a crossover thread.

[Cloud No.9]

sasquacth if i was to put your balls in a vice and squeeze them until you confessed to being a terrorist would you a. let me castrate you in this manner or b. admit it and be free from that pain. i may be a coward but i know what one i would choose. here we see a flaw in why torture seems to fail. same if i was to electrocute and beat you.

america also exports torture to countries where less moral things than this "discomfort" of yours goes on. this discomfort you talk about was actually tested on a group of varied individuals for 3 days for a programme on channel 4 to see if it worked. 50% "confessed" or gave up because it was too much. it doesn't take much of this to make a man break down.

sasquatch i will answer your question again. i would rather a human being was not subject to some of the most immoral and degrading treatment in any circumstances for whatever matter.

[Sasquatch]

That's right, because American prisons have ball-vice tables for just that purpose. Well, that, and cracking walnuts.

America exports torture? How do you do that? Would that fit in a railroad container, or would it have to go into a tanker? And who would need that as an import?

America lets other countries handle some interrogations, because we: A. don't want to bother with them; or B. don't think we could get the information we need with our tactics.

If I were to be tortured, it wouldn't be like "tell us you're a terrorist or we'll do something bad", it would be "We know you're involved, tell us what's going on or we'll do something bad". If I knew what was going on, I would face as much as I could and then most likely end up telling what was going on. If I did lie, they could just go to the guy in the next room that knows what's going on too, and torture the hell out of him until they get an answer, any answer, then come back to me and say "we know you're lying, now tell us the truth while we torture you some more", and the cycle continues. It ain't like they just find some guy walking down the street and say "Hey, you look like a terrorist, we're gonna torture you until you tell us everything we want to know." (By the way, there's a difference in "wanting to know" and "wanting to hear".)

A group of people volunteered to be put through sleep deprivation and such discomfort for three days? Hell, if I did it, I'd be like "this sucks, I give up." Sorry, I'm that big into science that I'd be put through that for some stupid television study. I highly doubt that too many people would disagree with me on that. No wonder half of 'em quit, it's a surprise half stayed.

You have now said more than once that you value the "rights" of a terrorist not to be tortured than the lives of thousands of civilians. I hope nobody else knows you, or you'd bring shame to them.

[Cloud No.9]

sasquatch you are again missing the point. torture cannot work as it only gains what the interrogator wants to hear.

america exports torture by happily sending prisoners to saudi, egypt, syria to have rather nasty things done to them. isn't that even a tad immoral to you? to send a man to be beaten and tortured?

and america is pulling people off the street because they look like terrorists or because you have habit of offering money for info (a serious problem in afghanistan with the northern alliance) that is how moazzam begg came to have his door kicked in. he was guilty of nothing and there was no evidence against him. bt he was imprisoned, beaten up, tortured, sent to saudi, tortured some more for 3 years. 3 years of his life. gone. for what? he wasn't the first and won't be the last. this is injustice of the highest kind. the brutal degradation of an innocent man for 3 years. if you had heard that story happening in germany 60 years ago you would be appauled. but instead you defend it?

and sasquatch for the last time i'll clarify my position. i will defend everyone's human rights, innocent or guilty, victim or murderer. i beluve everyone is a human being and should be treated as such. i don't just see "my people" as the only people with rights and the rest not worth scraping off the bottom of your shoe.

i don't believe in the torture of a man for any purpose. and i don't belive in the murder of innocents either.

[Tama2]

Sad position. I agree with you in a sense #9. But I feel the few outweigh the many regardless because human life is very valuable. So to save many some person or people will be tortured. I feel bad about it but it saves lives. And cmon Sasquatch, don't be so harse on #9.