Wrongly Accused?

[Sasquatch]

To say "I've taken classes, so I know more than you" is ridiculous. Stop trying to patronize.

Obviously Martyr believes strongly in the Bible, and obviously it's not something he just picked up one day and said "hey, this looks good". We all have a right to disagree with each other here, and if you disagree with his Christian stance, then suit yourself, but don't be angry that he disagrees with a non-Christian stance.

Martyr, good point about tolerance. If God could tolerate sin, then sinners would be let into Heaven without being forgiven, and thus Christianity would have no base beliefs.

[Cloud No.9]

actually the bible opnely preaches tolerance of sinners in the new testament. jesus saving mary magdalane (a whore) from death instead of watching her stoned to death was tolerance and mercy. jesus welcomes the man who shared calrvarly with him into heaven. there are many many instances of jesus tolerating, forgiving and showing mercy to sinners. the problem with christianty is that it concentrates far too much on the old testament which in my mind condones violence and revenge. that isn't what christianty should be about.

i believe that the discussion that consisted mainly of me, sasquathc, big d, t-man and lionx needs to be moved into a different post as it has become very different from what was originally started in this thread. the thread will be listed under the title "a crossover thread" i hope this pleases everyone as it stops two different conversations happening in the same thread.

[Sasquatch]

No, there's still a big difference. Jesus forgave those people, he didn't tolerate their sin. Jesus never said "You are forgiven, my son, but there is no need to change your ways." So no, "tolerance" and forgiveness/mercy are VERY different.

And I went to the "a crossover thread", but it looked as if the primary topic was the legitimacy of the use of torture methods, what constitutes torture, and the ol' "the end justifies the means".

[The Redneck]

In fact, the majority of Muslims and their clerics are as opposed to extremist acts as anyone else.

According to a Gallup poll taken in England in early 2002, 80% of British muslims would night fight for their country. 49% would fight for Osama bin Laden.

According to another, 77% of muslims saw the military action in Afghanistan as morally unjustified--but 67% saw the Sept. 11 attacks as morally justified.

In another (although admittedly biased), 91% of muslims said they "supported and rejoiced" the Sept. 11 attacks. 89% said that we deserve it because we are an infidel country that supports Jews. 94% said that the attackers died as shaheed (martyrs), and 88% said they supported more attacks.

According to muslim propoganda source Al-Jazeera, 54% of their readers believed that Hezbollah should not be considered a terrorist organization.

According to MuslimUnited, 82% of their members believed that the Taliban should not hand over Mullar Omar.

And according to another poll; 58% of Indonesians, 55% of Jordanians, 49% of Moroccans, 45% of Pakistanis, and 71% of palestinians believed that Bin Laden could be trusted to "do the right thing regarding world affairs." Arafat polled slightly worse, with 68% in Indonesia, 43% in Morocco, 42% in Pakistan, 69% in palestine, and 32% in Turkey.

Likewise, 93% of Moroccans, 91% of Jordanians, 82% of Lebanese, Turkish, and Indonesians, 81% of Pakistanis, and 74% of palestinians were disappointed that Sodom's forces didn't put up more of a fight.

While the 20-30% of more than a billion who don't support terrorism are still a whole lot of people, and the smaller percentage who are actually opposed to it still represent millions, the majority of muslims and their clerics are not opposed to "extremist" (i.e., terrorist) acts.

[The Captain]

Those are interesting results, though I do think it's important to keep in mind that polls aren't always the most reliable source of information since they can be made to prove or disprove anything if done in a given circumstance. I'm not disregarding your sources, but I've always been wary of what polls say with regard to issues, yet unfortunately, they seem to have become a focal point on society.

Take care all.

[Cloud No.9]

the poll results all depends on where they were taken from. if they were middle class america then it would be suprising, the slums of iran or palestine would be a different matter. and instead of thinking that this is obviously the fault of the religion why not ask why all these people feel this way?

al-jazzera is now a propaganda organisation but a very large, powerful, resepcted and highly regarded news association same as richard murdoch, cnn and the bbc.

[Shattered Oasis]

Hi, I'm a new member. Here's my opinion on the whole religion thing. I'm a Christian, but I believe that the God that I worship and the God(s) that other religions worship are essentially the same. We just have different interpretations of who the "Higher Spirit" is. In Christianity this is God, in Islam this is Allah, in Wicca this is the Goddess, etc. I don't think any religion is really "wrong" or "right." The Ancient Egyptians had many Gods: Ra, Isis, Anubis... These were just their ways of forming the Divine into something they could understand. If it meant taking different "personalities" of God and making them each a separate deity, then really it is the same as worshiping one God. Personally I think humans can never really understand the Higher Power, and so any means we have of worshiping Him/Her/It/Them is equally correct. I don't think you can blame religions for certain problems, but the people within them that use religion as an excuse for their actions. I dislike it whenever people think their religion is "The Best" or "Anyone who's not my religion will go to Hell." I think we should accept people for who they are, not what they believe. Each person is entitled to their own right beliefs of the divinity. Well, that's just my opinion. It's okay if no one agrees.

[Big D]

Shattered Oasis, welcome to the forum
I highly approve of your views, and the tolerance and maturity they demonstrate.

I'm not Christian, but I believe in a similar way to you - that all religion is simply different interpretation and representation of the higher powers in this world.

[Shattered Oasis]

Shattered Oasis, welcome to the forum
I highly approve of your views, and the tolerance and maturity they demonstrate.

I'm not Christian, but I believe in a similar way to you - that all religion is simply different interpretation and representation of the higher powers in this world.

Thank you for the compliments, Big D. For most of my childhood I was raised in a very devout Christian household. But lately I've started questioning my views, and trying to see from other peoples' perspectives. I find looking into other religions interesting, to see how they relate to my own beliefs. I'm not sure if I'll remain a Christian once I become an adult. I think I've started looking more critically at the religion I've been raised in. More than anything I'm Agnostic. I don't believe we'll ever really know whether there is God or Heaven until we die. And even then it might not fully be explained.

[Sasquatch]

the poll results all depends on where they were taken from. if they were middle class america then it would be suprising, the slums of iran or palestine would be a different matter. and instead of thinking that this is obviously the fault of the religion why not ask why all these people feel this way?

al-jazzera is now a propaganda organisation but a very large, powerful, resepcted and highly regarded news association same as richard murdoch, cnn and the bbc.

Why don't you go through the links that were posted, and see where the polls came from? That's a novel idea, ain't it.

Al-Jezeera IS a propaganda organization. It also reports "news". It's like the Daily Show, but less accurate. It's like CBS, but more slanted. It's like Most Extreme Elimination Challenge, but less funny.

[T-MaN]

What if there were no such thing as a high power? Or a GoD as most people would state it. I'm guessing people would just go do crazy stuff seeing how there is no rule to stop you except for the police and army and the others...
Anyways, some people don't seem to accept the fact that they are not fighting for what is best for their religion or for their people. As others have said, everyone just use it as a cover for their own personal ambitions. They say that they are fighting for their own religion because they want the approval and support of the people of their own culture. If they didn't take the name of their god in doing something, their religion would never accept their purpose.

[Cloud No.9]

sasquatch just because it doesn't meet your extreme right wing views does not mean it is propaganda. i watch it almost daily and is very impartial when it comes down to it. yes it has certain political leanings as does every newspaper and news programme. but it is as close to impartial as an organisation if it's type can be.

it's nice to see people here coming to a concensus on the blame of religion. it's been a long time since a discussion has came to a point where people can say they agree on a point. That truly is nice to see that most people here don't think religion (specifically islam) is the cause of the evils of the world. A true joy.

[Sasquatch]

You watch Al-Jezeera every day? That explains it.

I'm sure most of us know how biased Al-Jezeera really is. The network that rejoices at the insurgency against Coalition Forces, proudly broadcasts videos of innocent men being decapitated, and mourns the loss of the "martyrs" that were killed fighting against "western imperialism".

I would also say that I am nowhere near "extreme right wing", and simply because a "news source" isn't slanted to the right does not make it propaganda in my book. Hell, CNN is slanted to the left, as is CBS, and I wouldn't say either of those are "propaganda" most of the time. As for "as close to impartial as an organization of its type can be"...I might have to agree with you on that one. As an organization of Muslim extremists, state-run, broadcast to a primarily Islamic population, I would say they're as impartial as they can be.

And sure, I'll go along and say that Islam isn't evil. I've already said that. But some Muslims, and Muslim clergy, (in fact a majority of them in the Middle East) support extremism, terrorism, and insurgency.

[Cloud No.9]

my choice of viewing explains what exactly?

the decpatations were not displayed proudly they were displayed exactly as they were shown in every other broadcast as something horrible and should not have been commited because in islam such things are wrong and evil. it is not ran by muslim extremists either have you ever even watched it consistently before?

and why can't it mourn martyrs anyway if it did? did your news not rejoice when you won the iraq war? when sadamme was captured? show sorrow for dead soldiers? oh yeah you're fighting for the good guys right.......

and if a majority of the middle east hates you ask yourself why that is so.

[The Redneck]

Why does Islam hate us? Well, according to the muslims who hate us (such as, for example, Al-Zaqawi, quoted here), "We have declared a fierce war on this evil principle of democracy and those who follow this wrong ideology... Democracy is also based on the right to choose your religion," he said, and that is "against the rule of God."

Now, otherwise--yes, we are fighting for the good guys. The ones without the Rape-Rooms, who don't burn women alive, cut off ears, tie women to tanks so our opponents can't use anti-tank weaponry on them, don't feed people feet-first into industrial plastic-shredders, and don't use every cent the nation can scrounge up to build more than 50 palaces with solid gold toilets and then blame our opponents for making the people starve. This, I believe, is what Sasquatch meant when he said, "You watch Al-Jezeera every day? That explains it."