a crossover thread.

[Cloud No.9]

this is for the topic that appeared out of the "wrongly accused?" thread.

the statement made that the ends of torture justifies the means is absurd. what end? a confession? we practiced that for hundreds off years. made finding heretics and witches a whole lot easier. stretch them a little, use anal pears. and they would confess. none of this funny trial thing. things were much simpler back then, put them on the rack and out comes a confession. it was amazing how many heretics there were back in those days. thank god we found so many eh? or would it be that torture is absolutely useless. give me a vice and a mans testicles and in a few minutes i could have him claiming he was planning to build a huge magnet to cause the moon to be pulled into the earth. same thing if i depreived man of sleep for a week, put him in stress positions, played white noise through his cell constantly, insulted him day and night, had him urinate himself, hogtied him and use short stick tying. all methods authorized by the american government at the highest level.

islam is not an evil religion if it was so is catholicism for the ira. because terrorist choose to hide behind a certain religion, happen to be off that religion or fighting for that religion does not mean they represent that religion in anyway.

[T-MaN]

Very well said. Since terrorists hide behind religions, instantly everyone who is part of that "certain" religion are labelled as terrorist supporters. Sure there may be those that support them, but they support it through their own personal beliefs and not of the religion. During the 9/11 attack, the news showed that there were muslims who supported it. What they didn't show was that around the world, there were many muslims who prayed for the many souls lost during the attack. It showed that there were Muslims against the terrorist attacks as well. Thus proving that the religion of Islam does not support any sort of terrorism, and it is just a personal belief of the people.The news should've showed this on T.V. but they didn't. As said before, what the media shows us about the world are what influence our ideas.

[Gnostic Yevon]

I think the only legitamate use is to stop a massive immenant attack. Not for a conviction.

What I mean by massive imminatnt attack is a bomb or some other plot that if not stopped will kill several hundred people. You have less than a day to stop it. You'd have to be pretty darn sure that you have the right guy first.

Other than that -- you have time to live by Geneva.

[Sasquatch]

So what is this topic about? The use of torture, or terrorism and Islam?

The IRA doesn't slaughter people simply because they're not Catholic. So, no, the "Catholics are evil too" argument wouldn't work. And nobody said that all Muslims are extremists, or that Islam was evil.

As for "torture", the kinds of interrogation techniques approved by the United States government are nowhere near "torture". What Saddam put people through, what Hitler put people through, that was torture. Real torture. Not discomfort, not humiliation, not inconvenience, not annoyance, but torture. White noise, sleep deprivation, insults, etc. aren't even comparable to torture.

And, seeing as the methods used by the United States and other Coalition Forces are not "torture", and seeing as they work, I have no problem with them. If they were actually beating people, flogging or caning or causing lasting marks, then it would be a different situation, and many more people, including myself, would disapprove of it.

[CloudSquallandZidane]

I think the only legitamate use is to stop a massive immenant attack. Not for a conviction.

Agreed.

[T-MaN]

As for "torture", the kinds of interrogation techniques approved by the United States government are nowhere near "torture". What Saddam put people through, what Hitler put people through, that was torture. Real torture. Not discomfort, not humiliation, not inconvenience, not annoyance, but torture. White noise, sleep deprivation, insults, etc. aren't even comparable to torture.

And, seeing as the methods used by the United States and other Coalition Forces are not "torture", and seeing as they work, I have no problem with them. If they were actually beating people, flogging or caning or causing lasting marks, then it would be a different situation, and many more people, including myself, would disapprove of it.

How do you know that the Coalition forces do not torture people the way you see it? We only can speculate as far as what the media tells us. For all we know, the Coalition forces can be using even worse types of torture than Hitler or Saddam did. Unless you work for the government or you are part of the Coalition forces, you can't really tell what types of tortures they are doing there.

[Gnostic Yevon]

As for "torture", the kinds of interrogation techniques approved by the United States government are nowhere near "torture". What Saddam put people through, what Hitler put people through, that was torture. Real torture. Not discomfort, not humiliation, not inconvenience, not annoyance, but torture. White noise, sleep deprivation, insults, etc. aren't even comparable to torture.

And, seeing as the methods used by the United States and other Coalition Forces are not "torture", and seeing as they work, I have no problem with them. If they were actually beating people, flogging or caning or causing lasting marks, then it would be a different situation, and many more people, including myself, would disapprove of it.

How do you know that the Coalition forces do not torture people the way you see it? We only can speculate as far as what the media tells us. For all we know, the Coalition forces can be using even worse types of torture than Hitler or Saddam did. Unless you work for the government or you are part of the Coalition forces, you can't really tell what types of tortures they are doing there.

People died at Abu Graib. There's a picture of a guy giving the thumbs up over a dead body, and another of the same guy attacking a group of handcuffed Iraqis.

[Cloud No.9]

there has never been at any point in history a time when torture has proved effective in the so called "ticking bomb" scenario. torture has never saved any lives at any time.

and sasquatch toture does not work, all former birtish prisoners in guantanamo bay signed confessions. admitted they had planned to attack the us and would continue to do so, confessed to being a meber of al-qaeda. might have had alot to do with what you don't class as torture. have you been deprived of sleep for a week? 168 hours of white noise? repeated messages and no rest? any idea what's that like. if you are so certain that this in no way causes any kind of pain or punishment on anyone then by all means do it. prove to us that a man can withstand that length of time with these methods of torture. if not then you'll prove me right. on failure to do so before you have those 40 winks i would like you to write a confession saying how you plan to nuke new york to the cia.

there was a documentary here that showed how "mild" torture is used in quantanamo bay, 50% of the contestants walked out and this was only using the disclosed and methods which were legal to put a person through willingly. a tip on the iceberg.

one of the british prisoners in fact has actually suffered serious physical harm in cuba. he had his head fractured by one the guards and now suffers from black outs and fits. i think he'll be getting paid as much as the vietnamese.

the idea that you have to break someone's skull, ribs, wrists or jaw before you can call it torture is the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard. sexual humilation including rape leaves only mental scars but under the usa's illegal self legislation. i could happily squeeze your testicles under my foot until you cried out in extreme pain and the scarring left would be minimal as long as i didn't burst them. i could deprive you of food for a few days at a time, no lasting damage there either, take away hygiene and sanitary requirements, hogtie you for a day, hold you in a short stick position. you wanna do that for 3 years of your life?

also if you are so keen on preventing torture there's korea, chine, sudan, zimbabwe, cuba, many south american and african countires, turkmenistan and it's sorruding countries all left for you to invade if you see fit. sudan was declared genocide a whole year ago but the happy US sits idly bye watching thousands die while it's methods in cuba are deemed obscene and illegal by the un, amensty, red cross, red crescent and other human rights groups. all well and good for mozzam begg and the like.

ps. the ira did randomly attack protestants in ireland.

[Gnostic Yevon]

there has never been at any point in history a time when torture has proved effective in the so called "ticking bomb" scenario. torture has never saved any lives at any time.

and sasquatch toture does not work, all former birtish prisoners in guantanamo bay signed confessions. admitted they had planned to attack the us and would continue to do so, confessed to being a meber of al-qaeda. might have had alot to do with what you don't class as torture. have you been deprived of sleep for a week? 168 hours of white noise? repeated messages and no rest? any idea what's that like. if you are so certain that this in no way causes any kind of pain or punishment on anyone then by all means do it. prove to us that a man can withstand that length of time with these methods of torture. if not then you'll prove me right. on failure to do so before you have those 40 winks i would like you to write a confession saying how you plan to nuke new york to the cia.

there was a documentary here that showed how "mild" torture is used in quantanamo bay, 50% of the contestants walked out and this was only using the disclosed and methods which were legal to put a person through willingly. a tip on the iceberg.

I think Torture on the ticking bomb cases works in Israel ...

[Cloud No.9]

as far as i've heard there has not been one documented case of it happening. but i could be wrong. got to go on what you hear really.

[CloudSquallandZidane]

there has never been at any point in history a time when torture has proved effective in the so called "ticking bomb" scenario. torture has never saved any lives at any time.

Well i just dont think the government would tell us "Hey, alot of people almost died today, but we beat the crap out of this guy and he told us where the bomb was.". Im sure the world has been saved several times by means we know nothing about.

[T-MaN]

Which raises the question,"What other secrets are they hiding?

[Cloud No.9]

don't you think that the government would leap at the chance actually? a chance to prove that they were right all along? that 9-11 wasn't just a one off and that there really could be a terrorist on ever streer? the british government did the same with the ira, when they tried to bomb the prince and princess of wales, publicised it like mad. the source i used was from an ex-cia agent, though i wouldn't expect him to know off all other incidents in other countries he did say that he had never heard of it elsewhere.

got to remember that with this "group" of extremists there will be no ticking bomb, these are suicide bombers they don't leave the bomb in a van, post box or bin to wait until rush hour. they walk in at rush hour themselves. no deadlines or warnings man walks out his house, down the street and boom. if they were going to detonate a nuke on manhattan they wouldn't leave it by the side of the road for some to come and defuse it would be in the back of a van. you can't stop a bomb after that stage. therefore with suicide tactics the ticking bomb scenario is void.

[Gnostic Yevon]

Which raises the question,"What other secrets are they hiding?

(SPOILER)UFOs. Maybe a time-traveling hippie or two. Microwave energy that melts your brain. Prophecies of the end of the world hidden in movies and video games. And green slimey aliens bent on world domination

edit: I really shouldn't have told you all that


Back on topic, the government wouldn't tell you that they're torturing people because the citizens would protest, and the baddies would learn what is going to be used on them. Plus if they didn't know the jig was up, they might walk right into a trap, resulting in more arrests.

[Cloud No.9]

why announce they were tortured? certainly wasn't talked about round here with ira arrests and convictions which is why a few have been released as innocent men, one without any teeth. you would just announce it as intelligence like we did here and everybody believed it was due to moles.

and the other terrorists would know "the jig was up" when there wasn't a big crater where manhattan should be.