You know, comparing animals to children has been so overdone lately. Don't you have any BETTER analogies than between an unintelligent beast that has reached the limit of it's potential, and a being that will one day help shape the world itself?
You know, comparing animals to children has been so overdone lately. Don't you have any BETTER analogies than between an unintelligent beast that has reached the limit of it's potential, and a being that will one day help shape the world itself?
For the love of god, is equating animals to children all vegitarians know how to do?
Ok, here we go. Children will grow up, into adults. Animals will not become smart, be able to talk, or have any effect on the earth at all in each of their lifetimes.
edit: udsuna beat me to it.
Okay, so let me understand your reasoning: every animal is unintelligent? But humans are animals? Hmm!
I like how you say animals are no better than machines, though. That was good. Not ignorant at all.
And what a great effect we have on the earth. I can't decide whether I like the holes in the ozone layer or the destroyed rainforests better, personally
And it's pretty clear MecaKane was joking. If it was really all about physical appearance, humans would be the first things gone (right after spiders).
And how do you know they don't? Many animals choose mates based on song, or displays of feathers/crests/whatever. The prettier, the more likely the male is to get a mate. It doesn't make sense to say that they choose mates based on something other than beauty in those cases.Originally Posted by DocFrance
Umm... when you define a machine as a tool used to achieve a goal more easily, then YES, every organic form is a machine. Seems pretty informed (the antonym of ignorant) to me.
We're clothed in the form of an animal. I think our landing on the moon and unlocking the secret of the atom prove that we're something more than *JUST* an animal. Maybe I'm wrong. Of course, the whole dropping of *THE BOMB* proved that we're not completely above our bestial pasts.
Of COURSE he was joking. So was I.... humor can be worked against your side, as well as for it, you know.
"That benefit, as I said before, is time and energy. We kill and eat animals, it more quickly provides for us certain nutritional values that we need. We COULD get it from plantlife, but that requires considerations that, quite frankly, are annoying."
Uh, no, actually plants are much more efficient. The body runs best on glucose, and protein is made up of amino acids, and metabolizing those doesn't utilize nearly as much energy, and it produces harmful wastes, like ammonia!
What's easier, picking and eating an apple, or killing a cow?
"And you say "ignorant" like an insult. By definition, though, "unaware" does apply well."
Ignorant DOES mean unaware. I didn't mean it as an insult.
"Oh, and while we're at it, what makes animals so much better than plants that we're allowed to harm the latter even if it's wrong to harm the former?"
Animals feel pain and anguish. That's the difference. They don't function on instinct alone, period. That is a fact.
"You know, comparing animals to children has been so overdone lately. Don't you have any BETTER analogies than between an unintelligent beast that has reached the limit of it's potential, and a being that will one day help shape the world itself?"
Why does it matter that they WILL be more intelligent? You could argue that eventually animals will evolve and become smarter, but no. What matters is that you're justifying their pain via saying they're unintelligent, which is ignorant, frankly.
Why the hell does it matter that children will become intelligent?? So you have a retarded child, who will never assist anyone. The point is that you're arguing it's ok to use those who are weaker and not as smart as we are.
"Just" an animal. Ugh.
If you need to ask that question, then there is no way you could ever possibly understand. By your appearant logic, does that mean beastiality is approximately as acceptable as interacial relationships? Y'know, because there's these ponies in my yard....
I just disgusted myself, I'll shut up now.
EDIT: Thank you Mr. Meca for going through the trouble of destroying the second half of that. Glad I have some support, listening to this all alone gets tedious at best. Amusing, though... and kinda sad... so many people who care so much about animals, why can't they help to perfect the human race before moving to lesser considerations?
Last edited by udsuna; 03-03-2005 at 08:03 PM.
"Why does it matter that they WILL be more intelligent? You could argue that eventually animals will evolve and become smarter, but no. What matters is that you're justifying their pain via saying they're unintelligent, which is ignorant, frankly."
THAT one won't, it's a cow who adds nothing to the world. And if it is allowed to have offspring, before it's killed in the most humane way, nothing is stopping its species' eventual evolutionary process.
You're completely missing the point! You're taking the wrong part of the analogy and dissecting it to bits. The point is that you're justifying using the weak and unintelligent.
No, I think you're missing the point by ignoring the fact that a baby is just at the beginning of its cognitive development, while a cow has nowhere else to go.
Besides, if we started killing babies, our species would go extinct. That wouldn't be a very smart move on our part, would it?
ARGUMENT FROM GUITAR MASTERY
(1) Eric Clapton is God.
(2) Therefore, God exists.
Yes, I am advocating the use of the weak, unintelligent, otherwise not particular useful things for whatever we desire. NOTHING can exist without exploiting something else. Humans use plants and animals, animals use plants and other animals, plants use the sun and dead animals, and the sun uses helium and hydrogen. Helium and hydrogen, however, just sit there and take it.
So, my question to you is simple: what makes us so different that we need to violate the working order of the universe itself, and make trouble for ourselves in the process? Not to mention damning at least a couple species of animal to near extinction in the process.
We certainly exploit minerals and such. We exploit energy sources. We exploit plantlife. We exploit animal life. We exploit human life... unless you're confused about what a JOB is. You work, I pay you, we both make money, we both eat. It's a voluntary form of exploitation for the exchange of goods and services. And until we all magically become super-beings, that's the way it will ALWAYS be... and even as whatever we become, we'll end up (if nothing else) exploiting the process of becoming such entities.
udsuna, why should you get to use something and take advantage of it just because it's weaker/smaller/less intelligent than you? Judging by your ridiculous arguments, I can safely say I think I'm smarter than you are, so therefore, by your own logic, I should be able to kill you and not suffer any chastisement for it. Sounds fair? Yep!
Tell me; how are humans so useful? What good have we done at all for planet earth, or any living creature, other then ourselves? We cause suffering in every form, and do no good at all, except in selfish ways that benefit nobody else. It sounds to me like we're the useless ones, and the world would be far better off without us. Or at least people that are small mided and self righteous.
If you hate modern humanity and everything it's created, you're quite welcome to disconnect from the internet, and go move to a amish colony.Tell me; how are humans so useful? What good have we done at all for planet earth, or any living creature, other then ourselves? We cause suffering in every form, and do no good at all, except in selfish ways that benefit nobody else. It sounds to me like we're the useless ones, and the world would be far better off without us. Or at least people that are small mided and self righteous.
That's beside the point. To say we're better than animals is self righteous and quite frankly wrong, because we're not, even if only because we have morals that tell us we should know better and so often refuse to use them. This thread is a case in point. Killing something because you can, because it's weaker than you? Just ridiculous.
But back on topic; what benefit is there to eating meat? There is the selfish and transient fact that it tastes good for you as you are consuming it, but does that outweigh the torture and murder of the creatures that we share this planet with, when we can just as easily get meat substitutes with the same nutrients?
If anyone can tell me one reasonable way that eating meat benefits any thing or person (other than themselves), I will drop my vegetarianism right now and revoke my support for Peta.
"If you need to ask that question, then there is no way you could ever possibly understand. By your appearant logic, does that mean beastiality is approximately as acceptable as interacial relationships? Y'know, because there's these ponies in my yard....
I just disgusted myself, I'll shut up now."
No, and it's wrong for the same reason it's wrong to have sex with children. :P
"No, I think you're missing the point by ignoring the fact that a baby is just at the beginning of its cognitive development, while a cow has nowhere else to go.
Besides, if we started killing babies, our species would go extinct. That wouldn't be a very smart move on our part, would it?"
ARGH. That's why it's an analogy. How about addressing the actual point here by arguing why it's ok to take advantage of the weak and unintelligent?
"what makes us so different that we need to violate the working order of the universe itself, and make trouble for ourselves in the process? Not to mention damning at least a couple species of animal to near extinction in the process."
It is wrong because we know we can live without killing animals, and it's wrong because animals feel pain. How many times do I have to say that?
You guys aren't even addressing our points. You just say we're better, basically, over and over. You're going off on crazy tangents, talking about taking advantage of minerals as if that's relevant. We're talking about morality. It's a rock. It doesn't feel pain. Animals do. It's different. At least we're addressing your arguments point by point.
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