Not trying to be a troll, but PETA scares me...

[MecaKane]

What's reasonable to you may be unreasonable to some.
The same way what I was suggesting you to do was unreasonable for you, but there are many people already doing it.

[udsuna]

For christ's sake, OTHER animals don't know better, but we do, because we're more intelligent. How is this hard to grasp? Animals differ in many ways. Cheetehs are fast runner, squirrels can climb, fish can swim, and humans are smart. It doesn't make any of them not animals just because they possess a trait or act in a different way than other animals.

Thank you for the concession that humans are superior, or are you going to tell my I mis-read you saying WE know better? I think knowing better, on a moral level- not an intellectual one- is a good definition of WHY we're better.

And I already said that animals do have some morality. Are you just not reading my posts at all now?

Only the parts of them that are just laughably unprovable. I've been around a LOT of creatures in my life- and the only ones that seem to care about anything but themselves and (sometimes SOME) other members of their own species are humans, dolphins, and apes. Oh, and occasionally you can trick an animal into adopting another species as a baby.

"So it's safe to assume you eat one meal a day? And don't live in a house in the city, or drive a car? Or do anything else that isn't a compelte necessity for survival?"

Within reason. Expecting me to live in a hole is not reasonable. Hence why the saying is limiting the suffering and not no suffering whatsoever.

Yes, you and I SHOULD live in holes, if your ideal is held to. All the trees and whatnot that we ripped up to make our homes cost hundred of animals homes, and probably lives as well. I know (some of) the treatment processes that wood undergoes- nothing survives THAT, and plenty of insects were comfortably at home in that wood before we poisoned and cooked and bleached them. At LEAST dozens of animals per human being even capable of residing in the home constructed.
And brick homes do the same thing to soil dwellers. All housing would need be made of metal to even "limit" the suffering.

[udsuna]

udsuna, just because you're incapable of morality don't say every other person is too. I'm an animal and I don't eat other animals because I know it's wrong. You're getting extremely irritating with this repeating the same nonsensical point over and over.

Hey, I'm perfectly capable of morality. I'm quite happy with my code of right/wrong and my sence of honor. If I were just an animal, I would be incapable of those things, because animals are incapable of higher concepts. THAT's the point "nonsensical" point. Sorry it's beyond your grasp... at least Aeris gets what I'm saying, even if she disagrees. You aren't even getting that far along.

[Tokki Wartooth]

What's reasonable to you may be unreasonable to some.

But how is not eating meat unreasonable by any standard? We've already established that the only benefit one gets from eating meat is pleasure for the taste, and while it may not be easy to give that up, it's definitely reasonable.

[udsuna]

But how is not eating meat unreasonable by any standard? We've already established that the only benefit one gets from eating meat is pleasure for the taste, and while it may not be easy to give that up, it's definitely reasonable.

It's unreasonable because it's a lot of effort for something that I can't imagine being worth it. It's JUST animals, animals that wouldn't do the same for us if positions were reversed. I consider it *REALLY* unreasonable to give time and effort to something that doesn't deserve it, and still get nothing in return.

[Emerald Aeris]

"Thank you for the concession that humans are superior, or are you going to tell my I mis-read you saying WE know better? I think knowing better, on a moral level- not an intellectual one- is a good definition of WHY we're better."

So from a cheetah's perspective, let's say, because we can't run as fast, cheetahs are better than us? It's an arbitrary criteria!! Why is intelligence the deciding factor? There is no reason that's not completely subjective.

I have nothing more to say here. I've been ignored, insulted, and I've repeated myself again and again. I'm done.

[udsuna]

So from a cheetah's perspective, let's say, because we can't run as fast, cheetahs are better than us? It's an arbitrary criteria!! Why is intelligence the deciding factor? There is no reason that's not completely subjective.

I have nothing more to say here. I've been ignored, insulted, and I've repeated myself again and again. I'm done.

Yep, from a cheetah's perspective, it is better. Hell, it might even be right. And, if I'm introduced to a wild cheetah, and it's hungry, it's going to KILL AND EAT me. So, the idea of "better" is selfish, but all life is selfish, that's part of living- caring enough about yourself to not die.

But you and I are on the same page that our morality is an important and special aspect of us. You say, that makes us "special" so that as we know the harm we cause, we should seek to prevent it where possible. I say it makes us "special" so that we get special privileges, but should take care not to abuse them. For that is bad, and could lead to the downfall of our species.

And I'll miss you - it's hard finding debating opponents with the intelligence to hold their own . Now all I'll have is the self-proclaimed whore to banter with. And she's a mean person .

[YukiKiro]

okay, well, first of all if cave people didn't hunt and kill animals for food, they wouldn't have survived and we wouldn't be alive today. second, meat is a sourse of protien that is needed for our bodies to function and so long as the kill is swift there is nothing i find wrong with killing for food. also, i do not believe that animals were put on this planet only for us to eat, contrary to what some vegitarians and vegans may believe just because i eat meat, that's not it. i do believe that animals are a very beautiful part of this planet, and that they should be treated with respect, i mean even a lion can sit with a heard of buffalo and not kill. that brings me to another point. there are animals out there who kill for food, but because we can reason and we use logic that makes it so we can't eat meat? use that logic and reason and have someone hit you in the head with a large trout. if animals can reason, they already have, survival of the fittest, they do what is needed to survive, and if that includes killing to feed themselves and their young, then they do that. jeeze.

[Leeza]

I have nothing more to say here. I've been ignored, insulted, and I've repeated myself again and again. I'm done.

I commend you for staying this long.

[udsuna]

I can honestly say the exact same thing- do I get a commendation for staying?

[lordblazer]

"I know plants are just as cautious and self aware of themselves as animals are it irritates me when some stupid veggiterian says that they aren't aware and it isn't the same thing."

Where's your evidence?

"note humans need to eat both meat and vegetables in order to survive.The only reason why veggies can stay pretty much healthy is because of a thing called protein pills."

You are so very wrong. Vegetarians don't have to take protein pills.

"If morality is only a nuerological condition, then we have no reason to obey it. EVER."

That doesn't make sense. I believe my emotions are just chemical reactions. Does that mean I love my family any less? Of course not. I believe morality is just a result of how I feel about society etc... not a result of soul or whatever. Does that make it any less wrong to me? No!

"Oh, and there is no such thing as seperate but equal. That's been proven every time it's come up."

No, it's just been restated again and again.

"If you think killing things that can't feel pain is okay, let's just kill all the braindead hospitalised people on life support -- they're not feeling pain."

That's not limiting the suffering, now it is? It would upset families. Besides, we're talking about food sources, so this is a bit ridiculously, huh?

"Or if we're killing some plants but not killing them indescriminantly, then you're just doing whatever you want to further the human race, and that now justifies eating meat."

No, see, the second part is wrong for the reason you JUST SAID. Justifying eating meat would not happen because causing pain is wrong.

"but then I can still blow up buildings and make people lose jobs because in the end of the day animals have more rights than humans."

Argh, can you stop putting words in my mouth?? When did I say that was ok?

"I knwo certain plants have protein but we need other things that meat can provide for us like fat."

No we don't. No. NO. We can live perfectly healthily without meat. I know many vegans. I have talked to doctors. I'm majoring in health sciences. Please accept you're wrong.

"I did a project on ratehr plants are aware of there surroundings."

So what? That doesn't mean they're aware and can feel pain. It means they have light-sensitive cells that control their direction of growth.

I will summarize. again.

Eating meat is wrong, because we don't need to, and it causes pain. Eating plants is ok, because we have to eat something, and they don't feel pain, and aren't aware, can't feel, etc (braindead people usually have at least SOME sort of awareness, or they'd be dead). it's not ok to destroy all plants because plants do good things, and it's wrong to destroy ANYTHING more than you need to.

I liked how youd idnt read my other post stating that I understand there are plants with proteins also but hey go ahead and do your twisting and turning of peoples previous statements ebfore they actually thought it out and changed there mind yep we are all static here.

edit-udsuna dolphins are moral creatures so are dogs and wolves.

[udsuna]

edit-udsuna dolphins are moral creatures so are dogs and wolves.

Really? I've no reason to believes canines are (I love my doggies, but I don't think they're moral)- but I've mentioned dolphins before in prior posts. And pointed out that I only eat dolphin-safe tuna. Anything that goes out of it's way to save the lives of strangers is a fellow spiritual being. Dolphins are the firefighters of the ocean. Wether keeping us from drowning or fending off sharks, or just cheering us up- they're wonderful.

[Tokki Wartooth]

I can honestly say the exact same thing- do I get a commendation for staying?

No, because you haven't debated anywhere near intelligently.

I'm done too. Eat all the meat you want. I'm just glad I'm not you.

[lordblazer]

Really? I've no reason to believes canines are (I love my doggies, but I don't think they're moral)- but I've mentioned dolphins before in prior posts. And pointed out that I only eat dolphin-safe tuna. Anything that goes out of it's way to save the lives of strangers is a fellow spiritual being. Dolphins are the firefighters of the ocean. Wether keeping us from drowning or fending off sharks, or just cheering us up- they're wonderful.

until they take a crap in the water then splash it on ya.Thats how they get there kicks.

edit-the ugy above me people who EAT MEAT DONT JUST EAT MEAT ONLY GET IT IN YOUR SMALL STUPID PURNY BRAIN THAT WE EAT BOTH MEAT AND VEGGIES SO WHAT JUST BECAUSE YOU JUST EAT VEGGIES DOESNT MEAN TEHRE ARE PEOPLE WHO CAN SURVIVE BY JUST BY EATING MEAT.THEY CAN'T.

edit- BTW emerald we do need meat meat like poltry lamb and fish is really good for you but beef and pork isn't.Plus I love eating Bison every once in a while.Meat gives us strength.We rely on the strength and energy meat gives us.WE can survive but i don't think we'll have as much strength without meat.To say we can live without meat is ok but its really impossible we need both.You don't understand a thing uh emerald aeris.Oh well you'll never know because your too bias anyway and you jump to conclusions pretty fast.

[YukiKiro]

I'm done too. Eat all the meat you want. I'm just glad I'm not you.

so you're saying i should feel guilty that i eat meat. okay, and that goes along real well with the fact that i believe in god . oh, btw, did i mention they eat meat in the bible ALL THE TIME? i'm not trying to turn this into a god thread, i'm just saying the chances of me stopping my consumption of meat products is microscopic at best.