Touche. But I call you out on the grounds of faulty analogy, because Peta never killed anybody. They have to go to the extremes that they do because otherwise they wouldn't make the impact they have.
Touche. But I call you out on the grounds of faulty analogy, because Peta never killed anybody. They have to go to the extremes that they do because otherwise they wouldn't make the impact they have.
I don't know whats going on anymore. Whoa, 7 pages and this was all my doing. *sigh*
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here this is the War room"
Recognized Member
Don't worry about it, Wiegrahf42. There are a couple of these threads every year, each one with a bit of a different twist to it.
Hello Pika Art by Dr Unne ~~~ godhatesfraggles
I said something very similar, earlier in the thread.Originally Posted by Omnitarian
It's nice to be overlooked for a change.
And it's quite possible to buy eggs that are TRULY free range, and produce that is really organic. Buy them from produce stands. Most cities have small, family operated stands, the merchandise of which comes from other family in farm country. You just have to be willing to ask questions.
Signature by rubah. I think.
"Then why do you eat plants? It's all a subjective sliding scale of what's moral."
There's a difference between eating a plant and killing all plants, wouldn't you agree?
"He's a dog and the only reason he doesn't piss and in your house is because you rubbed his nose in it, and conditioned him to want to go else where."
I have to say this: that's a horrible and ineffective way of training a puppy. Children are toilet trained to, so whatever.
"save for ones with mental defects and children, who we need to protect"
And why do we need to protect them, but kill other species of less intelligence?
"Harm principle logic already shows that killing plants is wrong, same with animals."
But you're not hurting plants, because they don't feel pain.
"E_A's logic already shows that I'm perfectly able to kill plants that feel nothing yet die anyway, but plants serve human goals and ends and therefore unlike animals, we ought to preserve plants but not eat animals to fuel human goals and ends (see the hypocrisy?)."
No, because the different is PAIN. I ALREADY said that.
"Or maybe there's an unspoken premise that things that don't feel pain don't deserve moral consideration."
It's not only that they don't feel pain, they don't feel, period. And I didn't say they didn't deserve moral consideration. Of course they do, but humans can't just eat nothing, can they? That's immoral. So we eat plants, because that's LIMITING the suffering, which is all a person can do. You're using my words to jump to huge conclusions.
"Sure it doesn't coincide with the 'vegans and vegetarians are better than everybody else and they have to tell us about it' argument, but morals was never about making you feel good."
And you eat meat because it makes you feel good, so whatever. This is a really moot point. Besides that, veggies tell people about it because they want to save lives.
"humans really are just animals- no better, no worse- and thus, the concept of morality, as it is alien to animal nature, is something that we should reject because we're not GOOD enough to be moral. And you cannot hold us to different standards than any other lifeform."
I ALREADY argued against this like 3 pages ago! Geez. To sum it up: Just because we aren't better doesn't mean we aren't different. Our intelligence makes us different, and it's our intelligence that lets us have morals. Besides that, animals can and do have morals, in the wild, and the ones we teach them, just not to the same degree.
"If we're only animals, like you say, then your entire point is moot because ANY definition of morality or compassion is just more chemicals giving us commands, and no more good or bad than the desire to eat or have sex. Ours to obey or ignore as we desire."
Why does it matter what morality is, whether it's an incredibly complex set of neurons firing, or a soul? It exists, and that's the important part.
"Yep, by burning down buildings, sending death threats, and giving a congradulations letter to that canibal guy. THAT is really great of them, isn't it."
Nice to see you're ONLY focusing on the very few and very negative aspects.
I know plants are just as cautious and self aware of themselves as animals are it irritates me when some stupid veggiterian says that they aren't aware and it isn't the same thing.You know life is life and i think veggies people are fine but I have to eat both meat and vegetables.Then you got those veggie people who htink that people who eat meat only eat meat.IF that was true then only the veggies would be alive today.
note humans need to eat both meat and vegetables in order to survive.The only reason why veggies can stay pretty much healthy is because of a thing called protein pills.But yeah we need both meat and veggies to survive and people just don't seem to get that especially veggiterians.
As if you're focussing on the positive aspects of my stance? Don't preach what you don't practice, please.
And of COURSE it matters what morality is. How could it NOT matter. It goes to the core of what could be defined as moral or immoral. If morality is only a nuerological condition, then we have no reason to obey it. EVER. The only things left would be logic and biology.
One, we'd do well to consider, the other we must maintain, and neither supports your claims very well. Your entire argument is based on the premise of emotion- emotions that, if we are just animals, end up being just lies.
I am more than just a biological machine, though I'm very pleased I have one to call my own, it is NOT who I am. I am not an animal (though I've been called one on occasions) I am more than that, animals are not more than that, end of story.
Oh, and there is no such thing as seperate but equal. That's been proven every time it's come up. The only true way to create equality is to take everything from everyone- and that, I'm sure we can ALL agree, is wrong.
:::EDIT:::
Umm... Blazer, you can find plants that provide protiens (oh how I hate correcting my own side... it's depressing). I believe soy beans are an example, but I'm not a nutritionist, I might be wrong. Although, you're absolutely right on (some) plants having responsive attempts to protect their own lives. Survival instincts exist in things as small as single-celled organisms.
Last edited by udsuna; 03-05-2005 at 10:21 PM.
What you still can't rationalise properly is that you are killing and eating what you kill. If you think killing things that can't feel pain is okay, let's just kill all the braindead hospitalised people on life support -- they're not feeling pain. Or if we're killing some plants but not killing them indescriminantly, then you're just doing whatever you want to further the human race, and that now justifies eating meat. Oh wait, so it's pain bad, killing non-pain good, but not too much, because it hurts others, but then I can still blow up buildings and make people lose jobs because in the end of the day animals have more rights than humans.
Oh wait, I'm being flippant. I should eat vegetables and say 'they don't feel pain. I have no guilt'. Screw that.
I wouldn't be able to provide any intellegent covnersation, even if I wanted to, because South Park has forever impressioned me that PETA are animal-marrying extremist. But, arsoning and killing other humans just to prove an extreme point isn't good. That's bad.(That was semi-intellegent, I guess...)
Recognized Member
Good thing that PETA hasn't killed any human beings then, isn't it?
Burning a few buildings in not much in comparison to a life of misery. A crime, yes, but only in the monetary sense.
Hello Pika Art by Dr Unne ~~~ godhatesfraggles
PETA is not a police or government organisation. Blowing up buildings is arson and destruction of property. They are wrong.
Yeah soy beans are kewl i ove htose soy bean hamburgers.You know the ones that schools try to pass off as a real burger lol.I knwo certain plants have protein but we need other things that meat can provide for us like fat.But you know I jsut hate the folks who say "people who eat meat only eat meat and nothing else."You know that pisses me off mainly because the people who only eat meet are the idiot who end up dying for eating too much meat.As if you're focussing on the positive aspects of my stance? Don't preach what you don't practice, please.
And of COURSE it matters what morality is. How could it NOT matter. It goes to the core of what could be defined as moral or immoral. If morality is only a nuerological condition, then we have no reason to obey it. EVER. The only things left would be logic and biology.
One, we'd do well to consider, the other we must maintain, and neither supports your claims very well. Your entire argument is based on the premise of emotion- emotions that, if we are just animals, end up being just lies.
I am more than just a biological machine, though I'm very pleased I have one to call my own, it is NOT who I am. I am not an animal (though I've been called one on occasions
Oh, and there is no such thing as seperate but equal. That's been proven every time it's come up. The only true way to create equality is to take everything from everyone- and that, I'm sure we can ALL agree, is wrong.
:::EDIT:::
Umm... Blazer, you can find plants that provide protiens (oh how I hate correcting my own side... it's depressing). I believe soy beans are an example, but I'm not a nutritionist, I might be wrong. Although, you're absolutely right on (some) plants having responsive attempts to protect their own lives. Survival instincts exist in things as small as single-celled organisms.
I did a project on ratehr plants are aware of there surroundings.I set two plants up right. one in light and anothe rplant that was just outside of the light.The plant that wasn't in the light slowly but surely move towards that window(grew.).I mean what made teh plant want to grow in that direction if they aren't aware of there envriroment.We had this peach tree that was planted right next to the house.Noy ou know the roof and stuff kinda hangs over the house a bit.So the tree while it was growing literally made itself a hump like thing I'l have to take a pic and show you but it gave it enoguh space so it wouldn't hit the roof while it was growing.
We call that 'mechanical instinct' and that justifies cruelty to plants. I hope that wasn't too blunt, but I'm supporting what I seem to gather from your position that plants aren't just 'non-feeling-alive-things'.
Yeah lol I know they'll say that and that.But You know what I can tell those veggies and everyone else who wants to understand why we have to kill our things for us to eat it.Watch The Lion King.
Continually saying that is not going to make it right.
lordblazer, plants don't have brains or any of the inner systems animals have that gives them cognizance. They don't have senses--they cannot see, hear, touch, smell, or taste--nor do they communicate. They are not self aware.
Mike, that's called euthanasia. Lots of people support it.
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