The Minuteman Project

[Lionx]

Guns are whatever that you make of them. You can use it as an assitance in a robbery of a bank, or you can use it as a defensive piece of metal. The intent of the item used is what is being discussed, you dont have to shoot the person dead, at the very least stop him from casuing more harm.

Murder has premeditated malice in it, when you are defending yourself you dont think ahead. You dont know theres going to be someone breaking in your house else you already call the police. Its not hypocritical at all, its just looking out for yourself when someone that does threaten you, so you arent using sticks and stones against a gun.

In that same analogy, why have an army when we are for peace?

[DMKA]

In that same analogy, why have an army when we are for peace?

We're for peace? Who is? When the hell did that happen? o__O

[fire_of_avalon]

Dimmkah, lighten up on the sarcasm, please.

I just think it's ridiculous that people are breaking laws and becoming vigilantes when they could be organizing protests, letter writing, and campaigning to make changes in immigration policy, and make changes in the way America deals with Mexico politically and economically to raise the Mexican standard of living.

I see all this effort being put forth very selfishly. If effort were put forth for more selfless things, everyone would benefit. Mexico would have a stable economy and Mexican families who are currently starving to death would have food and shelter, and they would stay in Mexico.

A lot of people seem to be saying they want to move to America for personal reasons, but I don't think that's true. They want to move to America for survival reasons. Make it easier to survive as a poor Mexican family, stop the exploitation of the poor of an entire nation, and focus on how WE can make our economy better instead of letting our businesses go to Mexico and destroy a way of life.

Why not try to do something useful like that, instead of sitting on some imaginary line waving a weapon at people who just want a chance to live?

[Cuchulainn]

A gun is made & designed to kill and mame. There is no use arguing over 'other uses'. It's a murder weapon.
With the exception of the intelligent post above mine, this thread seems to have gone the way i predicted. Ah well...

[ShunNakamura]

A gun is made & designed to kill and mame. There is no use arguing over 'other uses'. It's a murder weapon.
With the exception of the intelligent post above mine, this thread seems to have gone the way i predicted. Ah well...

There for a knives should be outlawed... rocks out lawed, bows outlawed, sticks outlawed.

NO ITEM IS WRONG... Items are not good or evil, it is the poeple behind them that are responsible.. it isn't gun laws that should be the issue, rather the people behind the acts. People kill, NOT guns. A gun is a tool.. and can be used for more then murder... it can be used to hunt, to protect, to kill, and many other things depending on the situation and the type of gun.

Banning something just cause it can kill would have us all tied up in straight-jackets... afterall we CAN kill people with our barehands, or feet.

Now as for One World, One Nation.. it is a nice dream.. but first our community must globalize more then it currently is, people must be better educated and more open minded, etc.. America itself is almost too large of a country for democracy to work. Actually, technically, America isn't a true democracy anyways.

The minute-man project is at least a good way for them to show the government that things will be taken care of, even if the government is too lazy to do it themselves... Actually now that I think about the American government is extremely inactive in enforcing what it should.

To allow all immigrants in without any screening, would collapse the American Economy... Helping people is good and all, but if you destroy yourself while trying to help them, you don't really help anyone.

[DMKA]

There for a knives should be outlawed... rocks out lawed, bows outlawed, sticks outlawed.

You obviously didn't comprehend the last post...read it again...nice and slowly.

Knives are used to cut things, including food prepping.

Rocks are merely pieces of the earth.

Bows...go ahead and outlaw them.

Sticks are like rocks, and also hold things up, are used for building, walking, ect.

A gun is for one and only one thing: killing. If you aren't intending to kill anyone, why would you want it? "OMFG SLEFZ DIFENSES!111!~!ONE!"...yeah, so everyone wants a gun to "defend" themselves, which is why so many people have them...and how much "defending" do you hear of with guns as oppossed to flat out murder.To most of the people I talk to who support guns, they consider shooting someone for stumbling onto their lawn "defense".

But I've already said it, and I'll say it again: I support people who want guns having them, and I support them shooting each other dead. I'm not telling you not to have them.

[Cuchulainn]

You quote me but fail to read what you have quoted....

Unless it is a combat knife or a knife designed for that purpose, they ARE NOT designed for murder. Read what I say before you quote it & make yourself look ignorant. Guns are a weapon solely designed for killing & maming, unlike a rock, or a knife or indeed a candlestick-holder, which are designed for other reasons completely, if someone choses to use these as a weapon, he will do a hell of a lot less harm in a school than if he was armed with a rapid-fire semi. Living where I live I know first hand what it is to lose someone close at the hands of a gun, you can't tell me that gunman would have done the same damage with a rock, that's insane.
The death-toll of thousands, if not millions would have been seriously reduced if we were still throwing rocks & knifing eachother, evidence of this is told in history. A gun, an instrument of murder, and a makeshift instrument are not equivical in the slightest.

And as regards to the US Economy, I shouldn't worry, you don't need immagrents to help that collapse, all you need is another 25 years & your present foreign policy.

Lastly, you seem a very intelligent individual, tell me why it's only a dream? Because we're told so? Because we are still, as humans, in our infancy & rely on Governments to make our decisions? It really doesn't HAVE to be a dream, wiping out world poverty is completely do-able if we came together & worked on it. You're right though...it won't happen, not in this lifetime, we're still too busy pissin on tree-bark to realise it's possible yet.

[Lionx]

How many good things do we hear in the news? Not as much as bad because its not worth talking about. -_-

Most people you talk to DMKA, but really you need to know some better people. I do use them for defense and if someone is breaking in the house, i dont want to be in the news for next person murdered. Why do we have a baton and learn it in martial arts? Why do we even have martial arts? To beat people up? No to defend.

Are batons or staffs in martial art schools considered just so they can beat people up? Yeah but are they there just for attacking others? No they can also be used to defend yourself. It might sound cruel but would that have happened to your loved one if they also had a gun to defend themself with? Seriously muder must have that intent, i do not have that intent and i have a gun to defend myself with. Am i a murder suspect now? Does that automatically make me going to walk up to a clerk and shoot him in the face? No..

If there werent guns...well that doesnt matter, the thing is we DO have them, its like Knights vs Riflemen. You either keep up or advance....or you fall behind and get pounded. WWII already should be enough for everyone to see this.

Anyway wth we went way off topic..-.-

I support em as long as they arent actually using those shotguns...

[ShunNakamura]

Now I will admit I did purposely twist your quote, but that is because not all guns are ment to kill. You have tranquilizer guns, you have BB guns(ok they kill small game... but they don't really hurt people much).

Guns in self defense don't have to kill, if I remember right a good shot from a gun to a mans shoulder can sometimes lay them out flat, and or cause enough damage to render their "gun" arm useless... of course I only have a few selelcted readings that allude to the fact that a gun can do that, and I do imagine it is the bigger guns.

Point is though, outlawing guns will only take guns away from law abiding citizens. The ones who break the law will still get them.. and then, well your sticks and stones won't help much against my gun... semi-auto or not. It *MAY* lower the violent crimes. But I imagine they would just find other ways to do thier crimes.

As I said it is the person behind the object, not the object itself, and while I am certian all you understand that... I just like to repeat it to line my thoughts up.

Guns have been invented, we can't deinvent them, even if all guns were destroyed the knowledge neccesary to make one is know easy to obtain.. and even a badly built gun can cause damage. It wouldn't do much good to take it away, and you would be depriving one form of self-defense, Heaven forbid that I ever have to actually use it.


As for the dream part.. I really meant it in a cynical sense... for some reason I don't see people, in general, coming to enough sense to allow such an action done... but I am VERY cynical on human intelligence, we aren't nearly as smart as we think.

It may be possible in many lifetimes for it too come, but for my lifetime, I am positive it is only a dream.. unless a miracle happens.. and even then it doesn't have the largest chance of surviving.

Now... US foreign policy at this time, is utterly awful. A quote just from tonight from me is "Our president is a dickhead"... it caused alot of laughing, not cause I insulted the president... no one in my area truely likes Bush, they think of him as a lesser evil... but because I don't use that language. This is just so you all know I REALLY dislike Bush... he is an idiot when it comes to dealing with other countries, Clinton was much better in that aspect.. and I didn't even like Clinton's policies all that much.

Yes US foreign policy needs changed, we need to get better, renewable fuel sorces, and much, much more. This in my area is becoming more and more widely known.. we are starting to look more for those qualities then others in our canidates. Of course my area is very small, I just hope others are learning.

Poverty is also hard to get rid off... in a capitalistic society it is very difficult to get rid of, If the rich would give up more money to the impovershered we coudl get rid of it, but they like thier money. Even Filanthropists hang onto much of thier money.(BTW i know they help, but they coudl do more.)... so this is another thing I don't think will happen in my lifetime.

I appoligize for bad wording.. .most of my long term comments were meant to be "in my lifetime" comments. That was my bad. And I do apologize for twisting you quote so.. but many people against guns think it would stop all violent crime.... but you can commit violent crime with anything even if it is slightly less effecient. So I hold to the believe that while it may stop some violent crime, it will only hurt overall, since criminals will have guns and the common people won't. Perhaps they should research better tranqs.. and then have tranqs allowed but bullet guns disallowed. That would still allow some ability to defend onself.

[Sasquatch]

(EDIT: Hahahaha. Remember, we're not calling people names in this thread. Don't want the forum gestapo to be upset, now do we? Hold your tongue! -Adam )

These people aren't breaking laws, and these people aren't becoming vigilantes. It's already been stated that they don't apprehend the illegals themselves. And if there was an incident, they'd catch hell from many different organizations, and both governments.

As for the one-world government, it's a pipe dream. If all people were saints and angels, then it would work perfectly. Even if everybody was happy being at just the same level as everybody else, it'd work fine. If everybody was comfortable with socialism, then it'd be alright. But, if some people wanted to actually be different, maybe make a little more money, have a little nicer house, be in a career field that they actually CHOSE to go into...(I think some people here would say that's "greedy" or "selfish"...some people would refer to it as "liberty")...then, there'd be problems. Then you have people that really are greedy, really are selfish, and there would be quite a few opportunities for those people to rise to power, with no militaries protecting anything.

[fire_of_avalon]

This thread is going off topic quickly. If you want to talk about gun control, make a different thread for it. And again, please be respectful towards one another in your posts, even if you disagree.

[The Redneck]

First of all....

Why on EARTH do middle americans & rednecks feel the need to clutch their 9mm in order to feel 'free'?

Maybe it's that whole "ability to defend ourselves" thing. Not all of us can afford body guards, after all, and if you think your government can defend you, then a) you need to stay away from the crack-mart, because they're obviously incapable of it, b) the vast majority of people murdered in the 20th century were killed by their own government, and c) (correlating with B), what do you do when it's the government coming to harm you? (Never happens? Tell that to Randy Weaver.) Or when the government simply doesn't care? (which is why in the early days of the 20th century some of the NRA's first chapters were among black folks; the government didn't care one way or the other if they were getting lynched, so they needed the means to protect themselves.) Besides that, we don't like 9-mms--they're city-guns. Gimme a .44 or a shotgun any day.

And on to the topic:

I know several immigrants. One of them I worked with had to spend a year seperated from her family before they could get the legalities taken care of so they could move here legally. It's not unusual to suffer such hardship, and not unusual to consider it worth the effort to become a part of the greatest nation in the world.

Every single illegal immigrant is a slap in the face to this woman, and to every person born in a different country who went through the time, the trouble, and sometimes the emotional pain to become an American citizen.

Just why are we supposed to respect someone whose very first act on American soil was to break the law?

Moreover, Sasquatch is entirely correct. While there are indeed terrorists who were born and raised right here in the USA, the vast majority (including all of the Sept. 11 hijackers) come in from somewhere else. To say that policing our borders is not a necessary part of protecting us from terrorists simply flies in the face of reality.

The Minuteman project is an excellent idea. I hope the ACLU doesn't manage to intimidate them from their cause (they're already filing lawsuits), and that it not only continues but spreads to other states. I also hope that we start cutting aid to Mexico until they stop encouraging and aiding their citizens to come and commit crimes in America.

[DMKA]

Don't flame. -- foa

[The Redneck]

:D Could you at least have let me see what he said first?

[nik0tine]

stop encouraging and aiding their citizens to come and commit crimes in America.

You will most likely find that the amount of crimes commited by illegal immigrants is proportional to the amount of crimes commited by Americans. (Aside from the one crime they commit by default - immigrating illegally. [Which, by the way, harms no one])