Jenova

[CloudStrife48]

Squall of Seed I applaud you..... I have something to show you... IF I can find the link....

EDIT --

I found the link I was talking about, you might have seen this before: http://www.gamingw.net/articles/55

A friend showed me that about 6-7 months ago... I found it very interesting!

[Shoden]

your knowledge is brilliant i'm sure some people who know how to pay attention could learn from these things Squall of seed and become less idiotic

[CloudStrife48]

your knowledge is brilliant i'm sure some people who know how to pay attention could learn from these things Squall of seed and become less idiotic

everything he says it very thought out... and almost flawless <_<

[Shoden]

where does he get this stuff from how old are you 19 or something?

[CloudStrife48]

where does he get this stuff from how old are you 19 or something?

is that reference towards me or him?

but I'm glad people are starting to be aware that JENOVA has controlled EVERYTHING that has happened SINCE she/it became conscious

[Shoden]

yeah i already knew most of it but its hard to explain it to someone who hasnt played the game. Jenova practically took over Sephiroth when he was going crazy about who he was making him extra vulnrable to Jenova's power therefore that was the last of the real Sephiroth really i wonder what it would have been like if Cloud and the true sephiroth went one on one or was that the real final battle?

[CloudStrife48]

yeah i already knew most of it but its hard to explain it to someone who hasnt played the game. Jenova practically took over Sephiroth when he was going crazy about who he was making him extra vulnrable to Jenova's power therefore that was the last of the real Sephiroth really i wonder what it would have been like if Cloud and the true sephiroth went one on one or was that the real final battle?

did you read my edited post. the link contains lots of stuff but its really long

[Raistlin]

Do you people have nothing better to do than to memorize/look over FF7 scripts? xD

[Squall of SeeD]

Squall of Seed I applaud you..... I have something to show you... IF I can find the link....

EDIT --

I found the link I was talking about, you might have seen this before: http://www.gamingw.net/articles/55

A friend showed me that about 6-7 months ago... I found it very interesting!

I have seen that article. In my own opinion, it's bloody horrible. Here's some reasons why:

Squall of Seed I applaud you..... I have something to show you... IF I can find the link....

EDIT --

I found the link I was talking about, you might have seen this before: http://www.gamingw.net/articles/55

A friend showed me that about 6-7 months ago... I found it very interesting!

I have seen that article. In my own opinion, it's bloody horrible. Here's some reasons why:

(SPOILER)How is it that Cloud, little Cloud, who spends most ofthe game being manipulated by Sephiroth, is able to lift up and hurl "the great Sephiroth" over the ledge? Well he was keeping his promise to Tifa, for one thing. But more than that, could it be that Cloud is a lot stronger than he seems while Sephiroth isn't nearly as strong as he seems?

(SPOILER)There's also the fact that Sephiroth was very much out of his head at the time, and that he had a large gut wound. Granted, Cloud received a gut wound, as well, but one that should have killed him. His body would react with desperation before it succumbed to the wound it had just received. The greater the magnitude of a stimulus that a body receives, the greater its adrenaline-charged reaction will be before it gives in.

Aside from Cloud's emotions fueling him with a desire for vengeance and to prevent Sephiroth from escaping, his body would have reacted to the stressful stimulus it had just received with a powerful moment of adrenaline-charged desperation. That's how the human body reacts in moments of great stress. For that moment, Cloud was stronger than Sephiroth, but only for that moment. He had never received the training Sephiroth had received, nor had he been enhanced with Mako showers and JENOVA's Cells. But that moment of desperation pushed him past the strength that Sephiroth had at that moment.

After lifting Sephiroth and throwing him over the catwalk with his last bit of strength, Cloud succumbs to his wound and slumps to the ground. Unlike Cloud, Sephiroth's wound hadn't prevented him from remaining on his feet and moving about. The stimulus Cloud's body received had been greater than that which Sephiroth's body had received, and, thus, pushed him further before his body gave out.

(SPOILER)In the fourth battle, Cloud fights Sephiroth face to face,without the power of Jenova to contend with...and utterly slaughters Sephiroth. Yet, Sephiroth seemed so strong during the game. How can he be this weak? The answer is simple. Sephiroth seems weak becauseSephiroth is weak. He is merely a puppet of Jenova, hence the revelation of the true villain of Final Fantasy VII.

(SPOILER)In regard to this, I simply wish to point out that the battle was a mental one to begin with. Before this point, Cloud's will had been weak enough for him to be controlled as his sense of self-awareness -- and acceptance of that self -- was much weaker than it is during the game's ending. After coming to terms with who he was, accepting who he was, even if he didn't like the reality of his own self, and admitting the truth of who he was to the rest of AVALANCHE, he became self-aware and powerful by accepting his weaknesses. He became strong because he accepted that he was weak.

While I personally like to think that this battle was Cloud fending off one final attempt on JENOVA/Sephiroth's part to control him, taking him as a permanent host seeing as how Sephiroth's body had been destroyed, there's also the possibility that it was nothing more than representing that Cloud was purging the influence of Sephiroth/JENOVA from his mind.

(SPOILER)Jenova was sealed away and forgotten. Two thousand years later and thirty years before the beginning of the game, Jenova is rediscovered. In the years that immediately follow a huge world war breaks out and the first Mako Reactors are created. Is this a coincidence? When Sephiroth is in the Shinra basement, going insane, he reads aloud this document "Jenova Project approved. The use of Mako Reactor number one approved for use." Wow, the first Mako reactor was set up exactly at the time when the Jenova Project, and the creation of Sephiroth, was set into motion.
Jenova was not simply manipulating Sephiroth. She was manipulating everything. She was the founder of the Shinra (translated as 'God') Corporation. Remember when Cloud freaks out just before he sets the bombs up that are to destroy the Mako Reactors in Midgar? This is because he is going against the will of Jenova. She subliminally guided the scientists under her wing to create Sephiroth, her 'son.' She set up the Mako Reactors to weaken the planet and prepare it for its easy destruction. Look at the seal around Holy before the final battle and you'll see that it consists of a red colored rock structure, just like Meteor.

(SPOILER)Aside from the fact that JENOVA is never shown to have power over anyone but those in whom its Cells have been injected, there's the logical fact that something like Mako Reactors would have taken a great deal of time to design and build. That the approval for the use of the first one came on the same day as the approval of the JENOVA Project in no way defeats this fact. Being that the wording of the journal log is "The use of Mako Reactor number one approved for use," this suggests the possibility that the structure was already built and in place, and that the approval for its use came down on the same day as the approval of the JENOVA Project. It could also mean that the plans had been in the works for a while, and that they were just then being given the go ahead. It's quite common for corporations to examine and approve or disapprove as many projects as possible in one board meeting.

In either case, that's irrelevant as that Ifalna -- a Cetra, one of those who could communicate with the Planet -- speaks of JENOVA as being unconscious at this time, stating that it may wake up later:

(SPOILER)"Even though Jenova is confined, it could come back to life at
some time..."
"The Planet has not fully healed itself yet. It is still watching
Jenova."

(SPOILER)It's illogical to assume that this creature was orchestrating events when it wasn't even cognizant.

Further, thinking logically, if JENOVA had the power to manipulate just anyone as the author's article seems to claim, there's no reason that it would have allowed itself to be locked-up in a Mako Reactor for twenty-five years while some of its Cells were constantly being used in experiments, even fed through tubes into pods right outside its chamber.

The author doesn't go to any great lengths to explain why JENOVA would have needed Mako Reactors to weaken the Planet in the first place. For that matter, it's the game never says what JENOVA's intentions before falling into the Lifestream might have been.

(SPOILER)Remember how the Shinra originally were weapons manufacturers who grew in wealth from the war that occurred? She probably started that war as part of her plan to attain the wealth to build the Mako reactors which would be her tool for her enslavement of the human race.

(SPOILER)The war that took place occurred after the Mako Reactors were already in existance. We know it happened some fifteen years before the main events of the game, as Elmyra mentions having found Aerith about that long before the main events of the game, having found her as she went to the Sector Seven Train Station every day to see if her husband had returned from the war:

(SPOILER)Barret
"...What did you say? But, aren't you her mother?"

Elmyra
"...Not her real mother. Oh... it must have been 15 years ago..."
"...during the war. My husband was sent to the front. Some far
away place called Wutai."

(SPOILER)The Mako Reactors were approved for use fifteen years before that. Shin-Ra was already in control of much of the world. The fact that they were fighting Wutai to begin with shows that they were seeking domination.

(SPOILER)She even implanted her cells into the most elite of her army, SOLDIER, in order to have a powerful fighting force of slaves to serve her. She accomplishes her ends in the present, just as she did in the past, by insinuating herself into the ruling society, taking control of it, and manipulating it, all the while keeping her true self and her efforts unseen.

(SPOILER)SOLDIERs had the capacity to resist JENOVA's control, as is made evident by the merchant in the Junon Accessory Shop, who had once been a member of SOLDIER. He feels JENOVA's call, even donning a black cloak as the experiments from Nibelheim had done, but is never pulled away to the Reunion, nor are the members of SOLDIER in the Shin-Ra Headquarters that AVALANCHE fights there.

In other words, Mr. Brittenham's article is illogical yet again at this point.

(SPOILER)Aeris is the last Cetra, a race that was characterized by its migrations into various star systems. They would colonize, cultivate, and communicate with these planets until the eventual move to continue their search for the Promised Land.

(SPOILER)This may just be conjecture, but based on my study of the game's script, I would say that it doesn't suggest that the Cetra migrated from one Planet to another. What the game does tell us after all is that they were from the Planet:

(SPOILER)Aerith
"All I know is..."
"The Cetra were born from the Planet, speak with the Planet, and
unlock the Planet."

(SPOILER)Note that Aerith says they "unlock" the Planet. This no doubt means "cultivate," which Ifalna says the Cetra did to the land at the Knowlespole. In other words, I take this to mean the Cetra were nomads: They would cultivate an area of the Planet and then move to another and cultivate it:

(SPOILER)Sephiroth
"This Planet originally belonged to the Cetra. Cetra was a itinerant race. They would migrate in, settle the Planet, then move on..."

(SPOILER)This is usually what is interpreted as meaning that they were from another world, but "Planet" here more than likely means "land," as in "Settle/Cultivate the land" and then move on.

The only declaration regarding the origin of the Cetra that we receive from a Cetra states that they were born from the Planet.

(SPOILER)Aeris ('heiress' of the knowledge of the Cetra) is the symbol for life and truth in the game with her constant excitement about the future and her own natural abilities to heal herself and those around her, as well as her insight that all is not right with Cloud.

(SPOILER)"Heiress" was not intended in regard to Aerith's name. The source was most likely the Hebrew word for "Flower": "Erith." She sells flowers. Considering that "Tifa" and "Sephiroth" were also drawn from Hebrew -- and that Aerith's age in the game's present was 22 years, 22 also being the number of paths constituting the Sephiroth -- it's a safe assumption to draw.

(SPOILER)Humans were a creation of the planet. They existed within the natural cycle of the planet, posing no real threat to it.

(SPOILER)Some of the Cetra chose to stop living the way of the Cetra, tearing down parts of nature to build shelters for themselves, before JENOVA's arrival. Some of the Cetra become Common Homo Sapiens without JENOVA having a hand in things at all:

(SPOILER)Sephiroth
"But, those that disliked the journey appeared. Those who stopped their migrations built shelters and elected to lead an easier life."
"They took that which the Cetra and the planet had made without giving one whit in return!"

(He looks down.)

Sephiroth
"Those are your ancestors."

(SPOILER)Had they not been performing the migrations beforehand, it would have been quite difficult for them to have "stopped their migrations and elected to lead an easier life," as they wouldn't have been doing it to begin with.

(SPOILER)After Cloud defeats Sephiroth in the fourth of the games four battles, Sephiroth explodes into Lifestream energy that has is colored RED, signifying the contamination of his life force by Jenova. Red is the primary color of both Jenova and Meteor. Watch this scene closely. Cloud is left standing alone. A stream of light emerges from the ground and circles around Cloud. This stream isclearly Holy as it is identical to the streams that later emerge from the Planet and destroy Meteor. The red Life-stream energy of Sephiroth also surround Cloud and enter him. Holy then enters Cloud, combining with him and the Sephiroth/Jenova life force, culminating in a bright flash of light. This bright flash of light also occurs at the end of the game when Holy is vanquishing Meteor, only we don't get to see what happens afterwards, which is why understanding this scene is so important to understandingthe meaning of the games ending. After, the flash of light, Holy vanishes. The Sephiroth life force emerges once again from Cloud, only this time it is colored GREEN. This all symbolizes the cleansing of both Cloud and Sephiroth of the Jenova life force that is inside of them by Holy.

(SPOILER)Holy did not neutralize JENOVA's influence within Sephiroth, nor did it remove the JENOVA Cells from within Cloud. Aside from the fact that this was Cloud's astral form, rather than his physical form, from which JENOVA's Cells couldn't be removed in the first place, Holy is a wall of white-blue light, not green tendrils of energy. What was seen in that scene was the Lifestream:

Holy:
Linkage 1.

Lifestream:
Linkage 2.

Cloud even calls it the Lifestream:
Linkage 3.

The green tendrils didn't enter Cloud, by the way, nor did the red ones that Sephiroth dispersed into. The two streams collided in above him: More linkage.

As for the number three thing, I could draw up some kind of triangle between Cloud, Jessie, and Johnny if I tried hard enough.

Finally, it goes without saying that Aerith didn't come back to life. In addition to logic, Advent Children's trailers have made that clear.

[Raistlin]

While I still disagree with Squall on some relatively minor points(and there's no way in HELL I'm going to scroll through all that mess), I did skim over the article and his responses, and have to admit that the article is a load of conjecture and made-up crap.

Sure, it's plausible. But so is the theory that Vincent is Sephiroth's father, and the Jenova=Lucrecia theory. It's not completely disproven in the game, but there's absolutely no factual evidence in the game to support the theory, which basically means it's a load of bull.

[Squall of SeeD]

While I still disagree with Squall on some relatively minor points(and there's no way in HELL I'm going to scroll through all that mess), I did skim over the article and his responses, and have to admit that the article is a load of conjecture and made-up crap.

Sure, it's plausible. But so is the theory that Vincent is Sephiroth's father, and the Jenova=Lucrecia theory. It's not completely disproven in the game, but there's absolutely no factual evidence in the game to support the theory, which basically means it's a load of bull.

Whereas ignoring it means that the writers went to the trouble of putting that stuff in there for no reason and emphasising such things several times, Cloud even saying "But weak people like me get lost in the whole thing..." and him becoming mentally strong after accepting that he had been weak. It's not contradicted by the story, only supported. In fact, due to there being a varying degree of manipulation exhibited by those with JENOVA's Cells, the burden of an explanation falls on someone attempting to discredit it.

Your assumption requires assuming the writers didn't know what the hell they were throwing that stuff in for or why they were bothering to emphasise it.

Something like the "Vincent is Sephiroth's father" thing is contradicted by the story and the structure in which it was written, the revelation that Hojo was the father coming as a last-minute revelation in terms of storytelling. That isn't the case here, where the story only serves to suggest it time and time again.

[Skyblade]

Actually, some parts of it were totally disproven. Holy was not the only thing that was capable of stopping Meteor. The Lifestream was what stopped Meteor in the end. That's just one of a couple dozen flaws I spotted in that article. However, I don't have Squall's patience, and, since I pretty much agree with him, I will just advise anyone with a differing viewpoint not to argue with him, as you will die of old age before the arguement is over.

[Raistlin]

Whereas ignoring it means that the writers went to the trouble of putting that stuff in there for no reason and emphasising such things several times, Cloud even saying "But weak people like me get lost in the whole thing..." and him becoming mentally strong after accepting that he had been weak. It's not contradicted by the story, only supported. In fact, due to there being a varying degree of manipulation exhibited by those with JENOVA's Cells, the burden of an explanation falls on someone attempting to discredit it.

That makes absolutely no sense. The structure of logic and basic arguments dictate that anyone suggesting a theory has the burden of proof. It's the basic principle on how our entire society(with the sole exception of religion) is built.

Your assumption requires assuming the writers didn't know what the hell they were throwing that stuff in for or why they were bothering to emphasise it.

Your assumption requires ignoring the fact that it's a freakin' game and requires assuming that every single thing has an existential significance. There's something called "game mechanics" and "this sounds cool; let's throw it in!"

Something like the "Vincent is Sephiroth's father" thing is contradicted by the story and the structure in which it was written, the revelation that Hojo was the father coming as a last-minute revelation in terms of storytelling. That isn't the case here, where the story only serves to suggest it time and time again.

Suggest? Everything is based on very loose assumptions. There's absolutely nothing in the game which suggests that Jenova had any influence in the world before her cells were injected in people, and nothing to suggest that Jenova even could control people who did not have her cells.

Actually, some parts of it were totally disproven. Holy was not the only thing that was capable of stopping Meteor. The Lifestream was what stopped Meteor in the end.

No, Holy stopped Meteor. The Lifestream merely protected the Planet from being destroyed in the process(how much it actually helped Holy is unknown). There's nothing to suggest that the Lifestream could've stopped Meteor on its own.

[Skyblade]

No, Holy stopped Meteor. The Lifestream merely protected the Planet from being destroyed in the process(how much it actually helped Holy is unknown). There's nothing to suggest that the Lifestream could've stopped Meteor on its own.

True, we don't know that the Lifestream could have stopped Meteor on its own. But we do know that Holy couldn't do it on it's own. Arguing that Holy stopped Meteor but didn't keep the Planet from being destroyed (which is what the Lifestream did), is moronic. That's like saying "I caught a fly ball, but I didn't stop it from being a home run". Destroying the Planet is what Meteor is doing. If Holy can't prevent that, than Holy is not stopping Meteor!

[Squall of SeeD]

That makes absolutely no sense. The structure of logic and basic arguments dictate that anyone suggesting a theory has the burden of proof. It's the basic principle on how our entire society(with the sole exception of religion) is built.

The theory is based on simple cause and affect things that the game shows:

1) Zack's someone comfortable with himself. He's a ladies' man. He accepts himself for who he is.

2) Cloud doesn't accept himself for who he is. He tries to hide who he is. His mind even takes on the persona of another person to a great extent so that he can even live with himself. None of that's saying a lot for his mental solidarity.

3) Zack doesn't have a reaction JENOVA's Cells.

4) Cloud has a reaction to JENOVA's Cells.

5) It's said that only the strongest may enter SOLDIER. Cloud calls himself weak. How has he displayed weakness? With his mind.

6) Another member of SOLDIER shows only the faintest signs of being affected by JENOVA, suggesting that -- like Zack -- he's got something that seperates him from Cloud.

7) What seperated Zack from Cloud? Pretty obviously it's their acceptance of theirselves. Aerith calls Zack a ladies' man. After asking Cloud if he's ever been on a date, when he replies "No," she says "No, just a mixed-up kid...."

8) Cloud is forced to come to terms with who he is and accept who he is. He then admits the true nature of himself to those closest to him. He has come to terms with who he is, accepting it.

9) All times before his acceptance of himself when his mind was entered by an outside force, his will was either completely subverted (such as when he handed over the Black Materia) or heavily bent (when he nearly crushed Aerith beneath the Buster Sword).

10) After accepting who he was, when the same being who had been bending his will was present in his mind once more, he easily purged them and their influence from within himself.

Are you not seeing the A to B nature of that?

Point A: He's not accepting himself for who he is. His mind is in denial about who he is. He's even taken on characteristics of someone he wanted to be like. He's being easily manipulated.

Linking Point: The false nature of what he had come to believe of himself and convince others of himself is brought to light and he accepts himself for who he is.

Point B: He now purges from his mind the influence of the who had been manipulating him as easily as they had been performing the manipulation.

Or do you have another theory for why this was so?

Your assumption requires ignoring the fact that it's a freakin' game and requires assuming that every single thing has an existential significance.

I write. I'm a writer. When I throw something into a story, it's there for a reason. I imagine this to be the case with most writers, especially those on a professional level. If this story had subtleties to the extent of Aerith's age being 22 while there are 22 paths constituting the Sephiroth, or Sephiroth's right arm in the Safer Sephiroth battle being obviously composed of JENOVA (an obvious play on "The right hand of God"), or JENOVA meaning "New God," or Tifa's name being derived from "Tifaret," the central node on the Sephiroth, which represents beauty, love and balance (she's pretty, she loves Cloud, and it is she who guides Cloud back to himself in the Lifestream and restores balance to his mind), then I would think something as blatant as "But weak people like me get lost in the whole thing..." or "Hey, I'm going to be in denial about who I really am and be controlled, then I'm going to accept who I am and admit it to myself and those I accidentally deceived, then be strong enough to not be controlled" is going to have some meaning.

There's something called "game mechanics" and "this sounds cool; let's throw it in!"

Your point being what? When writing a story, one is writing a story. Things such as game mechanics are left up to other People. It's the job of the writers to write a story. It's the job of those involved with game mechanics (the design and applications of mini-games, vehicles, random battles and the like) to offer a link between the bits of story and to apply the RPG elements of the game.

Suggest? Everything is based on very loose assumptions. There's absolutely nothing in the game which suggests that Jenova had any influence in the world before her cells were injected in people, and nothing to suggest that Jenova even could control people who did not have her cells.

What are you talking about? o.O I never said that either of those things were the case.


As for your and Skyblade's debate concerning what stopped Meteor, one possible compromise is that the Lifestream offered a boost of power to Holy. Thus, Holy wouldn't have stopped Meteor on its own, and the Lifestream would have utilized a tool to stop Meteor, meaning it may not have been able to do so otherwise. Considering that we really don't know either way and there's not a suggestion one way or the other -- unlike with certain other things -- there's not a lot there to debate, especially when you both could be right at the same time. The points you're arguing are not necessarily mutually exclusive.