Brief History of Communism (and the work of Ronaldus Maximus regarding)

[Sasquatch]

"why is free health care and education suddenly a commie thing to do? i've had it all my life (would have had free school meals, vitamins and milk too if it wasn't for thatcher) and we don't pay extortianite taxes or are driven into the depths of dispair or harship."

With all due respect, that's because even if you do have a job, you most likely don't make very much money, own your own property, or pay many of the other types of taxes that the government collects from people. I don't know how it is where you live, though, and I could be wrong. In America, where people pay more in taxes than they do for food, clothing, and shelter combined, taxes are a bit of a high concern.

[The Captain]

Is it true that people in countires that are more left leaning on their social policies than America, such as Sweden, have a tax rate of closer to 50% of the income of a person, though that tax money goes directly into the universal health care plan and other such programs?

In my opinion, I'd pay higher taxes if the money went into a universal health care and education program. Perhaps it is something to consider in the future.

Take care all.

[eestlinc]

I don't know how it is where you live, though, and I could be wrong. In America, where people pay more in taxes than they do for food, clothing, and shelter combined, taxes are a bit of a high concern.

The very rich may pay a lot of taxes, but that comes with the territory. However, I think you just made this "fact" up, or took it straight from some luminary like Grover Norquist.

I'll use ballpark figures of my own finances from 2004 as an example. I live in the US and work full time. I made about $26,000 in income during 2004. I paid about $4000 in total income-based taxes on my tax return. (You might say I should include the payroll taxes my employer paid on my salary, but only if you think my employer would have otherwise paid that money to me. Somehow I doubt.) That leaves me about $22,000 in net income. Of this, I invested $3000 in my IRA, so I had about $19,000 left that I could spend. I didn't inherit any money or have any capital gains, and I don't own land so I had no property taxes to pay. So I paid car taxes and sales taxes. Sales tax in the county where I live is 7%. So let's just pretend I spent every cent of my remaining income of taxable consumer goods (even though I did not). That would be an additional $1330 in taxes. Add that to the $4000 in income-based taxes for a total of about $5500 (doing some worst case rounding) in taxes paid, which is about 22% of my income.

Now consider my expenses for food, shelter, and clothing. I spent about $4500 on rent alone in 2004, and that includes part of the year that I lived with my parents and did not pay rent. I spent at least $250 a month on food. So add that to my rent payments for a total of $7500. I've already easily exceeded the money I paid in taxes despite using overestimates on taxes paid and underestimates on living expenses.

Then you can consider the $75 a month I have taken out of my paycheck for HMO health insurance. That's about $900 a year I spend on health insurance (that I don't even use, and I would have to pay even more in co-payments if I did).

I hardly feel overtaxed. I might if I made $3 million a year, but I don't (and neither do the vast vast majority of Americans).

Incidentally, did you know the aforementioned Grover Norquist (leader of Americans for Tax Reform and a major Republican strategist, author of the Contract With America, etc) has a large portait of Lenin in his home?

[Shadow Nexus]

my version onf the communist manifesto was certainly larger than 84 pages but did have alot of other stuff in it as well like a really long prologue and other stuff connected. but meh i can't find my copy anymore anyway so i can't really say. but mine was purely titled the communist manifesto and has small print and more than 84 pages. anyway.......

Most printed version of the Communist Manifesto include and introduction, note from the translator, and then the introductions written by Marx or Engels in the several editions of the book. The Communist Manifesto by itself it's merely 84 pages, but most versions I have seen have between 120 an 130 pages.

[Cloud No.9]

thanks shadow nexus for clearing that up.

on the taxes thing...... i believe taxes should be passed on the ability to pay. if you are making 1 billion dollars a year is even halving that gonna make a great deal of difference to you? you're not going to starve or go homeless. the rich pay more taxes rightly because they have more money. if everyone was charged a flat rate (poll tax) then some people couldn't afford it while others would be happilly giving it away while wiping their arse with the same quantity. it needs to be based on ability to pay other wise it's not fair. and most of all it's doing something good for the country and it's people, saving lives, creating jobs and bolstering the economy.

[Sasquatch]

eestlinc -- You're not considering taxes on fuel, tolls, interest, property, tobacco, medicines, utilities, city/county/state, mail, FICA, vehicles ... The government taxes us in a LOT of ways that most people don't even realize. You know they even tax your tax refund? I'm sure The Redneck would know even more, had he not had a bogus ban.

Cloud 9 -- "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"? It doesn't matter who can "afford" what. Do you realize that in America, HALF of the population gets more money from the government than they pay to it in taxes? People get rich for a reason. The work, and they earn more money. That's the beauty of Capitalism--not Socialism, which you're already referenced to. Granted, some rich people inherited their money, or won it, but the way to make more money in a Capitalist economy is to work harder, longer, or smarter. Why should somebody who earns twice as much as me have to pay five times the taxes?

I'm gonna have to look up that lunch thing...

[Cloud No.9]

"Do you realize that in America, HALF of the population gets more money from the government than they pay to it in taxes?" sorry can you clarify this, the american tax system is something i somewhat lack knowledge in and any information would be welcomed. thank you.

the man who is making millions a year should pay more taxes because he can afford to. single parents who are struggling on minimum wage jobs are more needy of the money than mr nike, macdonalds, gates or shell. captilism while letting people get rich also causes a huge and growing gap between rich and poor, it creates a materialistic society in which drugs, crime and sex is rampant and becoming a greater and greater problem.

i once read that the 3 richest men in the world account for a 3rd of the world's money. is that truly fair? these people have far more money than i could ever comprehend is the idea for more taxes for them really that horrible? is the difference of higher taxes to pay fo the support for the most vulnerable in our society to a man who makes money faster than he can spend it really a big issue?

in one week you can work 60 hours digging ditches and breaking your back and earn just enough to keep your house while a rich man can decide to take that week off for a nice nap and live in luxury and can do that regularly. the 60 hour man clearly works harder and longer but is paid less. the rich man can now be idle and lazy but still enjoys the world's riches. am i the only person that sees that as wrong?

an equal pay for an equal days work.

[Sasquatch]

An equal days pay for an equal days work? So let's put this into a scenario... You have two guys, both working 8-hour days. One digs ditches--requires no intelligence, no education, no job skills whatsoever. The other man, let's say, is a neurosurgeon. He's been through eight, maybe ten years of higher education, and now he puts people's spines back together. Is that an "equal days work"? Of course not. The beauty of Capitalism is that that ditch digger can go to college, get some education and job skills, and pretty soon be making much more money than he was.

Why doesn't the government just confiscate every bit of income from every working person, and redistribute it so we all get the same amount? Or, say, we get different amounts depending on if we're married, how many kids we have, etc.? That would be "fair" in your eyes, right? Everybody can afford the same amount, so taxes aren't "crippling" any one person and aren't being "too light" on any other? You know why we don't do that? Because that's called Socialism. No matter how hard the left tries to push us in that direction, we're a Capitalist nation, and it just doesn't work that way.

"i once read that the 3 richest men in the world account for a 3rd of the world's money."

I don't know if or where you read that, but it's a load of bull. The top 1% of wage earners in America don't even account for a third of America's money.

You also mentioned single parents working minimum wage jobs. Minimum wage jobs weren't created to support a family on, they were created for zit-faced teenagers in high school that want to get enough money to buy a Moped. What did that person do to become a single parent in a minimum wage job? Did they get knocked up and drop out of high school? Did they forego college, knowing that a life without any higher education or job skills would lead them to a career of burger flipping? Did they get into drugs and waste their life away until they could no longer keep a spouse or respectable job?

[Cloud No.9]

okay so lets take your scenario. lets change it a little, diggers all die off in a horrible plague, becuase they can't afford health insurance or prescriptions. so now all diggers are dead. need some digging for a new road? nope won't be doing that, foundations for a new house. forget that. new drainage and sanitation, not a hope in hell. same if you got rid off all cleaners, lorry drivers, garbage truck guys. what happens if they aren't anymore. you seriously suffer. if neurosurgeon men all die..... people die but less than the people with garbage piling up, occupied with rats, no able to get homes because noone will dig ditches, getting MRSA. no matter who stops working people will suffer. so what's my point here. all ocupations are need and are needed equally. and if they are needed equally why pay them less.

your point about minimum wage. i'm currently out of school. not because i'm thick or lazy. because i can't afford a 6th year. i'm going to university next year at the best university here and was accepted unconditionly (i am far from thick). but i can't afford the loans. so this year i am taking a year out to work 7 hours a day, 7 days a week until september. on minimum wage.

you can also ened up on minimum wage at 30 with things out of your control, injury, disability, made redundant, recession, going back into the work force after looking after a child, injury or 100 other reasons. and being knocked up during high school does not mean you are an evil person, she could have either made a mistake, been coerced, raped, not properly educated.

getting into drugs is a trap and you should actually be commending someone that comes through that to be an honest member of society doing work which benefits and doesn't steal. not saying they deserve the minimum of what can be given.

my believe system is thus. working benefits everyone, and every worker is a neccessity, an equal neccessity. look what happens during strikes to see what happens when low paid workers don't feel like they are respected. they country grinds to a halt. all people are needed equally and should be treated as such. will take the chance to not have a neurosurgeon to ensure my bin is emptied weekly.

[Sasquatch]

Oh, this is comedic. Here's a question. You need somebody to take out your trash. How much are you willing to pay them? You need somebody to operate on your back so you don't become severely disabled. How much is that worth to you? Do you not see the difference there, or do you really think garbage men and burger flippers should be paid as much as engineers and doctors? Did that engineer spend at least four more years of his life going through (and paying for) extra school to make the same amount of money as the zit-faced kid who works at the Burger Barn? Do crab fisherman risk their lives on a daily basis to make just as much as the guy who works a register at a department store? Do nurses spend all day with their arms covered in bodily fluids to be on the same level as the high school girl who waits tables on the weekends?

(By the way, what's a "lorry", is that a taxi? I'm being serious, sorry, I don't know all the "English-English" lingo.)

I never said that ladies who were knocked up in high school were "evil people", or that people who got into drugs and got clean again deserved to be poor their whole lives. My point was that, barring some horrible disability, where people end up in life is a result of their own choices. (That's a good thing to have stand out.) At least, that's the way it is in America. And it is well possible for people who have made bad decisions to come back and become middle- or upper-class. Even with a disability, there are plenty of programs to help people out.

[nik0tine]

Oh, this is comedic. Here's a question. You need somebody to take out your trash. How much are you willing to pay them? You need somebody to operate on your back so you don't become severely disabled. How much is that worth to you? Do you not see the difference there, or do you really think garbage men and burger flippers should be paid as much as engineers and doctors? Did that engineer spend at least four more years of his life going through (and paying for) extra school to make the same amount of money as the zit-faced kid who works at the Burger Barn? Do crab fisherman risk their lives on a daily basis to make just as much as the guy who works a register at a department store? Do nurses spend all day with their arms covered in bodily fluids to be on the same level as the high school girl who waits tables on the weekends?

Communism does not equalize wages.

[Sasquatch]

Communism does not equalize wages.

Where in that post did I mention Communism? Or even Socialism, which would better apply to that post?

The section you quoted was in response to the comment "all ocupations are need and are needed equally. and if they are needed equally why pay them less."

All up in the kool-ade and don't know the flavor.

[nik0tine]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I havent kept up with this thread lately, and since this thread is about communism, I assumed that is what you were talking about.

[eestlinc]

eestlinc -- You're not considering taxes on fuel, tolls, interest, property, tobacco, medicines, utilities, city/county/state, mail, FICA, vehicles ... The government taxes us in a LOT of ways that most people don't even realize. You know they even tax your tax refund? I'm sure The Redneck would know even more, had he not had a bogus ban.

Fuel taxes: I guess I could add a bit for gasoline taxes, but I drive a car that gets good mileage and I have a short commute to work so I don't use that much

Tolls: The state of Georgia has exactly one tollbooth, it costs 50 cents, and I go through it maybe twice a month.

Interest: All my money is either in my checking account which draws no interest, or invested in my IRA in mutual funds, which draw no interest, and the IRA isn't taxed anyway thanks to a wonderful tax loophole.

Property: I don't own any land.

Tobacco: I don't smoke.

Medicines: I don't use medicines besides the occasional advil or sudafed.

Utilities: So I pay a little bit of tax on my cell phone. My apartment complex doesn't charge me directly for water and electricity, although I'm sure the costs gets passed to my in my rent. However, I'm not technically paying that tax.

City/County/State: I included all local income taxes in my calculations of "income-based taxes". I actually don't pay any city or county income taxes, anyway.

Mail: I hardly consider stamps to be a tax. Stamps are a usage fee. UPS charges for its services too, you know.

FICA: Included in my "income-based tax" calculation as well.

Vehicles: I mentioned my car tag.

Regarding my tax refund, that's just money I had already paid the government that they are returning because it turns out I didn't owe that much. It isn't counted as income because it's already been counted as income when I made it in the first place. Maybe I'm supposed to report it as income but I sure as hell haven't ever done that and the IRS doesn't do a good enough job of informing me that I need to.

[Sasquatch]

okay so lets take your scenario. lets change it a little, diggers all die off in a horrible plague, becuase they can't afford health insurance or prescriptions.

Sorry, I have more to add concerning this. What happens when all the ditch diggers die? I give a guy five bucks an hour and a shovel and tell him to get to work. Whaddya know, I just got a new ditch digger. And why did those ditch diggers not have insurance anyway? Insurance doesn't cost that much (especially if they unionize and force benefit providing on their employer), so why don't they have it? It's not a question of a hardworking man simply not having enough money, it's a question of what else did he spend it on? Maybe he should cancel the sattelite television, or high-speed internet, or buy an older car? If they got their priorities straightened out, they'd have the money for insurance, just maybe not for some of the luxuries (not necessities, but luxuries) that they have.

eestlinc -- $4000 in taxes out of a $26000 income is barely 15%, if you're only paying that, you're doing pretty well, and most likely claiming at least one dependant (yourself). I mean hell, in the military, and they took out over 21% of my base pay. With the rest of it, even factoring in utilities and such, you'd also have to figure in the other taxes that most people pay, or would effect the average...tolls (IL is horrible for tolls, I never remembered there being one in GA), tobacco, pharmaceuticals, property, etc. You would also have to figure in those who make much more money than you do, thus placing them in a higher "tax bracket" so more of their money can be confisc--err, collected by the government. Not to mention the indirect taxes that are small but too many to count--how your head of lettuce goes up a couple cents because of the taxes placed on everything involved in its growing, harvesting, transport, and marketing, etc. etc.