criminal rights

[Garland]

Prisons shouldn't give inmates any perks unavailable to poor law abiding citizens. Prisons offer television, education/job training, etc. There are honest poor people that don't have that. As for prisons being an endless cycle due to excons having a difficult time getting hired for decent work - again, there are honest people that are also finding it impossible to find decent work. Should a poor person be able to live a better life by committing a crime? If prisons offer so much that a poor person can't afford, and even further (in some posters' ideal scenarios) gave the excon a better chance at finding a fair paying job, who but the most moral of the poor wouldn't jump at the chance at prison life? Prisons should never make a persons life better. We don't send people to prisons to make their lives better, even in the long run. We send people to college for that. The two shouldn't be confused.

[Sasquatch]

Nice, Garland. Not bad.

Tent City has a great affect in lowering crime rates in its area, I've read about it and seen things about it. It's a real prison--no comfy living conditions, strict rules and schedules, healthy but basic food, required work... It's what prisons were made to me. And it works rather well.

"all men have the capability to be good it's just a matter of bringing that out not punishing the bad."

There are two ways to "bring out the good". One is to train, spoil, coddle, and show love and respect to the person. That's not what prison is for. The other, more effective way, is to find the bad and supress it. Just like a dog--you can train a dog to sit by giving it food and playing with it when it obeys you, or you can train it by smacking it when it doesn't. Either way, it'll learn. And don't try the "well they'll just become more rebellious and violent" line, because if that's the case, they need to be punished more. If you smack a dog on the nose because it disobeys you, and it tries to take your hand off, do you give it a treat, or smack it again?

False convictions are not nearly as common as some people think they are. And nobody's saying that we should beat the hell out of prisoners all the time and take away their human rights. There's a long way to go from real punishment to infringing upon human civil rights. Even so, would YOU have a problem with spending six months in jail if it meant the guy in the next block wouldn't get out and rape and kill another person?

[AkiraMakie]

...Even so, would YOU have a problem with spending six months in jail if it meant the guy in the next block wouldn't get out and rape and kill another person?

I dont know about you, but i would definately have a problem with spending 6months in jail for a crime i didnt commit. i dont care what the guy on the next block did.

[jrgen]

The problem with criminals isn't that they can't find jobs. It's that they're not afraid of doing what they did to get into prison in the first place. And if they're not afraid of going back to prison--if they're not afraid to the point that they would never want to even get a parking ticket--then the prison system isn't doing it's job.

Sure, if you follow the american model,
trying to oppress and break down the prisoners so much they just don't dare to commit crimes again.
But if such system was successful, you'd turn all prisoners into mentally ill humans,
capable of doing nothing and those aren't very profitable to the society.
There are also alternative forms of fighting crime.
You can try to rehabilitate the prisoners and then help them get jobs when they get out.
A person with a job is a lot less likely to commit crimes,
since unemployment is the biggest cause of crime.

[Sasquatch]

AkiraMakie -- Sorry, I would rather give up a little of my time so that somebody else wouldn't have to give up their life. But I guess I'm too cruel and uncompassionate.

jrgen -- Unemployment is the biggest cause of crime? Hell no. Criminals usually don't have jobs, but that's certainly not because their crime is caused by them not having a job. Many times, criminals do things to dupport their drug habit--and when you've got a drug habit, jobs don't last very long.

[Cloud No.9]

prison is not a deterrant never has been never will be no matter how bad you make it. there is no fear about it to make people stop being criminals, the death penalty has never stopped murders has it? or has the murder rate in america dropped since the last time i looked?

fear is not a deterrant do you really think that the little junkie who breaks into homes before he does it thinks "better not do this i could end up back in jail" of course he doesn't he does it because it's either habit or the only way he can see. you punish him by putting him in jail, let him out and do you think his mindset has changed? no because he is still in the same situation. change his prospects, his situation and you change his future and he no longer commits crime.

[ShunNakamura]

Actually the reason the death penalty doesn't work well in the U.S. is cause of the fact that it isn't a guarentee.. and even if you are sentenced to death it will be years before it is carried out. Too long.. Swift punishment and precise punishment is what would deter crime.

However many murders are spur of the moment things. they just go too far when they are angry, etc. Now those should be locked up.

Also in was stated in the books I have read that after prisons became less harsh in the 1800's crime went up.. I wonder why? Those prisons used to be the equilivant of our solitary confinement.. except you served your entire term there wiht them shoving food under doors or what not.. cruel? yes. detterent? yes. If it isn't a deterent then either someone is really desperate, or really dense, or just plain crazy and doesnt' care for consequents.. and that is type of people you won't easily stop.

[Cloud No.9]

the rise in crime in america had more to do with the loss of the american dream, the depression and a huge rise in population.

statistics are hard to pin on these thing like the statistic you quoted before about crime going up when one prison went lighter. most of these things are scewed to fit a view. for instance prison went soft on month 1, crime went up on month 1. that proves nothing as most people who did the crimes would not have been in contact with these new jails and the people in them wouldn't have got out yet.

the death sentence needs to be a long process. can't be going round hanging people one a whim can we? i would be bitterly upset if i was hung after a trial with no appeal or chance to have it over turned.

and do you really think that before people commit murders they think "ah i won't be killed for a few years yet anyway so i'm okay always wanted to see if this baby worked anyway." and if the law gets changed for quicker deaths they'll all think "better not kill this women the law just got changed i'll be killed in a month after my trial now, i'll just put the gun down"

[ShunNakamura]

I did state that many murders were spur of the moment, did I not?

There is nothing you can realy do about those, so I simply ignore that when discusing punishment.. won't matter because it is unmeditated.

Also my statistics are for when prisons FIRST came out in Europe in the oh... 1800's... did I say that in my last post, I thought I did.. ah well maybe not and I am too lazy to check at this time.. want to go out for a bike ride.

Prisons being harsh would mean people wouldn't do crime, not because they think about it in the normal sense, but rather they would just intuitively avoid doing something to land them there... obviousally there would be exceptions. I can tell you right now it woud be so easy for me to steal from our local carry-out.. not to mention Good-Boy dustin wouldn't be suspect. But the thought doesnt' cross my mind unless I purposely point my mind in that direction. On further analysis I have found that I am afraid of being caught... My dad would make my life a living hell.. and my mother.. lets not go there. Not to mention the trouble I would get into wiht the law.. But you see these thoughts, I don't think them, my subconsious handles that and surpresses such thoughts.

So tougher prisons.. not so tough as to be terribly cruel.. but worse then the life, of a person in poverty, would have some effect.

Also I understand we don't want to hang innocent people, that remark was simple truth though. Swift executions have a larger deterence on crime, then ones where you have a fair chance to get off, or at least to prolong your life to a ripe age. Now unless tech gets to the point where wrong convictions are not present or are very, very, very few, we can't do swift executions due to the fact that we MAKE mistakes... or at least more then I would like.

[Raistlin]

There is no real deterrent for murder. Most murders are momentary lapses of judgment due to anger, hatred, greed, fear, et cetera, where the consequences are ignored. Planned out murders are due to arrogance about avoiding the consequences. Just because prison doesn't deter murder doesn't mean murderers shouldn't be punished, however.

Now, prison is a deterrent for other crimes: theft, for example. Breaking-and-entering. Rape, even. Most other crimes are conceivably deterred by the threat of punishment.

Also, I don't know about most prisons, but maximum security prisons are not a nice place to be.

[ShunNakamura]

With the pre-meditatied murders if the punishment was harsh enough... it might deter some of those arrogant people.. due to the fact that no one would wnat to go through.. of course such a punishment would have to be so cruel that I don't think anyone in their right mind could administer it... Hell killing them would be far nicer then some of the stuff that went through my mind as I wrote that. And I think of life as the most precious thing. *shudders*

And I can immagine that they aren't comforatable(prisons that is), but how many petty theives are sent to maximum security? I doubt the number is high. But yeah.. or prisons do need to focus on rehab... while being a place people don't want to go.. if that is possible.

[AkiraMakie]

AkiraMakie -- Sorry, I would rather give up a little of my time so that somebody else wouldn't have to give up their life. But I guess I'm too cruel and uncompassionate.

jrgen -- Unemployment is the biggest cause of crime? Hell no. Criminals usually don't have jobs, but that's certainly not because their crime is caused by them not having a job. Many times, criminals do things to dupport their drug habit--and when you've got a drug habit, jobs don't last very long.

so now your saying most people in jail have a drug habit? or are you saying being on drugs makes you a criminal? lol i like debating with you cause sometimes you make some of the wildest statements.

Many things lead people to commit crimes. Drug habits are one of them, but not nessasarily the biggest one. There is no way to really tell what reasons people commit crimes. so i refuse to aruge with you on that point. But i will say unemployment and proverty is bigger driving force to crime than drug use. If you ever look at places that have high unemployment and proverty, Crime is always up. But in places with high employment and little to no proverty, crime is always down. the facts speak for themselves. But, you probably cant relate to that because you've probably never lived in an area that was low employment and proverty stricken. so your mind may not be able to put those things together. Theres nothing wrong with that though. I envy you. I wish i had grown up living in a neighborhood where everything was nice and peachy. But i grew up in DC, it wasnt like that for me.

as for the drug users...

There are people in jail for no other reason but because they are on drugs. The havent stolen anything, killed anybody, raped anybody. the only thing they are guilt of is drug use and buying controlled substances. Now do they deserve to be treated like animals, or do they deserve help. In fact, drug addicts that go to jail because of their addiction shouldnt even be in jail. They need help. but thats another story.

[ShunNakamura]

Drug addicts definately should get rehab help... serioussally.. that not onlly is unhealthy for htem, but it can leave them in a messed up state of mind, not to mention to pay for they may commit more crimes.

Now if they steal, they should be treated as a normal thief, but of course with drug help.. forced drug help.

If they murdered someone.. well they are just a murderer with a drug problem... same term as a murderer but wiht forced rehab for drugs.

If they sell drugs... and there is proof someone died as a result, then it would be... err what is it manslaughter? where you murder someone wihtout intent or some such. yeah anyways I am certian you get my drift.. if the crimanal has an obvious problem try to stop the so called circle, but also make prison rough... that way there are TWO deterents to crime... that should help more then either one individually.

[AkiraMakie]

Drug addicts definately should get rehab help... serioussally.. that not onlly is unhealthy for htem, but it can leave them in a messed up state of mind, not to mention to pay for they may commit more crimes.

Now if they steal, they should be treated as a normal thief, but of course with drug help.. forced drug help.

If they murdered someone.. well they are just a murderer with a drug problem... same term as a murderer but wiht forced rehab for drugs.

If they sell drugs... and there is proof someone died as a result, then it would be... err what is it manslaughter? where you murder someone wihtout intent or some such. yeah anyways I am certian you get my drift.. if the crimanal has an obvious problem try to stop the so called circle, but also make prison rough... that way there are TWO deterents to crime... that should help more then either one individually.

no i was talking only about the people who are locked up, only because they are on drugs. now a drug addict that commits a crimed needs to be locked up. plain and simple.

[Sasquatch]

Can't say much now, tired, about to get to bed.

I didn't say most people in jail had a drug habit. I said many of them do. My main point was that poverty isn't the cause of crime. Crime is the cause of poverty and unemployment. Not the only cause, of course, but a large one. And yes, I have lived some pretty damn bad places, where poverty and crime are all over the place. I don't know why you would like debating with me, because I have to re-explain most everything I say because you don't understand it at first.

Yes, drug addicts need treatment as well as jail time. And they get both. It's not like they just take some addict off the street and toss him in a cell, if the person needs therapy, medicine, etc. to help him get over his addiction, it's available to him. Nobody wants a prison full of addicts going through withdrawls, obviously.

There is a mandatory appeal for all death sentences, which usually takes more than fifteen years. I agree with that...the appeal, anyway, not the time. Maybe five years. But for a guy to get a dozen appeals and spend forty or fifty years waiting to be executed, that's ridiculous.

(Edit: Whether or not you agree with drugs being illegal, if somebody commits a drug-related crime, whether it be buying, selling, possessing, etc., he has still committed a crime and should be punished accordingly.)

Remember the guy a long while ago in Singapore? Early 90's, I believe? He was caught spray-painting a guy's garage door, I believe, and they caned him. Somebody was actually trained in martial arts to carry out the sentence, and the schmuck stood there while this guy whacked him with a cane. Tore him up. Now, I'm not saying that's humane, and I'm not saying that's the way we should do things...but crime is low in Singapore. Do the math.