ever heard of this?

[Shlup]

I don't see how you, D, could possibly go through this thread, reading all these posts with people saying "Sounds like something I have! Diagnose me!!" and think Ashley and I are wrong in our views.

I have dealt too many times with children who are acting differently every week because of all the drugs their parents are trying on them. I have dealt too many times with children whose behavior is acceptable because they have some disorder.

One of my favorite children, a psychopathic four-year-old, used to drive me up a wall. He was clearly very, very smart (he had just turned four and could read as well as a six-year-old), but he had terrible behavior problems.

I learned to deal with him, and he began to behave very well for me. We got along really well.

Then the doctor said he had "Asperger's Syndrome" and put him on medication, and that little boy who I had learn to deal with and appreciate completely changed. He was incredibly moody and would just go wild for no reasons. Sometimes I would have to pin him down to keep him from freaking out.

That really pissed me off.

My cousin is the same way. He has "Asperger's Syndrome" but magically behaves fine for me. I mean, yeah, he behaves innapropriately and I don't doubt that he actually has the syndrome, but that doesn't mean I should lower my expectations of him. A reason for the behavior does not excuse the behavior, and I am really tired of people acting like it does.

Neither Ashley or myself is saying that disorders and syndromes and diseases don't exist. We are simply saying that they are not excuses, and I, at least, am very tired of this victim bandwagon that people are so readily jumping on.

If I see one my post where someone says "That sounds like something I might have!" I am going to puke.

[Miriel]

When Jim Windolf, an editor of the New York Observer, collated estimates for maladies ranging from borderline personality disorder (10 million) and sex addiction (11 million) to less well-known conditions such as restless leg syndrome (12 million) he came up with the figure of 152 million. "But give experts a little time, with another qualified disorder or two, everybody in the country will officially be nuts."

152 million Americans who claimed to have some sort of psychiatric disorder. That was over half the population of the entire country at the time. =/

I gotta agree with what ShlupQuack already posted, I think people are way too eager to diagnose themselves and jump on the "victim bandwagon."

It's an injustice to the people who actually have these disorders when a bunch of perfectly healthy people run around crying wolf.

[Dr Unne]

[qq=ShlupQuack] I prefer to refer to it as "Assburger Syndrome".[/qq]

That's honestly pretty amazing. I knew some kids in school who'd poke fun at the mentally retarded kids during lunchtime, and try to get them to do things like eat bugs and dirt. I was forcefully reminded of that just now, for some reason.

[qq]If I see one my post where someone says "That sounds like something I might have!" I am going to puke.[/qq]

I agree with some other people here. You've taken your opinion far too much to the opposite extreme, to the point where you honestly sound like a jerk. I don't think you are necessarily a jerk, but you sound very much like one whenever you discuss this subject.

I think that it's silly for everyone who has any problems to claim to have a mental disease. I think that doping up your kids because they're not angels is ridiculous. I think it's wrong to make blanket statements like "Everyone here who claims to have a mental disease is wrong about it, and you all make me puke", because you're probably making at least a few genuinely ill people feel like dirt for no good reason, if not here and now, then probably some of the many other times you've voiced this opinion in the same rude and uncaring manner in the past.

[qq]Neither Ashley or myself is saying that disorders and syndromes and diseases don't exist. We are simply saying that they are not excuses, and I, at least, am very tired of this victim bandwagon that people are so readily jumping on.[/qq]

Are you saying it's an excuse for no one? I think you may as well go into a hospital full of people with spinal injuries and tell them that they should stop using it as an excuse not to walk. If you think that mental disease is not an excuse for anyone, then I say to you, could you saw off your own arm if everyone around you told you all the time it would make you feel happy? Only thing stopping you is your mind. You could do it, but I would be completely wrong to expect it to be easy for you.

I don't think that depression or shyness or lack of social skill or anxiety or anything is always automatically a mental disease. I don't think that even for people who HAVE a genuine mental problem, that it's an excuse not to be happy and successful and well-behaved. I think people need to fight to have a good life and to be a good person, no matter what circumstances they are dealt in life, no matter what they have to do to achieve it, because in the end no one has any choice but to do so. And I don't respect people who don't fight for it, even if the fight is hard. But I do respect those who do fight, even if they struggle, even if they sometimes fail, so long as they keep fighting.

I also know that it's FREAKING HARD to overcome such things sometimes, and I have sympathy for people who have to deal with it, and admiration for people who overcome it. That goes for mental problems, or any other kind of problem that people are forced to deal with at no fault of their own. Being born blind isn't an excuse to stay home and be miserable or to punch people in the face when you're riding the bus downtown, but it does warrant having a bit of patience and understanding with them when they take a longer time to cross the street than everyone else takes.

I don't feel the need to marginalize what other people go through, and I don't see the need to insult them. I think everyone has problems, and that everyone who manages to be a good person, "mentally ill" or not, deserves respect, because it ALWAYS takes effort, for everyone, no matter what. I also think that there are some people in the world who are extremely fortunate in life compared to others in some ways, and I think that a general attitude of disdain and lack of empathy for others is just as likely to make me puke as someone who claims victimhood for no reason other than laziness.

I agree with most of what you've said, but I completely disagree with how you've said it.

[Shlup]

[qq=ShlupQuack] I prefer to refer to it as "Assburger Syndrome".[/qq]

That's honestly pretty amazing. I knew some kids in school who'd poke fun at the mentally retarded kids during lunchtime, and try to get them to do things like eat bugs and dirt. I was forcefully reminded of that just now, for some reason.

Yeah, its fun. I used to tell the kids at work "Hey, assburger! Get a job!" and it made me feel big and powerful.

Actually I say that because when I first heard of the syndrome I thought that's what the person who told me about it had said, and it stuck. I now know that's not how its said or spelled, and if you think me saying that is as bad as making retarded kids eat dirt then I really have nothing more to say about it.

[qq=ShlupQuack]If I see one my post where someone says "That sounds like something I might have!" I am going to puke.[/qq]

I agree with some other people here. You've taken your opinion far too much to the opposite extreme, to the point where you honestly sound like a jerk. I don't think you are necessarily a jerk, but you sound very much like one whenever you discuss this subject.

I think that it's silly for everyone who has any problems to claim to have a mental disease. I think that doping up your kids because they're not angels is ridiculous. I think it's wrong to make blanket statements like "Everyone here who claims to have a mental disease is wrong about it, and you all make me puke", because you're probably making at least a few genuinely ill people feel like dirt for no good reason, if not here and now, then probably some of the many other times you've voiced this opinion in the same rude and uncaring manner in the past.

I didn't say everyone was wrong about it, I said I'm tired of hearing it. If I sound like a jerk, well, it happens. Don't even try to tell me you never sound like a jerk when you're annoyed.

If anyone who has discovered the reason they're akward thanks to this thread and gets diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome, feel free to email me about it and I'll write you a letter of apology. Or something.

[qq=ShlupQuack][qq]Neither Ashley or myself is saying that disorders and syndromes and diseases don't exist. We are simply saying that they are not excuses, and I, at least, am very tired of this victim bandwagon that people are so readily jumping on.[/qq]

Are you saying it's an excuse for no one? I think you may as well go into a hospital full of people with spinal injuries and tell them that they should stop using it as an excuse not to walk. If you think that mental disease is not an excuse for anyone, then I say to you, could you saw off your own arm if everyone around you told you all the time it would make you feel happy? Only thing stopping you is your mind. You could do it, but I would be completely wrong to expect it to be easy for you.

Yes, because refusing to believe that any "mental disorder" will hold me back in my life is the exact same thing as finding happiness in self-amputation. I don't recall saying anything about life being easy. Its people who are trying to make it easy through over-medicating their children or selves that is the problem.

also know that it's FREAKING HARD to overcome such things sometimes, and I have sympathy for people who have to deal with it, and admiration for people who overcome it. That goes for mental problems, or any other kind of problem that people are forced to deal with at no fault of their own. Being born blind isn't an excuse to stay home and be miserable or to punch people in the face when you're riding the bus downtown, but it does warrant having a bit of patience and understanding with them when they take a longer time to cross the street than everyone else takes.

I really don't think that has anything to do with my point. My point was not "People with mental disorders are completely normal!" My point was that people are quick to play the victim, and quick to look for the easy way out, which is generally taking a bunch of pills. Yes, its harder to deal with a disorder than to deal with nothing. As I said about one of the boy's I've dealt with who was diagnosed with Asperger's, he used to drive me up the wall before I learned how to deal with him. Even then, he would act up, but I was understanding and we got along very well. It wasn't until his parents decided it would be easier to drug him that there was a real problem.

I don't feel the need to marginalize what other people go through, and I don't see the need to insult them. I think everyone has problems, and that everyone who manages to be a good person, "mentally ill" or not, deserves respect, because it ALWAYS takes effort, for everyone, no matter what. I also think that there are some people in the world who are extremely fortunate in life compared to others in some ways, and I think that a general attitude of disdain and lack of empathy for others is just as likely to make me puke as someone who claims victimhood for no reason other than laziness.

I don't mean to marginalize the trials and tribulations of others. We all have problems in our lives and, so it would seem, we could all benefit from getting a nice strong perscription. We can't please everyone all the time, so I don't mean to disrespect anyone in particular by what I've said, but I have a rather strong opinion on the matter and I am in a bad place about it so I am likely to sound like a jerk. And don't you tell me that I should keep my mouth shut if I can't be nice 'cause I hate it when you do that!

And I don't think its fair to classify me as some wonderfully fortunate person who is looking down on people I know nothing about as though I know nothing about mental disorders, as if I've never dealt with them, as if I'm so mentally stable all the time and couldn't possibly know what its like to just want some pills to make it all go away.

My family history has a lot of "mental illness" and my dad has been on perminant disability for mental illness for years (that's a whooole different story). I've had letters written home recommending that I see a professional on more than one occasion (two occasions, actually). I don't want to go. I don't want a label, and I don't want pills. I'm doing fine as I am. Judge me all you want, and I apologise for being a jerk, but this kind of stuff hits a little close to home and, no, I will not just refrain from stating my opinion for the sake of not hurting anyone's feelings.

And if I am hurting anyone in particular's feelings, you are welcome to say so.

I agree with most of what you've said, but I completely disagree with how you've said it.

What else is new.

[The Captain]

This has obviously touched a nerve with many people.

I suppose, we can all offer unique perspectives because we've had to grapple with the circumstances in different lights. For someone who studies or has a deep interest in helping those with mental disorders or with how the mind works, which is what I think you study Shlup, I may be wrong, I can see how your views certainly come into play, as well as Ashley's. Our culture has become increasing obsessed with quick-fixes, with as little effort as possible so long as the end result is something better, even if it's not the long-term answer.

Yet, I can also see where Dr. Unne and Dave are coming from as well. The real problem is, the middle ground is the toughest place to take because some will always cry for more drugs, more medicine, whilst others will say more individual responsibility and pressure needs to be enforced and drugs should be used to enhance one's recovery not be the only means toward that recovery.

Granted, I'd wager most people do not suffer from a mental disease, and if they truly do the research, they'll see that they may be going through some form of momentary trouble, but are not actually afflicted, but how do you get people to actually do the research?

The more open, frank discussions, and exchange of ideas and experiences, the better in my book. So long as we can also attempt to see other sides, I think we all benefit. I'm as guilty as anyone in that regard, and it's something I have to work on myself. Hopefully, the more open debate I hear, the more it'll help me grow as a person.

Take care all.

[Roogle]

I'd just like to say that I agree completely with ShlupQuack and TheAbominatrix. Lately, it's been a known issue in the medical community, so they aren't completely off base or trying to strike a nerve.

The whole situation with people wanting to be quick to play the victim reminds me of an episode of The Cosby Show where it was finally revealed that Theo Huxtable had dyslexia, and that's why he was never good at school. It was an instant fix to an ongoing problem with him, and everything just seemed to become great after he was diagnosed. The Cosby Show and a lot of the characters are based off of Bill Cosby's real family; that being said, this actually happened in some form. Doesn't everyone want something like that, in a way? It's easy to want to place the blame for something that's not going so well on a medical disorder, and people do it all the time, whether intentionally or through the support of overdiagnosing doctors.

I sleep at weird times. Do I have a sleeping disorder? Probably not. If I went to a doctor, described my problem, and they said I probably had a sleeping order and diagnosed me with one, I would just sleep anytime I wanted and say, "Oh, whoops, sleeping disorder." That's the kind of thing they're talking about, not people that actually suffer from it and TRULY have it.

It's hard to tell exactly who's got a real disorder and who doesn't, that's all.

[Big D]

I *know* we live in an increasingly blameless society where people in general, and parents in particular, don't want to take any responsibility for anything. Media, mental health and medication are such handy scapegoats.

I don't see how you, D, could possibly go through this thread, reading all these posts with people saying "Sounds like something I have! Diagnose me!!" and think Ashley and I are wrong in our views.

Blaming social awkwardness on Asperger's is a bit of a blind leap, yes. But suppose a member said, "hey, I can never remember if October is before February or what day comes after Tuesday. I might have that syndrome." I doubt you'd be so quick to boil.

My cousin is the same way. He has "Asperger's Syndrome" but magically behaves fine for me. I mean, yeah, he behaves innapropriately and I don't doubt that he actually has the syndrome, but that doesn't mean I should lower my expectations of him. A reason for the behavior does not excuse the behavior, and I am really tired of people acting like it does.

Whoever said it excused the behaviour? It explains it, sure, and explains why it might be more difficult to manage, but it doesn't make it OK or anything. People with Asperger's Syndrome have, statistically, much lower rates of success with romantic relationships. If a guy with A.S. doesn't find a girlfriend, this can rightly be blamed in part on his inherently greater social difficulties. It's not necessarily his fault that he has those difficulties. Problems with overcoming those difficulties may arise from the same source. Someone who could easily become more sociable but simply can't be bothered has no real excuse, whether or not they're mildly autistic. My point is that a genetic disorder may be a contributing factor in why a person is the way they are.

Asperger's Syndrome is a genuine disorder that affects some people; behavioural problems are a possible effect of the disorder. If that behaviour annoys you, that's understandable. But blaming the person in question would be like blaming them for being unable to remember sequences.

Imagine if a math teacher said, "I have this 17-year-old in my class who can't learn long division. He just refuses to take anything in, and that really irritates me. His parents won't take any responsibility for his slack attitude to learning, and this doctor of theirs just says that the kid has "a mental age of five", and acts like this label makes it OK for the kid to behave the way he does."

That was a deliberately extreme example, and I'm definitely not suggesting that what has been said is anything like that at all. However, I don't feel it is fair to disregard genuine psychological/genetic factors responsible for certain behaviour just because that behaviour makes life more difficult for us.[q=Roogle]I sleep at weird times. Do I have a sleeping disorder? Probably not. If I went to a doctor, described my problem, and they said I probably had a sleeping order and diagnosed me with one, I would just sleep anytime I wanted and say, "Oh, whoops, sleeping disorder."[/q]If you were diagnosed with a sleeping disorder, then you'd have at least some kind of onus to do something about it, if anything was indeed possible. You can't drive around in a car with a flat tyre, then blame the tyre when you crash. That's the difference between "explanation" and "excuse".

[Shlup]

Blaming social awkwardness on Asperger's is a bit of a blind leap, yes. But suppose a member said, "hey, I can never remember if October is before February or what day comes after Tuesday. I might have that syndrome." I doubt you'd be so quick to boil.

You're right, I wouldn't be as annoyed. I'm not unreasonable. My rage is very situational.

And I consider myself to be quite understanding in most circumstances. Its when we fall into the realm of "victim" that I get annoyed. Did I ever say "I've dealt with kids who supposedly have Aspurger's Syndrome but its really just that they're parents suck and its all bull!" No, I said that the kids still act up but I can deal with them fine without medicating them, which, from my experiences, completely changes who they are which really, really upsets me.

A very large percentage of my friends were on some kind of medication, most for "depression." That, in most cases at least, is total bull. They're teenagers! Depression and moodswings comes in right along with the B.O. and extra hair. It was in high school that I realized everyone can get medicated for something. All you have to do is yell out "Poor me!" and you got youself a bottle.

And, yes, this is my area of study, though I wont have any degrees for another year. Thank you for remembering, Cappy. :-*

[nik0tine]

All you have to do is yell out "Poor me!" and you got youself a bottle.

I agree with this statement. When I said that this sounds like something that I might have, I mean that it certainly sounds like me sometimes. I realize, however, that I cannot blame my problems on a disorder. If I have a problem it's my fault, and my responsibility to fix it. I would never, ever go on medication for something like this. That's just absurd.

[Shlup]

I agree with this statement. When I said that this sounds like something that I might have, I mean that it certainly sounds like me sometimes. I realize, however, that I cannot blame my problems on a disorder. If I have a problem it's my fault, and my responsibility to fix it. I would never, ever go on medication for something like this. That's just absurd.

I'm glad you said that 'cause you were on my list of people that deserved a little flick on the ear.

Yeah, to be honest, Aspurger's sounds like something I could have too. I could even go as far as to say I struggle with the days of the week and the months, but I will continue to contribute that to me being just plain not good with remembering stuff like that, and my poor social skills have to do with... poor social skills.

A lot of people at this board probably have symptoms of this syndrome. Lets face it, we're just nerds.

[Roogle]

If you were diagnosed with a sleeping disorder, then you'd have at least some kind of onus to do something about it, if anything was indeed possible. You can't drive around in a car with a flat tyre, then blame the tyre when you crash. That's the difference between "explanation" and "excuse".

Yeah, I'm saying that it would be nice to turn an "excuse" into an "explanation".

Here's a very simple way to put it. I'm tired of seeing, "Suzie's been so sad lately; let's put her on Zoloft." Maybe Suzie's really, really sad and she has a history of depression in her family, or maybe Suzie's just doing it for attention or is just in a slump lately. What ShlupQuack, TheAbominatrix, and I are saying is that doctors are quick to put Suzie on Zoloft right away, even though she's just sad that her boyfriend broke up with her. The same is true for a lot of social disorders. It's really not a new thing; people are writing books about it as we speak!

And that, as they say, is that.

[TheAbominatrix]

Well said, Mandee and Elgoor. <3

They spoke well for me, and this is what I was talking about. The quick fix situations in our world. Everyone is so eager to get on pills. My mom has been trying to get me on anti-depressants for ages. Which could be a good idea, considering the long history of mental illness of her side of the family. But I dont want pills. I dont want to blame every mood swing I have on some stigma that's been asigned to me, and it really gets to me, as it does to Mandee, when people are so quick to assign themselves problems, and use that as a sort of safety blanket. Not all disorders are stigmas, especially not to teenagers. It's almost chique.

It reminds me of that episode of the Simpsons. All the boys are on the jungle gym and they're talking about what they're 'on'. "I'll trade you for some Claritin!" "Claritin D?" "No." "I'll pass."

And yes I realize Claritin is for allergies xP

[Destai]

So you're against people hiding from there problems? Then whats with this "assburger" mocking? Thats taking it out on the people who actually have problems.

[TheAbominatrix]

If you took the time to read what both Shlup and I said, you wouldnt have to ask that. Read what she said about "Assburger". She explains to clearly. We both, and Roogle as well, explained our position multiple times.

[Shlup]

So you're against people hiding from there problems? Then whats with this "assburger" mocking? Thats taking it out on the people who actually have problems.

Its not like I go around telling people that's what their syndrome is called or calling people names.

Don't act like you've never mocked anything before.