Attention all soldiers

[ShunNakamura]

If my superiors want something done, it's my job to do it. "Ours is not to question why, ours is but to do and die."

At the time of my last post, I diregarded this lest I lose my calm.

This saying in my opinion is the climax of stupidity. We have a God-given brain, why shouldn't we use? To question authority is what we, in my area at least, are taught in school. You should always show another respect due to a living person, but that does not mean you can't question them.

Authority is no better then the individual, in many cases the individual may show more intelligence and/or common sense.

This I know is a pet peeve of mine, but following something blind is unwise. If we were meant to do so God would have made us like bee's or ants, with a hive brain and little individuality.

As I said this is a pet peeve of mine, so if I took it out of context, and/or offended anyone, please accept my extended appologies.

[Jebus]

If my superiors want something done, it's my job to do it. "Ours is not to question why, ours is but to do and die."

Tch. That's never a good thing. You should ALWAYS question authority. If you don't, you may end up being forced to commit atrocities simply cause your superiors order it. Always always always question your orders. There is NO excuse not to. Even if it's the policy of the US military, and you get court martialed for refusing to obey orders. That is still no excuse.

[UltimaLimit]

Try and look at it from a soldier's perspective: "Hmm... kill people who are shooting at me or question orders and risk getting court-martialed?" Tough choice.

Being a soldier is a job like any other in one sense. Your boss tells you to do something, so you do it or you get in trouble. Now, if a soldier recieves orders to rape or something, he might want to have a word with his CO about it, but come on.

(I know, I'm dragging my thread further off-topic, but I'm hoping to kill that particular side discussion before it gets any farther.)

[ShunNakamura]

I don't really care what it is. If I disaggree or don't understand I will question. If they try to get me in trouble for using my god-given abilities I will show them a "fight". Even though I am a pacifist, I will fight for what I believe in. And I believe in using one's brain.

Now if you don't disagree or have any questions, then it is fine to follow orders... afterall you do aggree, at least on some scale.

On a soldier's view I am sorta stumped.. what is really different? If a commander was making a bludemental order and you questioned it you could save lives. Which is a much bigger impact then would generally be made. So I guess for a soldier the results are just much larger.

[Shadow Nexus]

Shadow Nexus -- The "interest" of the current operation is the freedom of the Iraqi people. How are you against that? Like I said earlier, is it freedom you're against, or just other people's freedom?

That sounds preety naive to me. I do not believe any of the governors of USA is really interested in Iraqi freedom as they are in having a puppet goverment to control the region. Hell, I don't even believe this freedom is such, mainly because now they are at the edge of a civil war. You speak of freedom according to American standards, and I do not mean by that with "as free as USA", I mean with that what the goverment calls freedom od a country, wich more or less translates to puppet democracies or dictatorships (whatever suits the situation better, of course a democracy is better since it keeps rebellions reduced) serving US interests. How can a democracy be a puppet? Easy, just keep the corporations in control, after all, in capitgalism the power is theirs.

[nik0tine]

It may be due to the strategetic location. I don't know that.

Take a look at a map of the Middle East. Suddenly, it will all make sense.

Also, I would just like to note that that United States has always set up puppet governments. In fact, it has never set up anything other than a puppet government. The argument that we are going to "give the Iraqi's freedom" is a bunk argument, because history has proven that to be false. Nobody invades a country or starts a war, so they can help other people. Anyone who believes that is living in a fantasy world.

[DarkLadyNyara]

were talking about allowing Sodom to torture his people in exchange for oil contracts (thus my rather snide "blood for oil" comment, there....).

We were allied with him while the worst of the atrocities happened. That's what I was trying to point out. We did allow him to get away with killing his people, until he moved in on our friends in Kuwait. (And Saudi, which we know has ties to Al-Queda. Now that is "blood-for-Oil") By the way, I don't agree with the whole blood for oil refrain, I find it rather simplistic.

[DMKA]

Am I the only one who knows who placed Saddam in power in the first god damn place? I'm beginning to think I am. =/

I agree with ed. I think it was ok because Bush Sr was threatened. Bush Jr has brought it up over...and over...and over, until people started mentioning it, then he shut up about it. I think this made it "ok" among a few other things, but not the bullsh!t the majority of the country seems to be eating up.

[Sasquatch]

I will say this. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. At certain times, we helped out powers that later became enemies, but only because they were against a common enemy of our own.

You know that nobody who wears a business suit can be anything bad...

As for "ours is not to question why, ours is but to do and die"... Y'all have obviously never been in the military, and know nothing about military law. I'm not talking about getting an order to go slaughter innocent women and children and not questioning it--that would be an unlawful order, and it's not just our right, it's our obligation to disobey such an order. Officers are put in place because they are supposed to know what orders to give and how to give them. But if there is a lawful order, or an order that we don't know for sure is unlawful, the soldiers will not take the heat for it, the leadership will, and the soldiers should carry it out. For example... If we see people with weapons they should have in a building, we might get an order to eliminate the possible threat--they're not going hunting with RPGs, trust me. (Well the are, just not for animals.) So we fire into the building, and lo and behold, there was a civilian in there. In that case, the soldiers did what we had to do, as did the commanding officer, and if anybody's gonna get in trouble for what happened, it'll be the officer. On the other hand, if I see somebody with an RPG pointed out a window at my vehicle, I don't care if there's half a dozen kids standing behind the guy, I'm behind a 40mm automatic grenade launcher and that window is about to get much, much larger. And if I get an order not to fire, and I discover than I am in imminent danger, I will fire anyway until the threat is eliminated--the situation will be investigated and the furthest it would go would be an Article 32 hearing, not even a court-martial.

We are trained to follow orders without hesitation. If something goes wrong because we followed orders, we should not be held accountable for it, it's the responsibility of whoever gave that order.

Oh yeah. If it was such a "vendetta", then Bush Sr. would have gone in and taken Saddam out in the first place. But no, we went in, accomplished the goal, and left.

ShunNakura -- If a Commander was making the right order, and I questioned it, it could cost lives. Looking at both sides of the issue, who's blood would I rather have on my hands--those of my soldiers, my friends, my brothers, because I questioned an order, or those of Iraqis that might or might not be innocent?

UltimaLimit -- Thanks. We appreciate it.

[DarkLadyNyara]

We are trained to follow orders without hesitation. If something goes wrong because we followed orders, we should not be held accountable for it, it's the responsibility of whoever gave that order.

Point taken.

[ShunNakamura]

Everyone is accountable for thier own actions.. even if that action is to follow orders.

Yes there are two sides, you could save lives or you could harm lives. depending on whether or not you are right. That was what my comment about it being on a larger scale was.

Yes the officers are put in charge because they are "supposed" to know what they are talking about. But everyone... and I repeat everyone makes mistakes. Which is way questioning is so good. If an order was handed down, I would at least run it through my mind first, if I could see reason in it, it probably wouldn't bother me, if however I couldn't find reason, I sure will go ask. "No question is a dumb question".

Actually to tell the truth the biggest way to earn my dissent and arguments is by hidding information from me... reason being I may not be able to see reason if I dont' have the whole truth, and I will stick by what I think is right, to the end.


We are obviousally of two different mentalities so I possibly I should not even have posted this post.. but I always hang on for awhile... I will try to end this here, unless I see something I feel compelled to respond to, I will stay out of the thread and try to allow to stay on-topic.

and once agian, be safe.

[Sasquatch]

If an order was handed down, I would at least run it through my mind first, if I could see reason in it, it probably wouldn't bother me, if however I couldn't find reason, I sure will go ask. "No question is a dumb question".

There are dumb questions. And if you went to ask, you might have the situation explained to you, or you'll just be told "you'll do it because I told you to do it, now get the hell out of here." And that's only when you have time to question an order.

Yes, officers are supposed to know what they're doing. But they know better than I do--they've had more training, they've had more experience, and they've been in longer. Plus, they're the ones that go to the briefings and such and find out the exact situation. So, for the most part, I have no place to question their orders. Hell, if it's a lawful order and time is of the essence, I could get punished for hesitation to question the order.

[CloudSquallandZidane]

Sasquatch is right on this piece, the only reason not to accept an order is because it doesnt comply with the ROE of the mission, or UCMJ, or whatever a rape, torture, blind, etc. order might fall under.

If u refuse an order it could cost ur fellow soldiers lives, so i would choose wisely what orders u do and dont follow, i wouldnt say never question orders though. I would say question orders that warrant a question common sense tells us which orders these are.

[MoonsEcho]

Most of this thread disgusts me, so I will only say "thank you" to Ultima Limit, for your expression of gratitude. That is what the thread was originally started for, anyway. It's good to know there are still people who show appreciation instead of idiocy. So again, thanks. ^^

[theundeadhero]

Sasquatch is right on this piece, the only reason not to accept an order is because it doesnt comply with the ROE of the mission, or UCMJ, or whatever a rape, torture, blind, etc. order might fall under.

If u refuse an order it could cost ur fellow soldiers lives, so i would choose wisely what orders u do and dont follow, i wouldnt say never question orders though. I would say question orders that warrant a question common sense tells us which orders these are.

You all act like this is Vietnam and soldiers are faced with these choices everyday. It's not! The odds of an order like that coming down is like, once in a lifetime. I have never had an order I even had to think twice about, and thats not saying I follow blindly. When it comes time to shoot, you shoot. There's no official order needed. Early this morning I was on motor pool gaurd. A mortar round came down in the motor pool across the street and hit a tank. It caught on fire and the rounds inside it started to cook off. Did I need any order to do anything? NO, you already know what to do and you instantly react to any given situation. The ROE and such stuff is there so you know what to do when the situation comes up. When it's there, no official leadership is telling everyone what to do. Where not video game characters that just stand there and wait to get told anything. The leadership is there to make sure we do the right thing and not break the rules.