The environment

[Cloud No.9]

redneck please don't turn this thread into a "i want you banned thread" because of all things it won't work.

most of the quotes you gave there are sarcasm, irony and sardonism. i wasn't saying africans deserved to die because they didn't vote. it was intended to be a little bit sarcastic. and most of the time "you" refers more to america and it's government than an actual specific person.

and what is wrong with forcing a very rich nation to do something to help the planet.

so does gladly helping african countries mean charging them huge interest on loans? some of which can hardly afford to pay the interest of let alone the loan itself.

and i seriously doubt your idea that volcanic eruptions give off more cfc's than man. someone else said this to me regarding co2 and i found it to be false i would also believe the same about cfc emmisions.

and any countries that can't afford food (maybe from interest charged from loans) (or from famine caused by rising temperature) aren't going to be buying fridges now are they? because the one thing i would want before i buy a fridge would be food to put in it and maybe a nice electrical socket and power to use it.

and i wouldn't mind the government telling people they can't buy hugel ineffeicent vehicles that release huge amounts of co2 and other gases as well as using up a lots anf lots of fuel. and on top of that the ride height of such vehicles is dangerous for both pedestrians and other road users.

[The Redneck]

redneck please don't turn this thread into a "i want you banned thread" because of all things it won't work.

First--did I say I want you banned? (I can save you some time scanning--the answer is "no')

Second, it obviously won't work. And I still say it's a mystery how you get away with that.

most of the quotes you gave there are sarcasm, irony and sardonism

Because "I hope your nation suffers epidemic death and calamity is sooo ironic....

and what is wrong with forcing a very rich nation to do something to help the planet.

Same thing that's wrong with forcing a very poor nation to do something to help the planet. Forcing people to do things is bad. You do it when it's absolutely necessary, but you don't do it because of some Chicken-Little conspiracy. And you especially don't do it because you hate the people you're planning to force.

so does gladly helping african countries mean charging them huge interest on loans?

You mean when we hand out huge amounts of money to a country, we actually expect them to pay some of it back? And I do mean some, because a significant chunk of the foreign aid that goes to them is pretty much no-strings-attached--and that's not counting the billions of dollars of debt that are simply forgiven.

Show me a nation where the people are starving where:
A. People are allowed to own their own property.
B. People can elect their own leaders.
C. People are allowed to do business.
D. Corruption doesn't run the government.
The problem isn't that they don't have the resources, the problem is that they don't have the capitalism. And when we give 'em that, you whine about it too.

Or in other words, your claim that we're murdering African people by expecting them to pay what they owe doesn't have a shred of truth to it. Please stop.

and i seriously doubt your idea that volcanic eruptions give off more cfc's than man.

Doubt all you want. Or look it up--I don't give a dry fart in a high wind one way or the other.

and any countries that can't afford food (maybe from interest charged from loans) (or from famine caused by rising temperature) aren't going to be buying fridges now are they?

Because of course we don't store food in refridgerated warehouses, or use refridgerated trucks to haul them so they don't spoil, or anything like that--bad for the environment, you know.

and i wouldn't mind the government telling people they can't buy hugel ineffeicent vehicles that release huge amounts of co2 and other gases as well as using up a lots anf lots of fuel.

Has it occured to you that if these vehicles were anywhere near as awful as you seem to think they are, nobody would buy them anyway?

[eestlinc]

Has it occured to you that if these vehicles were anywhere near as awful as you seem to think they are, nobody would buy them anyway?

Yea, because obviously all Americans make their car purchasing decisions based on practicality.

[Cloud No.9]

before you read this post remember to keep track of how long it takes for you to read.

you believe the entire developed world is against america? japan? france? uk? germany? spain? italy? even the so called new europe? because these people signed up to kyoto? is america really that paranoid that it believes these countries are set against them and not busy tring to protect the enviroment?

capatilism doesn't give you a vote in your government neither does it prevent curroption in government. so if you want a suffering capatalist country then most of africa fits nicely.

capatalism is not a cure for the world's problems. neither is democracy. these people don't care ho runns their country. they care about whether they will be able to eat today. 30,000 people a day of starvation on this earth. take a while and think about that. that sin't counting aids or disease. that is death from hunger and malnutrition. a horrible agonising death simply caused by not being able to put food to mouth. this isn't about who runs these countries. this about giving these people enough resources to be able to feed themselves.

dropping the debt on these african countries would be a start. 11 million people a year. at what time do we stop putting a price and profit on this? the africa commission says that $75 billion is needed to start saving africa. this is not a huge amount of money. i'll put 75 billion dollars into a global scale for you. if every rich country citizen bought half a stick of chewing gum everyday for year. that's $75 billion.

drop the trade taxes on africa. this would increase africa's income by 25 billion dollars. that's a third of the above.

the debt is unpayable. it is starvation to continue it. tanzania is a prime example "in many severely indebted low income countries debt service is more than 100 per cent of government revenue and export earnings. Total debt in Tanzania, for example, is 700 per cent of government revenue, surpassing by far the sustainable level of 280 per cent."

we'll continue with tanzania. 30% new aid is used to pay old debts. more money is spent on debt per person than is spent on health and education combined. 40% of export earning go on debt.

tanzania is a country where people are starving to death. count to 3 in your head. every time you do that an african has died purely of not being able to eat.

these debts are not re-payable it is idiocicy and frankly genocide to think and act otherwise. more people will die this year in africa of starvation than jews the nazis slaughtered. and for what? this amount of money is only to starve africa. our government throws away that amount of money happily. why not for once end the death of millions?

half hearted debt relief is not an answer out of the 42 poorest nations in the world (33 are african) 6 have received debt releif. debt there reduced by less than 10%. but there was no real change in debt burdens or obligations.

we could just say to these nations that the entire debt is wiped. that we will not step back and watch millions die. and charge them for the priveledge.

and the debt has been paid. profit has been made. nigeria borrowed $5 billion and has now paid 16 billion and still owes 36 billion. do we see a cycle there? a possible escape?

African nations pay $1.51 on debt service for every $1 received in foreign aid.

and if you want injustice in this world. iraq owes $400 billion. the us is pushing to have it written of. anyone want to have a guess how much africa owes? 10 times as much? 100 times as much? a thousand times as much? no actually all of sub-saharan africa owes less than africa. 300 billion dollars. but the us pushes for one country.

it is not an unacheivable goal. the first step is abolish debt to these countries. the second is to rebuild these countries. help these countries help themselves. give them tools, seeds, animals, generators, water pumps.

still counting those seconds? good cos i'm not finished.

154 000 deaths occour due to global warming a year.

redneck you do the pleasure that i have done you many a time and provide me with any kind of evidence that cfc emmissions are greater from volcanoes than they from human use. i provided you with the links you asked for please return this.

why would anyone in america who owns an suv know the cost of his emissions of ineffeciency or emmissions if he does not know the price of life.

okay now divide the maount of second required to read this post and divide it by 3. you just witnessed that many africans die.

now tell me again why we cannot afford to save those people.

[The Redneck]

capatilism doesn't give you a vote in your government neither does it prevent curroption in government. so if you want a suffering capatalist country then most of africa fits nicely.

Check A. and C. again.

capatalism is not a cure for the world's problems. neither is democracy.

Yes, actually, it is. That's why we're not starving in the capitalist countries. Wierd, ain't it?

the africa commission says that $75 billion is needed to start saving africa.

The people who want the money say they need $75 billion. Now, that's an unimpeachable source.... Not to mention more than half that amount has already been forgiven--forgiven, as in "well, you can't pay it, so don't bother".

i'll put 75 billion dollars into a global scale for you. if every rich country citizen bought half a stick of chewing gum everyday for year. that's $75 billion.

Has it occured to you that not every "rich country citizen" gives huge amounts of money to other countries?

redneck you do the pleasure that i have done you many a time and provide me with any kind of evidence that cfc emmissions are greater from volcanoes than they from human use.

First, how about doing me the favor that I'm supposed to be returning, and provide me with some kind of evidence of your claims? When you accuse people of genocide, it's good to have at least something resembling evidence....

Second, the eruptions of Mt. Pinatubo in the Philippines and Mt. Hudson in Chile caused a 15-20% loss of ozone in the high stratosphere and 50% over the Antarctic. And here's one with pictures. One eruption, 20% loss.

i provided you with the links you asked for please return this.

Uh... when?

Yea, because obviously all Americans make their car purchasing decisions based on practicality.

Because us eeeeeevil greedy capitalists don't care about money.

[nik0tine]

Yes, actually, it is. That's why we're not starving in the capitalist countries. Wierd, ain't it?

Maybe not for food, but for happiness? I would say so.

Second, the eruptions of Mt. Pinatubo in the Philippines and Mt. Hudson in Chile caused a 15-20% loss of ozone in the high stratosphere and 50% over the Antarctic. And here's one with pictures. One eruption, 20% loss.

Eruptions like that don't happen everyday. I don't know if this is true or not, but it would seem likely that in between the time that eruptions like that occur, the ozone could repait itself. When humans cause this it can't repair because it doesn't ever stop. Again, I don't know if that is true, it just seems logical.

[The Redneck]

Maybe not [starving] for food, but for happiness? I would say so.

If only all those starving people knew that they would be so desperately unhappy moving to a land of opportunity--hell, they'd never leave Cuba!!

Crude, I know, but come on--a statement like that just begs to be made fun of...

Eruptions like that don't happen everyday. I don't know if this is true or not, but it would seem likely that in between the time that eruptions like that occur, the ozone could repait itself. When humans cause this it can't repair because it doesn't ever stop. Again, I don't know if that is true, it just seems logical.

While eruptions the size of Pinatubo or Krakatoa or Mt. St. Helens don't happen every day, volcanic eruption are quite common--and many volcanoes that don't erupt still fire tons of gasses and smoke into the air every day. What humans cause is a tiny fraction of this amount...
And what humans cause is 4 to 8 times heavier than air. It doesn't go into the stratosphere where the Ozone layer is, it goes to the ground, where various bacteria eat it.

[nik0tine]

If only all those starving people knew that they would be so desperately unhappy moving to a land of opportunity--hell, they'd never leave Cuba!!

Crude, I know, but come on--a statement like that just begs to be made fun of...

You seem to have misunderstood my statement. Materialism more often than not (and some would argue always, but I won't go that far) brings missery. Capitalism promotes materialism. Therefore, people in a capitalistic society are more prone to be unhappy. This would explain why so many people aren't very "happy" in this country. Maybe not miserable, but happy? Most certainly not.

[Sasquatch]

You seem to have misunderstood my statement. Materialism more often than not (and some would argue always, but I won't go that far) brings missery. Capitalism promotes materialism. Therefore, people in a capitalistic society are more prone to be unhappy. This would explain why so many people aren't very "happy" in this country. Maybe not miserable, but happy? Most certainly not.

Because you know, the less you have, the happier you are. All those people in those poor African countries? Oh, they're high on life.

[Gnostic Yevon]

If only all those starving people knew that they would be so desperately unhappy moving to a land of opportunity--hell, they'd never leave Cuba!!

Crude, I know, but come on--a statement like that just begs to be made fun of...

You seem to have misunderstood my statement. Materialism more often than not (and some would argue always, but I won't go that far) brings missery. Capitalism promotes materialism. Therefore, people in a capitalistic society are more prone to be unhappy. This would explain why so many people aren't very "happy" in this country. Maybe not miserable, but happy? Most certainly not.

It doesn't have to lead to materialism at all. Sure I could see how all our ads promote buying things, but until the day the ad for xbox 360 or some other product includes a loaded gun pointed at my head, I don't have to buy anything. The thing is that people begin to buy stuff that they don't need and will use only once before it is junked. That isn't capitalism's fault. It's that people don't cultivate an active and satisfying life that doesn't revolve around buying stuff and going to amusement parks. Hell go for a hike. It's fun, and it isn't materialistic. Failure to get a life is your fault, not some impersonal "-ism".

[Cloud No.9]

you want a captalist country where the people are starving? i'll give you a few since africa lacks socialist or communist governments.

nigeria, ethiopa, uganda, tanzania, sudan, malawi, vietnam (socialists but still capatlist like scotland) cambodia.

considering 33 of the 41 world's poorest natiosn are in africa and not a single one are communist then i could have went on for a long time.

the problem with cfc's is.......... volcanoes happen on and off. so it happens and then the ozone layer reapirs itself over time. but if you keep pumping out high levels of the stuff the poor little atmosphere never gets a break. because other wise after toba we would have been further up creek than we already were.

and actually..... the africa commission isn's made of african countries and so it wants heehaw money from the west. it was anice little group set up bye people who wanted to find out the best way to help africa which didn't involve killing it off.

i don't expect every country citizen to give "huge amounts of money" to charity. we are basicly talking about 10p in every £100. not a huge amount to save millions of lives. god you could even tax that amount and noone would give a damn. but mister bank man likes collecting more than he is due regardless of who dies for his new car and pool.

and i have provided you with links everytime you have asked for them.

i think the deaths of millions does not need alink unless you want to tell me hat you belive they all live happily in nice big houses and have plenty to eat and a pool. look at africa and tell me tghat you don't see genocide. starving people is genocide. it was genocide in warsaw and it is genocide now.

[The Redneck]

Ack... Almost finished and the #$!^@#$%@# browser pulls this 'illegal operation' crap, and the post is gone... lemme try again...

you want a captalist country where the people are starving? i'll give you a few since africa lacks socialist or communist governments.

nigeria, ethiopa, uganda, tanzania, sudan, malawi, vietnam (socialists but still capatlist like scotland) cambodia.

Malawi--currently removing price controls and privatizing their state-run enterprises. Price controls and state-run enterprises are not capitalism.
Nigeria--hobbled by corruption and poor macroeconomic management. A government-managed economy is, again, not capitalism.
Tanzania--currently dismantling socialist economic controls. Its industry is also suffering from years of mismanagement of the state-run electric company.
Uganda--suffering from erratic economic management.
Vietnam--the government runs most industries, including banking. That's not capitalism. Were you really trying to tell us that Vietnam is capitalist? Tell it to the Boat People.
Ethiopia--currently trying to cut down on government regulation and privatize state-run enterprises.
,a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Sudan">Sudan--It's government is currently spending every dime it gets trying to eradicate a sizable percentage of its population.

In other words, try again.

the problem with cfc's is.......... volcanoes happen on and off.

And the ones that are still erupting? You don't need a 'letup' when you deal hundreds of times what humanity can produce in one blow.

and actually..... the africa commission isn's made of african countries and so it wants heehaw money from the west.

"There are 17 members of the Commission. All are working in an independent capacity. Most of the Commissioners are from Africa and all are active and influential in the differing spheres of work and expertise." People from ,a href="http://www.commissionforafrica.org/english/about/story.html">African countries. Unless you meant a different Africa Comission?

and i have provided you with links everytime you have asked for them.

First--when?
Second--I'm asking for one now.

i think the deaths of millions does not need alink unless you want to tell me hat you belive they all live happily in nice big houses and have plenty to eat and a pool.

Because if they don't it must be America's fault. You make extravagant claims, accuse people of genocide, and don't believe you need to provide any evidence?

it was genocide in warsaw and it is genocide now.

Would you please give it a rest on the Nazi references. Nobody's buying it.