On Freedom of Speech

[lordblazer]

Thought I was a LADY?! WTH... why does that always happen.. It happens when I meet someone new in person and it happens online!!!!

Ah well, guess I am used to it by now.

And yes I was using the Pre-emptive rebuttle as just that. And it wasn't directed straight at LordBlazer, but rather to anyone who read it and started to think that.

And LordBlazer before throwing out the immature comment. Remember, when righting a essay(which in debates each post could almost be considered an essay) you must predict the oppositions response and cancel it out. Therefor I predicted a response I commonly see(not neccesarily saying YOU would think that, but I cover my bases) and then blocked it.

Simple analogy: If you see someone moving in a certian way in wrestling you can predict what they would do.. now you may be wrong(as it appears I was here) but if you just stand there.. well you ain't gonna win the match.

As for you i wasn't serious i was obviously messing around with you in a serious debate.I meant it in a lighthearted way.

He never said you did call him a racist. He was just expecting it, because it seems that anything deemed disrespectful towards a black person means that the person who made the comment is a "racist" in today's society--just like somebody who doesn't agree with homosexuality is called "homophobic", somebody who doesn't like their wife working would be "chauvanistic", etc. And he made a preemptive rebuttle to the comment that you quite possibly would have made. I'm sure he didn't mean any offense by it.

The better part of the post was focused on your comment of being the "black fellow". This happens. In my graduating class, there were only two black people, and if somebody didn't know their name, they would be referred to as "the black guy" or "that black girl"...well, the girl was often called many different things, but most people liked the guy. Also, we had less than 60 in our graduating class, so it was odd for people to not know names, but I came into the class as a Junior so I didn't know anybody...and that's how those two particular people were described to me. "H.L. is the black guy", and "(whatever the hell her name was) is the black girl". In fact, now that I think about it, I don't remember any other black people in high school when I was a senior, save those two and one more that came into our class but didn't graduate. Anyway. The point is, when you're the only one of a specific group, you are labeled--and that's not necessarily a bad thing. I moved up here (Wisconsin) from Georgia, and immediately people either knew me as "the new guy" or "the Georgian", seeing as I was not only the only new guy that year, but the only guy that was from Georgia.

Hmmm. ShunNakamura, I always thought you were a lady. Sorry 'bout that.

As for you Sas........You think you have it all down uh?Well you don't...The only reason why you can find people who agree with you is

1.They're white
2.They're American
3.They are too much into their personal lives to see the world around them.
4.THey don't even want to understand what other shave to deal with so they just deny it.
...
Another thing is you Sas.When you debated you sounded immature.You had to say a comment that was stupid or was meant to be an insult towards the party opposing you.I understand how you feel on the issue but really.You are astray from the issue.Thats why you say that in American Society everyone is assemilated.Which in fact is really far from the truth.The groups of people you think get it easier in life actually worked twice as hard.Harder than you worked and will ever have to work.I don't expect any Caucasin American to understand it mainly because they don't have to deal with it.Even though its in front of them in their everyday life.Thats the message I was trying to get accross.Your intellgent,but your IQ doesn't determine what you know and understand.Intellegence is just used on how well you can understand the world around you and how you can adapt to see it fit you.Simply put as humans we really only get to go by experience.If you haven't experience the huddles a minority goes through then you really won't understand it clearly.It will be really really fuzzzy to grasp it.

Well as I said thats the last time I post on here.Its best we change the subject...

[AkiraMakie]

As for you Sas........You think you have it all down uh?Well you don't...The only reason why you can find people who agree with you is

1.They're white
2.They're American
3.They are too much into their personal lives to see the world around them.
4.THey don't even want to understand what other shave to deal with so they just deny it.
...
Another thing is you Sas.When you debated you sounded immature.You had to say a comment that was stupid or was meant to be an insult towards the party opposing you.I understand how you feel on the issue but really.You are astray from the issue.Thats why you say that in American Society everyone is assemilated.Which in fact is really far from the truth.The groups of people you think get it easier in life actually worked twice as hard.Harder than you worked and will ever have to work.I don't expect any Caucasin American to understand it mainly because they don't have to deal with it.Even though its in front of them in their everyday life.Thats the message I was trying to get accross.Your intellgent,but your IQ doesn't determine what you know and understand.Intellegence is just used on how well you can understand the world around you and how you can adapt to see it fit you.Simply put as humans we really only get to go by experience.If you haven't experience the huddles a minority goes through then you really won't understand it clearly.It will be really really fuzzzy to grasp it.

Well as I said thats the last time I post on here.Its best we change the subject...

You said it best with this. He doesnt understand the woes of the minority and will never understand because he doesnt have to. Its not that your racist or im racist or lordblazer is racist. no, it has nothing to do with it. But as ive said before, you cant truely understand what the minorities go through because they dont affect you. Just like i will probably never understand the woes of rich white people. Thats why when i here you talking about Black people who are underqualified are taking jobs due to Afirmative Action, its angers me. It angers me because your complaining, but the playing field isnt level to begin with. Just imagin how many black people, or really any minority, wouldnt get hired in some places if it was for the fact that you have to hire minorities. And not only that, but AA also covers making sure Women get hired in places, not just minorites. Now these few instances of underqualified people getting hired should not even be an arguement because white people still make up the majority of the work force. You have no reason to complain.

But all of this is neither here nor there. Sasquatch, your problem is that you insult people when you try to make a point. You dont even have to go that route. it only serves to prove your arogance and ignorance.

[Sasquatch]

Hahaha. Well, I will tell y'all this. The point of a debate, if you haven't realized, is not to change the stance of your opponent. It's not "I'm gonna debate with you until you change your mind". The point of a debate is to change the minds of the other people who may be listening, who may have or may not have already decided. And what's the best way to do that? The way I figure, as I have for years, it's to make your opponent look stupid. If somebody watching can say "well that guy is alright, but he keeps making the other guy sound like a moron," then who is he gonna listen to more? Plus, I'm a smartass, and it comes easy to me. By the way, how many times have I insulted either of you? I may strike down one of the points you try to make, and I may say some things that you take offense to, but that doesn't mean I've insulted you. The only way you can stop that kind of thing is to make sure you think things over when you say them, and don't say things that can easily be turned around and made to look stupid. Ain't too hard to figure out.

Basically, lordblazer, you're telling me that I don't know anything about minorities because I'm not one, and AkiraMakie, you're telling me that it's alright for people to be discriminated against because of their skin color, but only if it's against white people. Both of y'all think that America is racist against all minorities and sexist against women, and that you have it so hard compared to every single white man because all the white men are born with a silver spoon in their mouth and don't have to work half as hard as anybody else does. White men have it so good, they have everything given to them, and everybody else--whether it be women, black people, hispanics, any minority--has to work harder than white men could imagine working.

And to both of you. Don't make comments on my personal life. Neither of you have any idea how hard I've had to work, or how hard I will have to work, or even what I'm working towards. And neither of you have a clue what I've been through or what I go through, and what I've experienced, either.

Tell you what. Here's an example of "what you have to go through". You go out and try to get a job somewhere, one of four things will happen.

1. Hired, because you're best qualified.
2. Hired, because even though you're poorly qualified, you're a minority.
3. Not hired, because you're not qualified.
4. Not hired, because you may be qualified, but you're black.

If you're hired, you should have no problems...unless you're hired because of your skin color, then you should have a problem with that, but you wouldn't. If you're not qualified, too bad, you're not good enough for the job and you were passed over in favor of somebody who was qualified. Understandable. Then we get to #4. You're passed over because America is racist and it trickles down to this employer, who of course is racist as all hell too, and he doesn't want to hire you because of your skin color. Do you know how easy it is to get a lawyer that wants a discrimination case? You sue, present your case in court, and if they find that you really did deserve the job and didn't get it because of your skin color (or gender), then the court would rule your way, and you'd be granted the money.

Oh, sorry, I forgot. Everybody in the justice system is racist too.

By the way. Would it be fair for a white guy to go somewhere with a primarily black population, maybe inner-city somewhere, and demand a job? And then say they're racist when he doesn't get it? Wouldn't that be the same thing as a black person going somewhere with a primarily white population and saying the employer is racist when he doesn't get hired? Oh, sorry, forgot that too. Mind seems to be slipping today. Minorities can't be racist, right?

[AkiraMakie]

Hahaha. Well, I will tell y'all this. The point of a debate, if you haven't realized, is not to change the stance of your opponent. It's not "I'm gonna debate with you until you change your mind". The point of a debate is to change the minds of the other people who may be listening, who may have or may not have already decided. And what's the best way to do that? The way I figure, as I have for years, it's to make your opponent look stupid. If somebody watching can say "well that guy is alright, but he keeps making the other guy sound like a moron," then who is he gonna listen to more? Plus, I'm a smartass, and it comes easy to me. By the way, how many times have I insulted either of you? I may strike down one of the points you try to make, and I may say some things that you take offense to, but that doesn't mean I've insulted you. The only way you can stop that kind of thing is to make sure you think things over when you say them, and don't say things that can easily be turned around and made to look stupid. Ain't too hard to figure out.

Basically, lordblazer, you're telling me that I don't know anything about minorities because I'm not one, and AkiraMakie, you're telling me that it's alright for people to be discriminated against because of their skin color, but only if it's against white people. Both of y'all think that America is racist against all minorities and sexist against women, and that you have it so hard compared to every single white man because all the white men are born with a silver spoon in their mouth and don't have to work half as hard as anybody else does. White men have it so good, they have everything given to them, and everybody else--whether it be women, black people, hispanics, any minority--has to work harder than white men could imagine working.

And to both of you. Don't make comments on my personal life. Neither of you have any idea how hard I've had to work, or how hard I will have to work, or even what I'm working towards. And neither of you have a clue what I've been through or what I go through, and what I've experienced, either.

Tell you what. Here's an example of "what you have to go through". You go out and try to get a job somewhere, one of four things will happen.

1. Hired, because you're best qualified.
2. Hired, because even though you're poorly qualified, you're a minority.
3. Not hired, because you're not qualified.
4. Not hired, because you may be qualified, but you're black.

If you're hired, you should have no problems...unless you're hired because of your skin color, then you should have a problem with that, but you wouldn't. If you're not qualified, too bad, you're not good enough for the job and you were passed over in favor of somebody who was qualified. Understandable. Then we get to #4. You're passed over because America is racist and it trickles down to this employer, who of course is racist as all hell too, and he doesn't want to hire you because of your skin color. Do you know how easy it is to get a lawyer that wants a discrimination case? You sue, present your case in court, and if they find that you really did deserve the job and didn't get it because of your skin color (or gender), then the court would rule your way, and you'd be granted the money.

Oh, sorry, I forgot. Everybody in the justice system is racist too.

By the way. Would it be fair for a white guy to go somewhere with a primarily black population, maybe inner-city somewhere, and demand a job? And then say they're racist when he doesn't get it? Wouldn't that be the same thing as a black person going somewhere with a primarily white population and saying the employer is racist when he doesn't get hired? Oh, sorry, forgot that too. Mind seems to be slipping today. Minorities can't be racist, right?

Haha, like i said before, you will never understand. Im not even gonna break down every paragraph and respond cause its obvious your not even reading them. Your not making anyone else look like a moron, you making yourself look stupid. After we specificially say something, you turn it around and its almost as if we never even responded. You never see anyone that debates in real life sling around insults all day to make someone look idiotic, they let their point do that. All You do is throw around insults and when you do that, your main point is lost to some people cause all your doing is "trying" to make someone look stupid, not accually trying to make your point.

Throughout our post, neither I nor Lordblazer has said that its ok to descrimnate agaisnt anybody. I personally have even said in one of my post that some black people and minorities ARE racist but that neither are right. I never even said america was a sexist country, but yeah, it is, now that you mention it. But thats another story.

GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD. No one is saying every white man/person is born with a silver spoon in their. What we are saying is that, no matter how bad you may have it in this country, you will never have it as bad as a minority. Whats so hard to believe about that?

You point a finger at me and lordblazer, but neither one of us has made any racist remarks. If we have, please post the ones you think were racist. i would love to see your definition of a racist remark.

Your right though, the point of a debate isnt to change the other persons mind. Obviously you could never change the mind of a person so close minded as yourself.

By the way. Would it be fair for a white guy to go somewhere with a primarily black population, maybe inner-city somewhere, and demand a job? And then say they're racist when he doesn't get it? Wouldn't that be the same thing as a black person going somewhere with a primarily white population and saying the employer is racist when he doesn't get hired? Oh, sorry, forgot that too. Mind seems to be slipping today. Minorities can't be racist, right?

haha, i almost let this little one slip by. Man i swear you live in some world.
"Wouldn't that be the same thing as a black person going somewhere with a primarily white population and saying the employer is racist when he doesn't get hired?"
Man, i laughed at this one. Your are something else Sasquatch.

[DMKA]

Hahaha. Well, I will tell y'all this. The point of a debate, if you haven't realized, is not to change the stance of your opponent. It's not "I'm gonna debate with you until you change your mind". The point of a debate is to change the minds of the other people who may be listening, who may have or may not have already decided. And what's the best way to do that? The way I figure, as I have for years, it's to make your opponent look stupid. If somebody watching can say "well that guy is alright, but he keeps making the other guy sound like a moron," then who is he gonna listen to more? Plus, I'm a smartass, and it comes easy to me. By the way, how many times have I insulted either of you? I may strike down one of the points you try to make, and I may say some things that you take offense to, but that doesn't mean I've insulted you. The only way you can stop that kind of thing is to make sure you think things over when you say them, and don't say things that can easily be turned around and made to look stupid. Ain't too hard to figure out.

Basically, lordblazer, you're telling me that I don't know anything about minorities because I'm not one, and AkiraMakie, you're telling me that it's alright for people to be discriminated against because of their skin color, but only if it's against white people. Both of y'all think that America is racist against all minorities and sexist against women, and that you have it so hard compared to every single white man because all the white men are born with a silver spoon in their mouth and don't have to work half as hard as anybody else does. White men have it so good, they have everything given to them, and everybody else--whether it be women, black people, hispanics, any minority--has to work harder than white men could imagine working.

And to both of you. Don't make comments on my personal life. Neither of you have any idea how hard I've had to work, or how hard I will have to work, or even what I'm working towards. And neither of you have a clue what I've been through or what I go through, and what I've experienced, either.

Tell you what. Here's an example of "what you have to go through". You go out and try to get a job somewhere, one of four things will happen.

1. Hired, because you're best qualified.
2. Hired, because even though you're poorly qualified, you're a minority.
3. Not hired, because you're not qualified.
4. Not hired, because you may be qualified, but you're black.

If you're hired, you should have no problems...unless you're hired because of your skin color, then you should have a problem with that, but you wouldn't. If you're not qualified, too bad, you're not good enough for the job and you were passed over in favor of somebody who was qualified. Understandable. Then we get to #4. You're passed over because America is racist and it trickles down to this employer, who of course is racist as all hell too, and he doesn't want to hire you because of your skin color. Do you know how easy it is to get a lawyer that wants a discrimination case? You sue, present your case in court, and if they find that you really did deserve the job and didn't get it because of your skin color (or gender), then the court would rule your way, and you'd be granted the money.

Oh, sorry, I forgot. Everybody in the justice system is racist too.

By the way. Would it be fair for a white guy to go somewhere with a primarily black population, maybe inner-city somewhere, and demand a job? And then say they're racist when he doesn't get it? Wouldn't that be the same thing as a black person going somewhere with a primarily white population and saying the employer is racist when he doesn't get hired? Oh, sorry, forgot that too. Mind seems to be slipping today. Minorities can't be racist, right?

Wow, I usually don't agree with Sasquatch, but I actually agree with every last word of that (and I'm Hispanic, among other things).

I don't see where "Would it be fair for a white guy to go somewhere with a primarily black population, maybe inner-city somewhere, and demand a job? And then say they're racist when he doesn't get it? Wouldn't that be the same thing as a black person going somewhere with a primarily white population and saying the employer is racist when he doesn't get hired? Oh, sorry, forgot that too. Mind seems to be slipping today. Minorities can't be racist, right?" is wrong or "of some other world", because it's a good point. People do seem to think only white people can be racist. A good example is stand up comedy: look at black comedians, and the majority of them have atleast a few, if not a ton of cracks at white people...and it's funny...people laugh at it...white and black people alike...and they usually make cracks at black people too...it's all cool. But if a white comedian got up on stage and started cracking jokes about black people (despite if he was cracking jokes at his own race as well), how many outcrys do you think there'd be at him being a racist/KKK member/Nazi?

I'm not saying there aren't racist white people, because I know perhaps better than most of the members on this board that there are, due to the area I live in...but there's a whole lot of racist black people too...I may not agree with his idea that the NAACP are racist like the KKK (because I think that's silly), but that last post of his is right on the money. There are racist people of every race...just white people have the history of controlling with it in this country, and oppressing others on a large scale. Does that matter? That's up to you, but I certainly think it does.

You are right about racism still exsisting though, if nothing else.

[ShunNakamura]

First off. I apoligize if I overreacted... but you do realize how many people would truely respond that way? Plus I dont' really know many of you as yet, so I am unsure when and where a wisecrack is placed.

Now secondly.

black people make 62 cents for every dollar a white man makes, FOR THE SAME JOB.

Women make 76 cents for every dollar a male makes, FOR THE SAME JOB.

These are national statistics for the year 2000... I would get newer ones but I am lazy at the moment... plus I got more work to do before I leave in the hour and I want to post this.

Thirdly,

Affirmitive action, or more specifically quotas are a form of the so called "reversed discrimination". That is the lazy way out.. I may be lazy,but even I konw that creating discrimination out of laziness is wrong, and I would strive against it.

What needs to be done is;

1- Get the wages of all minorities up to the wages of the white males.. I mean really, it doesn't matter if they have a job or not.. they still are getting payed roughly half as much.

2-Get rid of the AA, the only time it is needed is if a canidate is rejected for racial reasons.. and I believe as was said above... many lawyers would take up the case.

Now another thing that creates this illusion that only whites are racist... is the fact that we call discrimination against whites, "reversed discrimination". That term needs to be corrected.

On top of all this I can understand what, to a certian extent(which is greater then what you may think), what minorities go through. I have always had the ability to view things from another's view... it may take a bit of time.. but I can usualy manage in the end.

However I look at the large picture.. petty disturbances don't bother me. On a large, AA(quota based), creates a form of resentment in white americans... this resentment can lead to discrimination remaining. You need to protect the rights of minorities without creating undue resentment. AA that is quota based is UNFAIR... due to the fact that a less qualifed can beat out one more qualified.. doesn't matter if the person is white, black or purple.

Now to the off-hand comments. Sasquatch shows that he has read your comments, he just doesn't aggree with them, or possibly they just went around him... I reread many of the people's post twice to be sure I caught it all. As for making himself look stupid, no not really, maybe aggressive, but that really isn't always a bad thing. The inults are natural in debates.. I'll tell you that now.,. I see them alot.. and I love debating. Profesional debates are another story.. you plan more for them. But when you come up and just start debating on the fly, insults will also fly. I am certian Sasquatch was not trying to destroy you self-esteem.. he just doesn't believe in your ideas.. and makes that clear.

As for not understanding how it is for minorities, that is true, most do not realize that a black man makes so little money per 1$ an american makes. Also did you know latino wages have gone down.. in the 1970's I believe it was they made 75 cents or so for every dollar a white man made. In 1998(this is really old) they only made 70 cents!

Yes something must be done, BUT NOT QUOTAS, rather we must balance wages and ensure minorities still get EQUAL chances, we cannot afford to create hostilities on other sides. My teacher knows black people who dislike AA, for they can never be sure whether or not they were the best qualified for their job!

[lordblazer]

First off. I apoligize if I overreacted... but you do realize how many people would truely respond that way? Plus I dont' really know many of you as yet, so I am unsure when and where a wisecrack is placed.

Now secondly.

black people make 62 cents for every dollar a white man makes, FOR THE SAME JOB.

Women make 76 cents for every dollar a male makes, FOR THE SAME JOB.

These are national statistics for the year 2000... I would get newer ones but I am lazy at the moment... plus I got more work to do before I leave in the hour and I want to post this.

Thirdly,

Affirmitive action, or more specifically quotas are a form of the so called "reversed discrimination". That is the lazy way out.. I may be lazy,but even I konw that creating discrimination out of laziness is wrong, and I would strive against it.

What needs to be done is;

1- Get the wages of all minorities up to the wages of the white males.. I mean really, it doesn't matter if they have a job or not.. they still are getting payed roughly half as much.

2-Get rid of the AA, the only time it is needed is if a canidate is rejected for racial reasons.. and I believe as was said above... many lawyers would take up the case.

Now another thing that creates this illusion that only whites are racist... is the fact that we call discrimination against whites, "reversed discrimination". That term needs to be corrected.

On top of all this I can understand what, to a certian extent(which is greater then what you may think), what minorities go through. I have always had the ability to view things from another's view... it may take a bit of time.. but I can usualy manage in the end.

However I look at the large picture.. petty disturbances don't bother me. On a large, AA(quota based), creates a form of resentment in white americans... this resentment can lead to discrimination remaining. You need to protect the rights of minorities without creating undue resentment. AA that is quota based is UNFAIR... due to the fact that a less qualifed can beat out one more qualified.. doesn't matter if the person is white, black or purple.

Now to the off-hand comments. Sasquatch shows that he has read your comments, he just doesn't aggree with them, or possibly they just went around him... I reread many of the people's post twice to be sure I caught it all. As for making himself look stupid, no not really, maybe aggressive, but that really isn't always a bad thing. The inults are natural in debates.. I'll tell you that now.,. I see them alot.. and I love debating. Profesional debates are another story.. you plan more for them. But when you come up and just start debating on the fly, insults will also fly. I am certian Sasquatch was not trying to destroy you self-esteem.. he just doesn't believe in your ideas.. and makes that clear.

As for not understanding how it is for minorities, that is true, most do not realize that a black man makes so little money per 1$ an american makes. Also did you know latino wages have gone down.. in the 1970's I believe it was they made 75 cents or so for every dollar a white man made. In 1998(this is really old) they only made 70 cents!

Yes something must be done, BUT NOT QUOTAS, rather we must balance wages and ensure minorities still get EQUAL chances, we cannot afford to create hostilities on other sides. My teacher knows black people who dislike AA, for they can never be sure whether or not they were the best qualified for their job!

WEll

1.this is a free enterprise market
2.the reason why minorities and women get paid less than white male is because the employers are really racist and can basicly do that and if it was up to them they would hire no minorities and pay women even less.Thus AA is sadly still needed....I don't agree with Sas mainly becauserealyl Sas if oyu went to a black side of town to get a job you would get it if your qualified for it mainly because there aren't mainly racist black people who would keep you from a paying job to support yourself and your family.Simply put yeah minorities are racist but we keep it to ourselves mainly because the caucasins in power really really dont view us well.Also may I add that yeah minorities really are look at by caucasins like some kind of animal.If we do something amazing its like wowwwwwwwwwwww look a them and that pisses you off Sas but you know what we don't ask for it and we don't want that.Like how i saw on TV the republican convention showedcase on camera minorities.To tell mainly the caucasin audience that"Hey the republican party has minorities we are't racist or whatever.."You guys are dealing with your race when it comes to "reverse racism".SImply put Sas you will definately know when you are discrimnated against and even put down because of your race.YOu can care or not.Simply put you have to stop caring for it.But youw ill definately know.It won't me a maybe it will be a solid yes or no.

[Sasquatch]

Thanks DMKA, I know you usually don't agree with me, but it's nice to see that somebody else knows what's really going on, especially a minority.

Affirmitave Action is discrimination based on skin color. Neither of you have said that Affirmative Action is okay? You sure 'bout that?

I have yet to say that racism against blacks, hispanics, etc. doesn't exist. It does. It always has, and I wouldn't doubt that it always will, in some forms, and in some places. You go to some other countries, and you will REALLY be looked down upon because of your race--as far as I understand, the Japanese really don't like anybody that isn't of Japanese descent, especially black people. But saying that society as a whole is racist against black people, or that minorities have to work so much harder than white people do, is completely ridiculous.

ShunNakamura, according to them, unless you're black, you have no idea what a black person goes through. Doesn't matter if you've been around, if you've seen it, if you've been through it, unless you're black, you got no clue. Makes a hellovalotta sense, don't it?

I'm not sure about those financial statistics. From what I know, most of those stats are very general, and don't mean "for the same job", or for a job at all. I've looked into quite a few of the "these people make less money than these people" and discovered that, for the most part, they are based on the general population. Which would include everybody, ranging from the unemployed to burger-flippers to CEOs. (Oh, sorry, forgot, everybody's not only racist in the sense that they pay white men better, they're also racist enough to give all the good jobs to only white men, right? Don't say you weren't gonna use that.) Even so, you would have to consider their qualifications, their attendence, their performance, their attitude, etc. to figure out what's really "fair" and what's not. You'd have to look into the numbers on statistics like that.

[lordblazer]

'ShunNakamura, according to them, unless you're black, you have no idea what a black person goes through. Doesn't matter if you've been around, if you've seen it, if you've been through it, unless you're black, you got no clue. Makes a hellovalotta sense, don't it?"
That Sas is what we didn't say......

[AkiraMakie]

'ShunNakamura, according to them, unless you're black, you have no idea what a black person goes through. Doesn't matter if you've been around, if you've seen it, if you've been through it, unless you're black, you got no clue. Makes a hellovalotta sense, don't it?"
That Sas is what we didn't say......

No damn that. im saying that. He doesnt know what its like to be black. Plain and simple. I dont know whats its like to be white. I dont fully understand some of the problems white people go through. So whats so hard to understand that he doesnt know what is like to be black, cause he cant and never will be able to be black. Geez, it's that simple. He will never be called a nigger. He will never be turned down a job because your black. He will never be denied opportunites because he's black, he will never have to live in a world where he make less than the next man for the same work. plain and simple. its not hard to understand.


[q=Sasquatch]
I have yet to say that racism against blacks, hispanics, etc. doesn't exist. It does. It always has, and I wouldn't doubt that it always will, in some forms, and in some places. You go to some other countries, and you will REALLY be looked down upon because of your race--as far as I understand, the Japanese really don't like anybody that isn't of Japanese descent, especially black people. But saying that society as a whole is racist against black people, or that minorities have to work so much harder than white people do, is completely ridiculous.
[/q]

What the hell does this have to do with anything. The japanese as a people dont like anybody thats not really japanese. Even other asians. Your point has no merit with this one because they dont like anybody. They dont really even like people that are half japanese half something else. And from what i understand, they dont especially like white people from america.

Your post also proves that you dont really read what others are writing, ShunNakamura even posted in defence of the fact that minorites half to work harder for the same things white people have. But ive noticed this with alot of your post, you tend to skip around anything you cant really argue cause you know you either dont know, or you know your wrong. Or maybe your so clouded by your personal beliefs on how things "SHOULD" be, that you dont want to hear some of these things.


[q=Sasquatch]
I'm not sure about those financial statistics. From what I know, most of those stats are very general, and don't mean "for the same job", or for a job at all. I've looked into quite a few of the "these people make less money than these people" and discovered that, for the most part, they are based on the general population. Which would include everybody, ranging from the unemployed to burger-flippers to CEOs. (Oh, sorry, forgot, everybody's not only racist in the sense that they pay white men better, they're also racist enough to give all the good jobs to only white men, right? Don't say you weren't gonna use that.) Even so, you would have to consider their qualifications, their attendence, their performance, their attitude, etc. to figure out what's really "fair" and what's not. You'd have to look into the numbers on statistics like that.
[/q]

yeah...right.

Yeah you looked into some of those things just like you followed the OJ simpson case in 94/95 when u was 9/10 years old. You give out a good bunch of BS, i'll give you that.

[ShunNakamura]

Well I was told those statistics were for the same job, and I have seen them mentioned many times in the same context, as well as read it many times. But I guess it is possible I missread(reading too much between the lines I have a problem with), or that it has improved(heck, my most recent statistic is 5 yrs old), or that I just got a looney book,


Ok I just looked it up in my Sociology Text, and it doesn't specify whether or not it was for the same job.. all though the stats listed there are slightly different then the ones the teacher had on his slide from when he started the class(we have changed texts, the one I know have is hitting it's 4th year... so I think it is more up to date then his slides, but maybe not, cause he takes refreasher courses consistently and changes his notes accordingly.)

Now lordblazer I said we need to get the wages up. If the wages of minorities were brought up(I was certian the teach told it was per dollar for the same job.... hmm... maybe I was hallucinating in class) the overall povertly lvl for minorities would drop... thus increasing equality... we DO NOT need quotas. I have no problem with the IDEAL of AA... the ideal is to promote minorities to get jobs. Instead it sets QUOTAS... and that means less qaulified people may get in.

Yes SOMETHING should be done, but NOT quotas. If the pay per dollar is lower, that MUST be fixed. I have said it again and again, Quotas are the lazy way out, and lazy in many cases is not good. See a connection perhaps?

[Sasquatch]

Yes, many times, statistics like those are taken as general populations and not specific job fields. As in, they don't go around and talk to 1000 janitors and find out what they all get paid. And again, you would still have to consider the factors in why anybody would be getting paid more or less, which include attitude, attendance, performance, qualifications, experience, yadda yadda yadda.

lordblazer -- I apologize. YOU didn't say that nobody knew what you go through because they're not black. Wouldn't want to intentionally label you with such a ridiculous comment as such.

AkiraMakie -- Let's see. For one thing, yes, seeing as my parents were following the OJ case, I also tried to follow the OJ case (I've had an interest in law for quite some time), and I further researched it later in life. Whereas you, obviously, have done no research at all on the case. And yes, I have also researched financial statistics similar to the ones ShunNakamura posted, because I've had debates like this before, and been confronted with statistics like that, and had to look behind them.

The point about Japan was that no matter how "racist" you think America is, there are many places where people really are racist--something you're not used to.

By the way, when I'm replying to a post, I read it thoroughly, and usually break it down into seperate topics.

I'll never be turned down opportunities because I'm black? How about being turned down opportunities because I'm white? You think that never happens? Thank your precious Affirmative Action for that...oh, sorry, it's alright to discriminate upon race, but only if it's against white people.

[AkiraMakie]

I'll never be turned down opportunities because I'm black? How about being turned down opportunities because I'm white? You think that never happens? Thank your precious Affirmative Action for that...oh, sorry, it's alright to discriminate upon race, but only if it's against white people.

Give me one good example of YOU being turned down something because you are white.

[DMKA]

Give me one good example of YOU being turned down something because you are white.

Say he goes to get a job, but the percentage of, say, african americans has not ben filled for that job, but they've already got a decent amount of white guys working there. Say him, and a african american guy both apply for that same job...the african american guy, going by affirmative action, will get the job, and he will be pushed aside...because he's white. Of course, it has a good intention, and it's not because him specifically, but it's still because he happened to be then and there, and he was white.

I think that's wrong, and I think who's best qualified should be hired reguardless. Because really Affirmative Action is pure and utter racism, but for a good cause (well that may be a matter of opinion). As much as I dislike it and think it's screwed up, I think it's still needed from what I see around me where I live, and that's why I support it.

If I believed we could get rid of it and have people hired fairly based upon qualifications and nothing else, than I'd be against it, but in areas like this, I just don't see it happening.

[ShunNakamura]

You still need to make sure people hire correctly(in other words best man/woman gets the job) BUT you DON'T need to do that with quotas. It may take some man power(providing more jobs.. and America could possibly use some more jobs) so it isn't an easy way out. But how often is the easy way, the right way? Quotas are the easy and lazy way out.

If the government is willing to take the easy way out on difficult problems, what is that teaching the upcoming Americans.. I mean really, people are lazy enough as is... and unfortunately I am one of them.. I have been changing that though.