second question, you're obviously confused. I never said timetravel at other points wasn't allowed. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Forgive me. I was making an assumption based off of your statements. I did not mean to say that time travel at other points is impossible, but that changing the past/future at other points is impossible. Why should Ultimecia be the only one able to effect any change on the past? I know, it's "fate", right? (Anyone notice a theme here?)

We don't "KNOW" the past can be changed. In fact, Square tell us the opposite through Ellone. She literally says "You can't change the past". Quite unambigious don't you think? Or did you miss that bit in my FAQ maybe?

First off, I think you are making a BIG mistake by believing everything the characters say (and if you don't believe everything they say, why do you believe that?). I think it's quite possible that Ellone may have been unable to change the past with her attempts, while Ultimecia would have succeeded for several reasons.

1. Ellone didn't go back in time. She sent Squall and friends back instead, and since they didn't know how Ellone wanted the past changed, they couldn't do anything about it. Ultimecia went to the past herself. She knew what she wanted and how to get it.

2. The time travel of Ultimecia to Edea's time to hand off her powers is actual time travel. Ultimecia went to the past. Ellone's method of time travel involves sending you back in someone else. So while her method failed to change the past, other methods may succeed.

I didn't "leave that out", I was perfectly aware of it. What I did was explain why time would be completely set in stone, and why the games makes perfect sense based on that assumption. Ultimecia can pass on her powers to Edea and not change the past, as long as that was part of the events set in stone, which it obviously would be. So the unchanging time explains the power transfer AND includes what the game tell us about not being able to change the past.

Please see my comment about fate at the end of this post.

Yet the game implies that fate exists repeatedly. Again, did you decide to systematically ignore those bits of my FAQ?

Ditto.

Firstly, when did I deny logic? Please do point out any logical fallacies you may find, but don't accuse me of such things without telling me what I've done wrong.

Secondly, you're obviously confused. I never used the unchanging time to back up the R=U theory. In fact, in the section on R=U(which I doubt you even read based on your post) explains my take on the R=U theory, and I even say I don't find it particularly plausible, and I also state repeatedly that it can't be proven and that it's all speculation.'

To sum up, I really think you should have read the FAQ properly before being so sharp and accusing. It's in any case obvious that you either only skimmed through it, or didn't understand a word.

You are correct here. I did fail to realize that there were two seperate sections, and I just ran them together in my mind. My most humble apologies. That was my error, not anyone else's.

Now then, concerning "fate". Fate is not a valid explanation for anything. If these events were all supposed to be pre-dertimined by fate, then I am going to have to shoot a few game designers (and ones who I really liked before I started to seriously consider that they may have put fate in the game). Fate is an excuse, and a bad one at that. You can explain anything, from the R=U theory to the PMT, by simply claiming that it happened that way because of fate. If fate does exist, it is the largest coincidence in the history of the universe. I hold up a rock, and let go. It drops to the ground every single time. If what happens to the rock is determined by fate, why is it never fated to just float there? What's more, as a firm believer in free will, fate goes against all of my relegious and personal beliefs. Anyone who tries to convince me that I was "fated" to type this post is going to become the target of every critique, complaint, flame, etc that I can think of. You have been warned. Now then, on to how fate relates to FFVIII. As I said before, fate can explain anything (extremely easily, in fact, and with no loose ends). My belief in free will contradicts fate, as does my firm belief in causality. Take FFVIII's story line. If it was fate that Ultimecia went back and gave Edea her powers, why was it fate? What determines the series of events. It's no longer a case of an action causes a reaction, and a choice leads to a consequence. Everything is predetermined instead, so what determines it? The closest thing FFVIII has to a god is Hyne, and Hyne did not create fate, or I doubt he would have fated himself to a slice and dice end. So what determines what is fated to happen? I would ask why the people would fight if the result is predetermined, except that the fighting is predetermined too. Fate does not explain anything, it's just a way to get out of explaining anything. Fate is a fall back excuse to use when you can't think up a good reason for something to happen.

Well, I think I'll quit here for now. Understand, I am not arguing these points to prove/disprove the R=U theory. If Square made it all happen because of fate, then that's that. I'm just arguing why fate is not a valid explanation in my mind. You can argue that R=U because it's fate, but you'll need to get a lot more evidence than that. Right now, I'm still denying the existance of fate in FFVIII, because it would ruin the whole game for me. Granted, the plot will unfold (almost) exactly the same each time I play, but that is not fate (it is technical restrictions combined with the fact that the game is telling a story), and there is such a thing as to taking an idea too far. If I am ever convinced that fate exists in the game, I doubt I will ever play it again. Why should Squall fight if the result is the same no matter what? He wouldn't, so I wouldn't have his character do that.

Um, I guess I need to learn to estimate how much longer I'm going to go on before I say "I think I'll quit here for now". Feel free to think these things over, but please don't try to convince me that fate exists in this game. You may be correct, and that may be what the designers intended, but, like I said, it would ruin the game for me. Ta ta for now!

[Sir Bahamut]

Not who/what created time. Who/what created the timeline. You have a "set in stone" timeline. What determines those events? A flip of a cosmic coin? I happen to hate the idea of fate, and could go on complaining about it for more than an hour. This was not directed specifically at you, but rather at Square, if "fate" is indeed what caused all this. Let's not bring in another arguement as to why fate does/doesn't exist. My fingers won't last that long.

In any case, it's not a question relevant to the topic, as we don't have any possible ways of even beginning to answer the question.

Flawed. If time is set in stone, then going back in time and doing anything, including handing off powers, should be immpossible. Why should Ultimecia's handing her power off to Edea be part of this set in stone timeline, if no other time travel incidents are allowed? It makes no sense. If time is set in stone, then it is immpossible to change the past. Arguing that Ultimecia was always there to hand off her powers is only possible if you are arguing in favor of fate (and I now realize that I'll have to rail against fate at the end of this post). And even then, it is rather contradictory. If you cannot change the past, then you cannot change the past. And Ultimecia did, because if she (someone from the future) hadn't been there to hand off her powers to Edea (someone from the past), then Edea never would have had her powers. If you can't change the past, then Ultimecia should have been unable to hand her powers off to Edea, unless she was doing it in her own time. Arguing about a fixed timeline that includes time travel is about as self contradictory as you can get, in my humble opinion.

You missed the point. All timetravelling would also be set in stone, and simply be a natural part of the line of time. Because of that, Ultimecia doesn't change anything.

And again, who has said timetravel at other points isn't allowed? There could be many other events on the line of time which involved timetravelling, we just don't know about them. They would of course all be set in stone too, and thus would also not change anything.

Forgive me. I was making an assumption based off of your statements. I did not mean to say that time travel at other points is impossible, but that changing the past/future at other points is impossible. Why should Ultimecia be the only one able to effect any change on the past? I know, it's "fate", right? (Anyone notice a theme here?)

Flawed, as explained above.

1. Ellone didn't go back in time. She sent Squall and friends back instead, and since they didn't know how Ellone wanted the past changed, they couldn't do anything about it. Ultimecia went to the past herself. She knew what she wanted and how to get it.

But they had an affect on them, by giving them lots of powers. If they hadn't been in their minds, Laguna and co might not have survived the escape from that excavation site for instance.

In any case, I think Ellone realised that you can't in fact, change the past, and I'd take her word as truth. I mean, the characters speak for Square, so I'd take her saying "you can't change the past" as being serious, simply because the whole thing about wanting to change the past is such an important bit of the plot.

I have other reasons for believing fate exists, as I already mentioned, but since you specifically asked me not to, I wont argue further.

2. The time travel of Ultimecia to Edea's time to hand off her powers is actual time travel. Ultimecia went to the past. Ellone's method of time travel involves sending you back in someone else. So while her method failed to change the past, other methods may succeed.

I don't think we should seperate them. I mean, Ultimecia went back in time into Edea, and she was able to affect the world to a GREAT extent, as the game shows us. So although they are different ways of travelling to the past, they're both travelling to the past.

Of course, I have other reasons for believing the two ways are the same, as mentioned above, although I certainly aknowledge the possibility of the two being different.

As for the rest of your post concerning "fate", I won't argue against it. You're entitled to your own view on things. But personally I think it's obvious that FF8 uses the principle of fate, so I'll argue accordingly.
One thing though, I'm not saying "R=U because of fate" although that would be true, like any other event in the line of time. I DO present arguments for WHY she would become Ultimecia, just soyou don't think I'm saying "it's fate" to any question.

[Cuchulainn]

Forgive me for sounding redundant or ignorant but isn't Ultimacia going back and giving Edea her powers changing the past?

[Sir Bahamut]

I explained it in my post, but I'll repeat it anyway:

It would only be changing the past if the event in which Edea gets powers from Ultimecia was NOT set in stone. HOWEVER, I would propose that that event(and any other event involving timetravelling) was ALSO set in stone, just like any other event.

[Skyblade]

If a timeline is set in stone, then time traveling should be impossible. Period.

<-------A-------B------->

This is our timeline. If it is set in stone, then it should be immpossible for Ultimecia to go from point B to point A and give her powers to Edea. Anything else would be self contradictory. You can't travel back in time if the timeline is set in stone. Either all time traveling to go back and change the past is allowed, or none is. You're arguing that only certain events would be allowed is flawed. Of course, this again goes back to the fact that fate can prove anything. "Ultimecia was able to travel back in time and hand off her powers to Edea because she was fated to do so". Yeah, there's no way to prove/disprove that, technically. Logically, however, you offer no explanation as to why Ultimecia is able to change the past when Ellone isn't. You just say that Ultimecia is "fated" to change the past, and Ellone isn't. Some arguement. If you can't support it with any logic whatsoever, I'm not going to bother arguing with you about it.

[Sir Bahamut]

Please, I'm not the one denying all logic and coming with silly arguments. You haven't yet understood my arguments so please don't critisize them.

Firstly, you have to realise that there are several "lines of time" that we could make. We could make a personal line for Ultimecia, or for Squall, or any individual. Or we could make a general line of time encompassing all events.

Let's make a personal line for Ultimecia:

Ultimecia is born->Ultimecia rises to power->Ultimecia is defeated by Squall->Ultimecia travels to the past->Ultimecia dies.

Notice that in Ultimecia personal line, her travelling to the past is a natural part of her life. She's always moving forward in time.
Now let's make a personal line for Edea:

Edea is born->Edea becomes a sorceress at 5->Edea meets Squall and a dying Ultimecia, and takes Ultimecias powers->Edea gives powers to Rinoa-->etc.

In Edeas personal line, getting powers from Ultimecia form the future is a perfectly natural part of her life. Now let's make a general timeline:

Edea is born-->Edea becomes a sorceress at 5-->Ultimecia arrives from the future, gives Edea her powers-->Events in game ensue-->Rinoa becomes sorceress-->Party travel to future-->Party arrive from future-->future events(unknown)-->Party arrive from past-->Party kill Ultimecia-->Ultimecia travels to past-->Events after Ultimecias reign(unknown).

You have to think of ALL those events as being set in stone. To put it this way, the line of time wouldn't be perfectly smooth, but would also include all branchings from one point in time to another, like so:

................|------------|
................|.................|
Past<------|------------|---------->Future

You get the idea.

If all the events involving timetravel were thus also set in stone, Ultimecia would be just as fated to give Edea her powers, as Edea is to give her powers to Rinoa. Perhaps you're having problems grasping it due to the infinite nature of the loop. It means, as I explained in the FAQ that circularity is made perfectly possible and natural within the loop(for instance, the question on where the term SeeD originated from has no real meaning due to the circularity).

Edea would ALWAYS receive her powers from Ultimecia. All points of time exist at once, so to speak, which is why people from the future can come to the past and meddle in it, when the people they visit haven't yet seen that future come to be.

You may not like this idea, but I firmly believe it is implied in the game from Ellones statement and the other arguments you requested I not mention. You have so far made no attempts at showing why it doesn't make sense for FF8 to have fate in it except by saying you think it's stupid. So until you do, I don't intend to think otherwise just because you are having trouble grasping the arguments I'm using.

But if you still don't get it, then I'll be glad if you don't bother arguing with me anymore, as it would be futile(and it seems you're more fond of making snide remarks instead of arguing).

[Skyblade]

I'm afraid I do understand your point, it just seems to be rather illogical to me. That's quite all right though. I am not going to argue this point any more. Sorry for wasting your time. Farewell.

I had always believed that those things happened that way because that's the way the story the designers were writing went. But, since there's no way to prove that over "fate", it's pointless to argue about it.

[XoXyunalescaXoX]

this is getting sooo confusing...

im totally stupid so im getting really lost here...

can rinoa possess her past self? is that plausible? even in this game with the whole plot being as confusing as it is, it just doesnt seem right that she could go into her past self at the lunar space station and stuff, and why did she go into a coma then?

im not quite sure what i believe about this yet... and i would really like to have a more substantial evidence pointing in either direction... i hate being in the neutral side of any debate...

oh yeah, one more question... the GF's only erased the childhood memories of squall and company because they started using them so much earlier. could it just be that rinoa lost memories of that time period with squall because she didnt start using the GF's until alot later than they did? and could it also possibly just be selective amnesia?

[rubah]

Or it could be that people are trying to read too much into the game

[seiyuimore]

Guys, I have to disagree with you. The facts I used is:

1. At the end of disc 2 (Thanks to Shiva Blizzard, I finally finished disc 2 by renting the game from Blockbuster), Edea clearly said that she inherite her power NOT from Adel but from a sorcerer before Adel which I believe not as lunatic as Adel.

2. Rinoa is NOT inherite Adel's power or Ultimecia power when she went to space and released Adel. She inherited the power of sorcerer Hyena which was said by Esthar guy assistant of doctor Odine (After Ragnarok landed on the K-Desert.

So in my opinion, at the end of disc 2, Edea accidentally transfer her sorcerer power to Rinoa which has a potential to be a sorcerer, then Ultimecia used her to revive Seifer.

In my opinion as well, there are several reasons why Ultimecia couldn't control Rinoa like she controled Edea in the end of disc two till the space things:
1. Because the transfer is not complete (Rinoa's body is adjusting with the new sorcerer power), I think Ultimecia can't completely control someone who was just become a sorcerer and no nothing about it. In Edea case, Cid has said that Edea has been a sorcerer since her childhood, means she knows well about sorcerer things and I believe has done things about it. The sorcerer power that she inherited has grown deep in her.

2. She is not interested in possessing Rinoa cause she thought she only need a tool to release Adel then she will pursue Ellone again. She might think that her goal is nearly over so why bother using other people to reach the glory? Why not she takes the glory herself.

3. Edea said in the end of disc 2 that she is willingly giving herself up to Ultimecia in order to save Ellone. This means that she completely surrender to Ultimecia while in Rinoa case, she didn't know what the heck going on and she was forced to do it.

So this is my two cents. I don't know why some people still think that Edea inherited Adel's power. It is impossible to think that someone like Adel will give her power to someone's else. As impossible as Ultimacia giving her power to someone else to do her nuts job. And it is clearly stated in the game. Square soft has put it right in the game that Edea inherited her power NOT from Adel.


Oh, forgot about R=U things. . .
About R = U, I have no comment about it because Square didn't say anything about it. Even though they put Squall imagining R then suddenly her face turned to U, I think it is just merely nightmare or something .. . or hallucination because he knew Rinoa is a sorcerer and in his time, sorcerer equals to bad as well as from experience of Adel and Ultimecia and Possessed Edea and he also knew that Rinoa is the only sorcerer lives in his era so he would think that either Rinoa is Ultimecia in the future but then again it is only presumption.

About Rinoa outlive Squall, there is a theory about it.
Edea - Cid. In the ending sequence, Edea seemed younger than Cid. Cid is probably around 50 while Edea seemed still 30 or late 20 (around Laguna's age when he was galbadian soldier in dream sequence). This could make 2 theories:
a. Edea as sorcerer would age slower than Cid
b. Cid is a sugardaddy who married a lady 20 years old younger
than him. But since in disc 2 he said he grew up together with
Edea in childhood, this theory is crap.

in conclusion of my opinion, Sorcerer indeed could outlive normal human.

Rinoa outlive Squall might be happened but in my opinion. But what happened in the future, Square didn't state it so I presume, she would pass her power to other potential girl to be the next sorcerer as it should be in generations or she didn't know how to pass her power then after Squall and the others died old, she was all alone in the world with many strangers come and go then she grew nuts and become Ultimecia, who knows? she has to adjust with the future cultures, and in her mind she started to think that if past present and future could merged into one then she won't worry to lose Squall cause of the time compression things but this is only presumption. Anyway, since Square didn't state it clearly, this R = U theory is only a "Presumption" or what modern world said "Fan Fiction"

[Skyblade]

Guys, I have to disagree with you. The facts I used is:

1. At the end of disc 2 (Thanks to Shiva Blizzard, I finally finished disc 2 by renting the game from Blockbuster), Edea clearly said that she inherite her power NOT from Adel but from a sorcerer before Adel which I believe not as lunatic as Adel.

2. Rinoa is NOT inherite Adel's power or Ultimecia power when she went to space and released Adel. She inherited the power of sorcerer Hyena which was said by Esthar guy assistant of doctor Odine (After Ragnarok landed on the K-Desert.

So in my opinion, at the end of disc 2, Edea accidentally transfer her sorcerer power to Rinoa which has a potential to be a sorcerer, then Ultimecia used her to revive Seifer.

In my opinion as well, there are several reasons why Ultimecia couldn't control Rinoa like she controled Edea in the end of disc two till the space things:
1. Because the transfer is not complete (Rinoa's body is adjusting with the new sorcerer power), I think Ultimecia can't completely control someone who was just become a sorcerer and no nothing about it. In Edea case, Cid has said that Edea has been a sorcerer since her childhood, means she knows well about sorcerer things and I believe has done things about it. The sorcerer power that she inherited has grown deep in her.

2. She is not interested in possessing Rinoa cause she thought she only need a tool to release Adel then she will pursue Ellone again. She might think that her goal is nearly over so why bother using other people to reach the glory? Why not she takes the glory herself.

3. Edea said in the end of disc 2 that she is willingly giving herself up to Ultimecia in order to save Ellone. This means that she completely surrender to Ultimecia while in Rinoa case, she didn't know what the heck going on and she was forced to do it.

So this is my two cents. I don't know why some people still think that Edea inherited Adel's power. It is impossible to think that someone like Adel will give her power to someone's else. As impossible as Ultimacia giving her power to someone else to do her nuts job. And it is clearly stated in the game. Square soft has put it right in the game that Edea inherited her power NOT from Adel.

1. We know this.

2. Wrong. She is called "Hyne's descendant" by the guy, because it is a mark of respect to call a sorceress that. All sorceress powers can be traced back to Hyne. Rinoa inherited Edea's power, and then Adel's later.

[rubah]

Hyena. That's pretty good:d


This makes me wonder if none of the sorceress' ever tried to *Steal* someone else's powers. Probably couldn't be done. . . . Or COULD it?

[seiyuimore]

[QUOTE=Skyblade]1. We know this.

Some people in this discussion still said Edea inherited Adel's power, which is why I put this quote to make all clear.

Sorry about the second one then

[Sir Bahamut]

can rinoa possess her past self? is that plausible?

Well, I would say it is possible. I reckon the younger Rinoa would be treated as a seperate 'body', making her just as prone to possession as anyone else. Could be wrong though, but we'll never know on this subject, since it's never spoken of in the game.

If you don't find it plausible, that's fine. It's all opinions here anyway.
As for why she went into a coma, It could have been several reasons. Perhaps Ultimecia needed some time to take control over here. Perhaps Rinoas body needed time to adjust to her new sorceress powers. Perhaps booth of those. Or perhaps it was the fact that Rinoa was being possessed by herself that messed her up. Who knows?

EDIT: Hm, sorry for restating what was just said. I started typing the post a few hours ago, but left the computer. Didn't check if there had been new posts before finishing it =P

[Laugh at face of Danger]

i'm not sayin she is or she isn't just to put the record straight, and i'm no huge Rinoa fan but i have to say...wouldn't they then have to kill Rinoa instead of Ultimecia? I mean, i still cant get to grips with how the story changed so much from simply kill this, get that...
Killing Rinoa in their time would stop all the sorceress malarkey in their time, right? and then they could all relax and wait for some other generation to kill Ultimecia. Sounds a bit off to me, so I'm sayin Rinoa is Rinoa, and oh evil one with massive powers is herself too