criminal rights

[ShunNakamura]

see, your own anology helps to prove my point. How many times where you given "time out", only to be put back in time out for the very thing that got you put there the first time? Punishment is obviously not a deterrant. What you have to do is explain to people why what they did was wrong and help them to be a better person, along with the punishment. Punishment alone is not the key. All punishment does is give you the time to figure out how not to get caught the next time.

Hmm.. Actually I got paddled rather then Time out. But anyways I never commited the same thing twice... I'll tell you that much... Being paddled at a young age isn't fun. Now, of course, it wouldn't bother me, but father has also evolved his punishment techniques.. He punishes me where it hurts worse.. I have almost never been grounded.. Not a deterent for me, well not usually. However, take away my book and computer access and I go nuts.. utterly so. That is PAINFUL.

Anyways point being, punishment can be a deterent you just got to make sure it bothers the person you are trying to deter. Sometimes it may seem inhumane.. but I doubt they'll want to be caught again.

[Sasquatch]

Actually, I was rarely punished more than once for things I did. (I wasn't put in "time-out" either, I got my ass kicked, and I learned damn well from it.) The only thing I did more than once, prettymuch, was being lazy with my schoolwork. Quite often I wouldn't do my homework or study or anything, and even though I made great grades in class, my lack of motivation out of class brought down my average something fierce. So I was beat, grounded, etc. quite often for that. One time I was made to not step out of my room except to go to the bathroom, school, or come into the kitchen to make the only thing my parents allowed me to eat for that time, which was a bologna sandwich. And I didn't have a TV or games or a computer or anything like that in my room, either.

The point is, even though there's obviously a difference between children and grown adults (or, rather, there should be), punishment serves mainly as a deterrant for crime. As in "If I do (whatever crime), I'll have to go through (whatever punishment), and I don't want to do (punishment), so I won't do (crime).

ShunNakamura makes a good point--as long as the punishment effects the criminal, it will serve as a deterrant. Some kids may not give a damn if they have to stand in a corner for a couple minutes and not get attention paid to them, but some kids are absolutely crushed if they have their games, computer, freedom, etc. taken away from them. Sometimes different types of punishment effect different types of people. The only problem is that it would be difficult to implement a system like that, plus, as was pointed out, some would consider it "inhumane"... I guarantee you, if we started caning people like they do in Singapore, we'd have a hell of a lot less crime. But, obviously, that's not really an option. The only thing we can do is make our prisons tougher.

[AkiraMakie]

Well, you two must've grew up as good, never breaking the same rule twice kids. Me, i must be criminal minded then, cause the only thing ass whippings did for me is teach me not to get caught twice for the same stuff. I mean, getting beatings, or whippings, or spankings, or wahtever you want to call it, only works but so many times. I mean, After awhile, i didnt even bother trying to hide the fact that i was doing bad stuff cause i was no longer afraid of getting a beating. I guess it all depends on how you grew up when it comes to this one.

[ShunNakamura]

Well I think I pointed it out in my above thread. You must punish the person so it hurts them. If not it won't work. So once the punishment stops being effective you must change. I know my parents did so.

And anyways I believe it was when I was in 2nd or 3rd grade, I used to get up at night and sneak stuff from the fridge and make noise. This is one of the few repeating crimes I did. Mainly cause I always got away with it. I could get back up in my bed before Father could do anything.. and my bed always was unstable.

Father wised up, and since we were making an addition on the house at the time he took a 8-10 foot long 2x4 and hid it near the hallway leading to my room... I made it to my bed intime.. but so did the 2x4. And I'll tell you know that that hurt like HELL. I couldn't walk right for several days afterwards... nope no more making father mad for me... he might use a steel bar next time.

Or at least that is what I thought at the time. now it wouldnt' bother me much.... but now Father will find a way to disable me in other ways, such as restricting computer access, or my access to books.

Grounding and timeouts never did work on me, but they sure work on my sisters.. they are addicted to being social.. locking them in a room for a day or two teaches them to be better... however they tend to repeat... at least when mom is the punisher.. when Father does it it is another story... He has left bruises just by grabbing our wrists before, if he decides it is paddling time it hurts. not to mention he is brainy enough to hit you where it hurts, whether that is paddling, refusing to buy new clothes, or refusing to allow computer access, or any number of things, Father will do it... even if it would discomfort himself a bit.

[AkiraMakie]

Well I think I pointed it out in my above thread. You must punish the person so it hurts them. If not it won't work. So once the punishment stops being effective you must change. I know my parents did so.

And anyways I believe it was when I was in 2nd or 3rd grade, I used to get up at night and sneak stuff from the fridge and make noise. This is one of the few repeating crimes I did. Mainly cause I always got away with it. I could get back up in my bed before Father could do anything.. and my bed always was unstable.

Father wised up, and since we were making an addition on the house at the time he took a 8-10 foot long 2x4 and hid it near the hallway leading to my room... I made it to my bed intime.. but so did the 2x4. And I'll tell you know that that hurt like HELL. I couldn't walk right for several days afterwards... nope no more making father mad for me... he might use a steel bar next time.

Or at least that is what I thought at the time. now it wouldnt' bother me much.... but now Father will find a way to disable me in other ways, such as restricting computer access, or my access to books.

Grounding and timeouts never did work on me, but they sure work on my sisters.. they are addicted to being social.. locking them in a room for a day or two teaches them to be better... however they tend to repeat... at least when mom is the punisher.. when Father does it it is another story... He has left bruises just by grabbing our wrists before, if he decides it is paddling time it hurts. not to mention he is brainy enough to hit you where it hurts, whether that is paddling, refusing to buy new clothes, or refusing to allow computer access, or any number of things, Father will do it... even if it would discomfort himself a bit.

Well, i didnt grow up with my father, so i never had to worry about stuff like that, and as for my mother, well, she tried to switch it up. to stuff like punishment, but she wasnt home often cause she was usually at work most of the time. So i was home for a good portion of the day by myself. So any little silly punishment she could hand down would be ignored. I had it pretty easy now that i think about it.

[ShunNakamura]

True about the parent at work thing... I mean dad works a lot know.. and it is only as of late that my sisters have started to get out of hand... they won't try dad's mettle.. .but mom.. that is another story.

Which is completey off topic but bleh...

Criminals lose rights when they go to prison that is that. Punishment can deter crime, but won't alwasy, particually if people don't focus enough on making sure the criminal can't stand the punishment. Also Prisons should focus on rehabilitation... many times punishment alone will not work. But punishment+rehab works where rehab or punishment alone would not.

This is how I see this thread so far.

[Cloud No.9]

okay enough about various parents.

saying that america has a high prison ratio due to more laws is false. look at gun crime for instance, this isn't caused by the ability to have guns, look at the gun ownership rates in canada and switzerland and look at their gun crime rates, and are there any doubts that shooting someone or shoving a gun under their nose is against the law? so if more laws and more guns can't be blamed for this crime what can? america is unique for this, and what is also unique about america? it's soceity. it's not it's mix of people, it's not it's richness, it's not it's poorness all, of these are visible in other countries. what is so unique about america is it's society and the rich-poor gap. and that must be looked at to find a cause of crime.

punishment does not stop crime. we've been using punishment for thousands of years no, has crime dropped? no it has risen. keep hitting something with a hammer does not always work. why not try something different? if it's not broken don't fix it, well the punishment is broken and has never worked.

[ShunNakamura]

But cloud punishment does work. IF you make sure it is a punishment that the criminal will not want to be put through again. Keep in mind even if someone does not think of something consciousally, their subconcious may still supress certian actions.

As for the "spawn of the moment" crimes. For that you need some punishemnt(perhaps the subconcious surpression will help there) and rehab.

Actually effective Rehab + effective punishment is what would deter crime... unfortunately the US lacks both of those values.

[Cloud No.9]

in britain people used to hang for theft, be burned at the stake for blasphemy, be put in the stocks, the rack, be hung drawn and quarted. once these were done once people didn't stop crime. it continued. after these were done 100 times crime continued after they were the millionth time crime continued and people decided that it was all abit of an inhuman idea in the first place. but tough punishment failed, is still failing and will forever fail.

[ShunNakamura]

Ah, but you see some people do not fear death. If I want to do something, the threat of death won't really deter me, unless I think about it alot.

However lets say a form of torture so unbearable that the thought of it alone makes me go mad... that would definately deter me.

However Rehab is also a must.

[Sasquatch]

Cruel punishment works, would work, and has always worked, what don't people understand about that? There will always be crime--no amount of punishment will ever completely erase crime. But would you steal if you knew you were gonna get your hand chopped off for it? Would you vandalize somebody's property if you knew that some martial arts guy was gonna take a cane and beat the hell out of you with it? I don't think so.

[AkiraMakie]

Cruel punishment works, would work, and has always worked, what don't people understand about that? There will always be crime--no amount of punishment will ever completely erase crime. But would you steal if you knew you were gonna get your hand chopped off for it? Would you vandalize somebody's property if you knew that some martial arts guy was gonna take a cane and beat the hell out of you with it? I don't think so.

obviously that does work neither because in other countries that have all of those cruel punishments, people still steal and vandalize and murder people. Are you gonna tell me that those countries with those punishments dont have crime?

[Sasquatch]

What the hell is wrong with y'all. Nobody said that any country doesn't have crime! There will always be crime, nothing we can do would prevent crime entirely.

Damn, what's so hard to understand here?

However, countries with stricter laws and harsher punishments have LESS crime than do others that pander to "criminal rights".

[Cloud No.9]

switzerland, scandanavia, canada, all have low rates of crime and wanna guess what else they have? sentences based more on rehab than punishment. so called "light punishment". countries with strict punishment can also have low crime rates. true enough but again alot of this is again down to society. having heavy or light punishment would still fail in america until the country changes. light punishment has proven to be more effective in rehabilition of offenders, giving them skills to become tax paying workers not sitting on the dole but too scared to commit another crime. heavy punishment still does not deal with the main cause of crime, light punishment does.

[ShunNakamura]

That is why you use BOTH....

How many times must I try and say that.

Hard Punishment will help deter those who can follow other routes.. and for those people who, no matter how harsh the punishment, will still commit crime there would be rehab... and punishment.. perhaps they will realize it is worse then they thought.. and take their new rahabliitated self and make a new start.

BOTH is the choice we should make. It is just like phsycological illness, medicine, doesn't always work alone. Therapy, doesn't always work alone.. but combine both together and success rates raise.

So combine both harsher punishment and better rehab. Because currently we lack BOTH!