The Minuteman Project

[Cuchulainn]

Last time I looked this world was round people. It's the animal instinct in the human that makes him tribalistic & territorial. It's also the animal instinct that makes him racist or xenophobic, the sooner we evolve enough to realise we are all one created by God, whoever that God may be, the better. I realise how comfortable it is for people in first world countries to frown upon illegal immigrents who have, basically, nothing but the clothes on their back, seeking a better life in a place that, according to that counties constant advertisments, is richer, but I urge you to sit back & think, what would you do?
It was only a few hundred years ago that the American's European ancestors did exactly the same damn thing. It wasn't too long ago that the British created an empire spanning the globe, not by sneeking in a country through a back door, but by storming it & killing all who opposed. Same goes for every other country. If you are opposed to immigration in America, you may pack up your suitcase & sail to Europe. If you're opposed to Immigration in Britain, you may first apologise, individually, to every country you have raped & pillaged THEN sail for Germany or Denmark.
Fact is, they are no different than us & our ancestors, it's just different times, different means & different reasons.

[CloudSquallandZidane]

Well then i guess lets just open our borders, and let everyone across who wants in, and to make it like it was 400 years ago lets not document anyone either. I mean Al-Qaida still wants to destroy the U.S., but... hey we want to be fair...

Now did that sound stupid to anyone else? Because it did to me. We cant let anyone and everyone come here. Thats why we have a screening process, thats why it takes time for people to enter legally. Yeh no borders would be great, its just not possible to do that and still be safe, and allowing this illegal immagration to happen, is a slap in the face to every1 who came here legally, including ur ancestors.

The times have changes and so has the country, now its ruled, now it has laws, and now its has enemies.

[DMKA]

Now did that sound stupid to anyone else?

Nope.

[Cuchulainn]

Firstly, America isn't alone in blame, infact, it's a country I admire greatly, my wife is infact American. Secondly, terrorism isn't a border or immigration issue at all, they may overlap at parts but they are seperate arguments, we have terrorism here in Belfast, by our own citizens. Lastly, I believe it is foreign policies, territorialism & xenophobia that has LED to terrorist acts against countries & peoples. If first world countries spent less on defence & united you could wipe out world poverty three times over, do you realise how powerful that is?

[Strider]

Cap'n, to answer your question, I read that these people are under strict orders not to take matters into their own hands. Therefore, the shotguns are probably there as an intimidation factor.

[Sasquatch]

"Fact is, they are no different than us & our ancestors, it's just different times, different means & different reasons."

So...they're not different from us, except for everything different? ... What? There's a difference between expansion and what's happening now. If they're seeking a better life, sure, great, we're all for it, just DO IT LEGALLY. As has been said, illegal immigration is an insult to those immigrants who came in legally and now are upstanding citizens.

"Secondly, terrorism isn't a border or immigration issue at all, they may overlap at parts but they are seperate arguments, we have terrorism here in Belfast, by our own citizens"

America isn't worried about its own citizens becoming terrorists. It has happened, somewhat, but the threat now is from outside the country. And those people would have to get in, through...where? Our borders! Amazing ain't it? They are seperate arguments, of course, as everything else, but they coincide.

Here's an idea. Why don't we just make one big global government? Topple every country's government, make a one-world currency, make common laws, codes, etc. for every part of the earth, and we'd all be one big happy family and live happily ever after? That way there'd be no need for immigration, no borders, nothing to seperate everybody. And hey, wouldn't you know it, there wouldn't be an America to protect from the millions of people willing to give their life to take the life of one or more of us. Good plan, huh? (I'm not going to ask if everybody else thinks that's stupid, because there are some people that just ain't at that level.)

By the way. I was born in America. Haven't tried to move out. Didn't have to move in. I didn't come here, kill everybody who stood in my way, and build a house. You know what? Neither did my parents. And, wouldn't you know it, their parents didn't do that either! You see a pattern here? Nobody's trying to conquer a new land, they're trying to enter a place that's already become prosperous through the hard work of its people.

And three hundred years ago, there was no such thing as "legal/illegal immigration".

I will say again. I support legal immigration. If you're using the argument that "oh, these people are just trying to make a better life for themselves", then why don't they do it legally?

[Cuchulainn]

So...they're not different from us, except for everything different? ... What? There's a difference between expansion and what's happening now. If they're seeking a better life, sure, great, we're all for it, just DO IT LEGALLY. As has been said, illegal immigration is an insult to those immigrants who came in legally and now are upstanding citizens.

No, they are no different. From the Human origins of Africa, moving on to the Middle East then seperating to the Caucasus & Far East, we've been doing it since we could scratch our own arse. The actual differences were pointed out by myself, but actual immigration, we are the same. With regards to the legality of the immigration, while I very much douvbt there was international law on the matter, I very much doubt your Founders were worried about that as they landed on the East Coast. Most if your country's leaders are descendants of these very people & indeed, upstanding citizens like you say.

America isn't worried about its own citizens becoming terrorists. It has happened, somewhat, but the threat now is from outside the country. And those people would have to get in, through...where? Our borders! Amazing ain't it? They are seperate arguments, of course, as everything else, but they coincide.

Eh, again you are mixing Terrorism & Immigration, the two overlap at times, true, but they are not the same thing. In anycase, I believe America's biggest problems stem from it's own citizens, not from outside elements. When the house of cards that is the US Economy crumbles, and it will, I think you will bear the fruits of your lax gun laws.

Here's an idea. Why don't we just make one big global government? Topple every country's government, make a one-world currency, make common laws, codes, etc. for every part of the earth, and we'd all be one big happy family and live happily ever after? That way there'd be no need for immigration, no borders, nothing to seperate everybody. And hey, wouldn't you know it, there wouldn't be an America to protect from the millions of people willing to give their life to take the life of one or more of us. Good plan, huh? (I'm not going to ask if everybody else thinks that's stupid, because there are some people that just ain't at that level.)
.

Sounds good to me, as long as it is democratically run & every nation has a say, uniting wouldn't be a bad idea. The most intelligent yankie-doodle-dandy-less thing you've said so far. As for America 'protecting' the world, first of all we wouldn't need protecting from the world if you hadn't of armed it first. Secondly, if we did unite as a people there would be no one to 'protect' us from. In saying that, I do recognise the good America has done, and I am thankful, it has done a LOT of good around the world, it's finding the right balance that's the problem.

By the way. I was born in America. Haven't tried to move out. Didn't have to move in. I didn't come here, kill everybody who stood in my way, and build a house. You know what? Neither did my parents. And, wouldn't you know it, their parents didn't do that either! You see a pattern here? Nobody's trying to conquer a new land, they're trying to enter a place that's already become prosperous through the hard work of its people.

GO YOU! I never once said you or your parents did, so all that's left to say is well done! Keep it up!

And three hundred years ago, there was no such thing as "legal/illegal immigration".

300 hundred years ago we were burning witches at the stake & lynching anybody with a slightly different skin tone, are you trying to tell me that because there wasn't any law against it, then it's fine? The Nazi's woulda LOVED you. You don't need Governmental or International Law to tell you what's right & wrong.

I will say again. I support legal immigration. If you're using the argument that "oh, these people are just trying to make a better life for themselves", then why don't they do it legally?

I bet there are thousands of Mexicans kicking themselves saying 'Why didn't i think of that'

[Lionx]

Not much to say besides the part about shotguns...who wouldnt put things in their own hands and "accidentally" shoot them? -_- I do not think they should weild shotguns at the very least intimidation or not. Its just too risky a thing.

[Sasquatch]

So our ancestors immigrated. Different reasons, different places, different means, different times...but they're just the same, right? So a soldier who fights in war is just the same as a gangster who mugs and kills some guy on the street, because they both shoot people, right?

Terrorism and Immigration overlap quite a bit, quite often. Without border control, the War on Terror abroad would serve no purpose, because it would be extremely easy for a terrorist to enter the United States and attack from inside. And even if there was no War on Terror, Customs, INS, and Border Patrol are the only things standing in the way of some haji smuggling a dirty bomb into the country. Border issues are more important than you make them out to be.

America has "lax gun laws" because we have something called the Second Amendment. That, by the way, states that citizens have "the right to bare arms"--meaning, the right to have guns--and the government isn't supposed to infringe on those rights, any more than they already have. That's the beauty of something America calls freedom. We don't have "lax" gun laws, we have lax enforcement--the people that have their guns legally don't commit crimes with those guns. Not to mention, the Second Amendment specifically states that gun rights are to ensure the existence of a militia, should a revolution be necessary. Our gun rights ensure our own protection and freedom...I don't know if freedom is important to you, but it is in America. But away from firearms issues, that's another topic entirely.

If you didn't notice, the "one world government" comment was entirely sarcastic. That's right, why don't we make a one-world government and destroy everybody's freedom, and put everybody in poverty, great idea huh? And you make it seem like if we "united", then nobody would ever want more money, power, etc. than they work for, and there would be nobody to have to be protected against. Right. You go ahead and keep thinking that.

You blame Americans and English for the "rape and pillage" of other regions (which of course is a crock), but my point was that many generations of my family were born in America, so I wasn't one of those eeeeeeevil settlers that "raped and pillaged" the country.

And 300 years ago there weren't many immigration laws because immigration wasn't an issue. Back then, it didn't matter where you came from, you could find a secluded piece of land somewhere and make a living. And who said that burning witches and lynching colored people was in any way acceptable? Nobody mentioned that, I was talking about immigration. Big difference. But, back then, that kind of thing was considered acceptable. Not saying it was right, but it was legally acceptable. Now, immigration--whether you think it's right or wrong--has laws placed on it, and there is legal and illegal immigration. What happened 300 years ago doesn't matter, because the world is very different now. (By the way, I didn't burn any witches or lynch any black people, either.)

Most illegal immigrants don't even try to apply for legal immigration until they're already in America.

[Cuchulainn]

So our ancestors immigrated. Different reasons, different places, different means, different times...but they're just the same, right? So a soldier who fights in war is just the same as a gangster who mugs and kills some guy on the street, because they both shoot people, right?

They aren't even related topics, you're equating violent crime with immigration? Your anology off topic, I see what you were trying to say but that's like saying murder is ok because everyone dies anyway. Sometimes war is inevitable, WWII par example. This recent war was COMPLETELY avoidable on every front. As to 'is a soldier the same as a mugger' it would very much depend on the circumstances that led to his mobilisation, a soldier in the German Army invading Poland & a mugger COULD be equated. A soldier fighting to secure foreign oil....I'll leave that up to your better judgement. I believe both parties can be called victims of their government's policies. I wish for the safe return of every US & British servicman.

Terrorism and Immigration overlap quite a bit, quite often. Without border control, the War on Terror abroad would serve no purpose, because it would be extremely easy for a terrorist to enter the United States and attack from inside. And even if there was no War on Terror, Customs, INS, and Border Patrol are the only things standing in the way of some haji smuggling a dirty bomb into the country. Border issues are more important than you make them out to be.

Terrorism overlaps with amost every aspect of life, why are you stopping at Immigration, clamp down Trade Unions, the right to free speech & create Marshal Law while you're at it. Terrorism is overlapping a hell of a lot more with US foreign policy than Immigration right now, that should be your main concern.

America has "lax gun laws" because we have something called the Second Amendment. That, by the way, states that citizens have "the right to bare arms"--meaning, the right to have guns--and the government isn't supposed to infringe on those rights, any more than they already have. That's the beauty of something America calls freedom. We don't have "lax" gun laws, we have lax enforcement--the people that have their guns legally don't commit crimes with those guns. Not to mention, the Second Amendment specifically states that gun rights are to ensure the existence of a militia, should a revolution be necessary. Our gun rights ensure our own protection and freedom...I don't know if freedom is important to you, but it is in America. But away from firearms issues, that's another topic entirely.

Why on EARTH do middle americans & rednecks feel the need to clutch their 9mm in order to feel 'free'? That, to me, is the single most idiotic argument in the whole Gun Law discussion. I'm sorry, I just don't get it. I was still on the island when that boat left.

You blame Americans and English for the "rape and pillage" of other regions (which of course is a crock), but my point was that many generations of my family were born in America, so I wasn't one of those eeeeeeevil settlers that "raped and pillaged" the country.

I never said they were, and it wasn't JUST Americans & English, I used those to nations as an example merely because they are the two main protagonists in this recent War. I apologise if it came across that I was stating your family were to blame, that was not my intention.

And 300 years ago there weren't many immigration laws because immigration wasn't an issue. Back then, it didn't matter where you came from, you could find a secluded piece of land somewhere and make a living. And who said that burning witches and lynching colored people was in any way acceptable? Nobody mentioned that, I was talking about immigration. Big difference. But, back then, that kind of thing was considered acceptable. Not saying it was right, but it was legally acceptable. Now, immigration--whether you think it's right or wrong--has laws placed on it, and there is legal and illegal immigration. What happened 300 years ago doesn't matter, because the world is very different now. (By the way, I didn't burn any witches or lynch any black people, either.)

LOL firstly, 'colored' people? What are you? Semity Sam? Dear God. Secondly, I drew the comparison from your very own statement, if my statement was off topic, maybe you missed the anology.

Lastly I don't want this to go round in circles, as it seems to be doing, or lead to a slanging match. We both have very different views on life & we both have shared them. Lets leave it at that.

I wish you luck in whatever you do.

[DMKA]

Here's an idea. Why don't we just make one big global government? Topple every country's government, make a one-world currency, make common laws, codes, etc. for every part of the earth, and we'd all be one big happy family and live happily ever after? That way there'd be no need for immigration, no borders, nothing to seperate everybody. And hey, wouldn't you know it, there wouldn't be an America to protect from the millions of people willing to give their life to take the life of one or more of us. Good plan, huh?

Precisely.

[Lionx]

For one government, to be totalitarian, to RULE THEM ALL MUHAHAHA!!..>_>

I dont understand the "freedome" thing for guns, but to me, if everyone had a gun, people wont break into houses that much. Guns statistically saved more lives than it actually had used on a crime. I am glad to have a gun in my house so no home invasion will occur without that guy being disabled because i dont want to die and/or lose my things because of that.

[DMKA]

Yeah, I think everyone who wants a gun should have one so they can all shoot each other dead. That would save alot of lives.

[Lionx]

Which is why we dont use them but for defense. -_- Not everyone is going to use them responsibly. We could say your kitchen knife can be a weapon that is used to kill your next door neighbor. Right..

A gun can be used for many things, why else do you think some storekeepers keep guns in their stores? To shoot their customers? No, to protect themselves from those that do misuse them. Should no one kill another with a gun, then there would be no use for them.

[DMKA]

I just think it's a tad hypocritical for people to oppose murder but then say "OMFG DON'T TAKE AWAY MY GUNZ!!!11"

I'm in complete support of people who want guns owning guns, and I'm in complete support of them shooting each other dead. That's not misuse...that's what guns are for, right?