Brief History of Communism (and the work of Ronaldus Maximus regarding)

[Shadow Nexus]

That's war, and we didn't have time to wait for the Iraqi, Chilean, Afghani, or Nicaraguan version of Thomas Jefferson to come around

Of course not, so thats why it's perfectly fine to install paramilitar goverments.

And here some happy advice: don't ever say that if you go to Chile, or the families of those tortured and killed may wish to express disagreement with a nice punch in your face. Wouldn't blame them.

Seriosuly, it's amazing how you seem to reduce human tragedies to simple statistics, ecuations where you attempt to look into your crystal ball and try to decide what was more worth doing. Vanitas vanitatum, et omnia vanitas.

As for the rest of the stuff, well, really, I don't believe making maniacheist divisions of Good and Evil is giving you or anyone any serious vision of history. Also, I recommend you to look for "communism" in the dictionary. Then look for "socialism". Cause really, I am tired of explaining how Russia could never be considered communist because it had a state, and communism is a society without state.

[jrgen]

Jrgen--
Tito's Yugoslavia survived not because communism was a valid system, but because of massive loans--loans from capitalist nations. And even though it was less repressive than other communist regimes, Tito was by no means kind to dissent.

Most nations, including the USA, have more debts then they could possibly ever pay off.

And that article contains lots of subjectivity and inaccurate information.
One page is also not enough to describe over 40 years of a nation's history properly.

it's amazing how you seem to reduce human tragedies to simple statistics,

"One death is a tragedy. One million deaths is a statistic" ~Stalin

[radyk05]

i don't see death and destruction in cuba. all i see is the best doctors in the world, ensured free and (extra) good education, western hemisphere less illiterate country (i'm sorry, i don't have the link but i read this recently on the un's page). did i mention that when a country is struck by disaster they call cuba to send them doctors and teachers? guess that means that they have some of the best material over there. i'll stop now.

[Shadow Nexus]

i don't see death and destruction in cuba. all i see is the best doctors in the world, ensured free and (extra) good education, western hemisphere less illiterate country (i'm sorry, i don't have the link but i read this recently on the un's page). did i mention that when a country is struck by disaster they call cuba to send them doctors and teachers? guess that means that they have some of the best material over there. i'll stop now.

Uhm...I have worked in Cuba, and well, it is a very nice country for the standards of developing nations, but life there isn't that easy, mainly because it's still a poor country and well, you get the necessities covered, but still not covered as much as most of us would consider correctly covered (in the time I worked there, I ate rice EVERY DAY). It also has some censorip and political opression (very mild one compared to most dictatorships...and some democracies) but well, truth is the contradictions and problems of the system are still there, and a lot of the economy depends on inmigrants sending money into the country to give it to their families (I have seen some cuban houses that look just as good or better than most houses over here).

I dunno, Cuba is one of the most beautiful countries I have visited, actually it's to me more than that, my time in Cuba changed me a lot. But well, even if many of the critiques done to the system are very exaggerated, don't idealize it like that either, because it is a country full of problems.

[radyk05]

you're surely right, nexus, but my purpose of my last post was to make some people see that a comunist regime guaranties you the primordial human needs for free like medical treatment and education. some may expect that free services traduces inmediately into bad services but its a fact that cuba has the lowest % of iliteracy and some of the best doctors on the hemisphere. yes, cuba is a poor country and fidel is one of the richest persons in the world but with a proper government that can change. just imagine what will happen to cuba when the us turn off the ... ... man! i don't know the word... ... the economical ... ... wall? shadow, you're spanish. can you translate "embargo" for me? i can't remember the word. hope anyone knows waht i'm talking about.

[Sasquatch]

you're surely right, nexus, but my purpose of my last post was to make some people see that a comunist regime guaranties you the primordial human needs for free like medical treatment and education. some may expect that free services traduces inmediately into bad services but its a fact that cuba has the lowest % of iliteracy and some of the best doctors on the hemisphere. yes, cuba is a poor country and fidel is one of the richest persons in the world but with a proper government that can change. just imagine what will happen to cuba when the us turn off the ... ... man! i don't know the word... ... the economical ... ... wall? shadow, you're spanish. can you translate "embargo" for me? i can't remember the word. hope anyone knows waht i'm talking about.

For free? Socialized medicine is "free"? That's far from true--ever heard of "there's no such thing as a free lunch"? Just because they pay for it with outrageous constant taxes doesn't mean it's "free" when they don't have to directly pay. You would make a great Democrat.

Yes, Cuba is wonderful, a land of freedom and liberty, great health care, spectacular educational systems, a land flowing with milk and honey. It's no wonder Cuba gets so many illegal immigrants from the United States. Wait a minute...

[eestlinc]

I'm pretty sure a US citizen pays more per capita than a UK citizen does for health care.

[Shadow Nexus]

man! i don't know the word... ... the economical ... ... wall? shadow, you're spanish. can you translate "embargo" for me?

The word in English is.......embargo!!!

Although I guess "economical blocking" can be used too. But embargo is the word. Um..where are you from?

Yes, Cuba is wonderful, a land of freedom and liberty, great health care, spectacular educational systems, a land flowing with milk and honey. It's no wonder Cuba gets so many illegal immigrants from the United States. Wait a minute...

Where did anyone say Cuba is wonderful?

[radyk05]

don't believe me...

Country_________ Year____ Illiteracy rate for aged 15-24 (%)
Cuba_________2000-2004_____.2 (Male)______.2 (Female)
Mexico__________2000_______3.5 (M)________3.2 (F)
Puerto Rico____2000-2004_____1.6 (M)________2.9 (F)



Country__________Year____Life Expectancy at birth
Cuba_________2000-2005_____79(M)_____75(F)
Puerto Rico____2000-2005_____80 (M)____71(F)
USA__________2000-2005_____80 (M)____74(F)




Country_________Year______Estimated number living with HIV/AIDS
Cuba___________2003___________________3
USA____________2003__________________950

... believe statistics
http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demograph...dwm/indwm2.htm

btw, im puerto rican.

[Moose Knight]

I searched this entire thread for "Lech Walesa" and came up with nothing. Now I know that everyone on this forum is a moron. You can't have a discussion about the fall of communism without mentioning this man. This, coupled with Mikeal Gorbachev and a number of other factors, is why Ronald Reagan did not "singlehandedly defeat communism" or whatever trite phrase they use now. Sure glad he's dead, though. What a worthless piece of crap.

[The Redneck]

Eestlinc--
Direct war may not have been an option shortly after WWII, but that doesn't mean we had to do nothing. It surely doesn't mean we had to precipitate the Korean War by declaring we wouldn't defend our allies, for example, or allow a communist takeover of Cuba.

f course not, so thats why it's perfectly fine to install paramilitar goverments.

Iraq, Afghanistan, and Nicaragua have elected governments, and we didn't install Pinochet in Chile--surprisingly enough, Latin American generals are capable of staging coups without outside help.

Seriosuly, it's amazing how you seem to reduce human tragedies to simple statistics, ecuations where you attempt to look into your crystal ball and try to decide what was more worth doing. Vanitas vanitatum, et omnia vanitas.

Which is how you can defend the system that murdered more than 100 million of its own people, I suppose?

Also, I recommend you to look for "communism" in the dictionary. Then look for "socialism". Cause really, I am tired of explaining how Russia could never be considered communist because it had a state, and communism is a society without state.

Strange, then, how they followed the precepts of the Communist Manifesto and such, isn't it?

Most nations, including the USA, have more debts then they could possibly ever pay off.

I'm afraid that ain't the case. If federal spending was frozen at current levels, we'd be running a surplus in a few years. (one of the things that pisses me off about Bush--the average president averages 5 vetoes a year, and Bush has yet to veto a spending bill.) Moreover, most of our government's debt comes from our own people (bonds), not massive aid packages from other countries.

And that article contains lots of subjectivity and inaccurate information.

Seeing as it's clearly supportive of Tito, I have to agree about subjectivity, but perhaps you could find a more "accurate" source?

i don't see death and destruction in cuba.

Try looking at how they treat their people. Or, why not take a look at their hospitals? The USSR's hospitals were supposedly the best in the world too, until Reagan tore down the Communist regime and we found out that 50% of them didn't have running water.... Or would you rather take a communist regime's word for how great things are in their country--like Castro sympathizer Suzanne Ross, who's provided one of my favorite quotes: "We have to understand that there are differences between capitalist lobotomies and socialist lobotomies."

There's a reason Cubans are getting on innertubes to cross 90 miles of ocean to get to America--and I seriously doubt it's because the thought of good free health care scares them.

Moose Knight--
Lech Walesa fought Communism in Poland. Ronaldus Maximus fought Communism all over the world. See the difference, *snip*

Edit: Personal attack = EoEO ban. You know the rules.

[The Captain]

Would you agree though, that without the collapse of Communism in Poland and Germany, which was attributed more to the figures over there than Reagan, the struggle against the USSR wouldn't have happened in quite the same fashion?

Reagan was one of the more important figures, for certain in defeating the dictatorships in place in the USSR, but he was not the linchpin of everything in my opinion. Defeating Communism, or technically, dictatorships that used Communism to gain power was a global effort, not solely the work of any one person.

Also, why do you refer to Ronald Reagan as you would the Caesar of Rome?

Take care all.

[Shadow Nexus]

I don't know if you'll read my replies since you are temporally banned, but anyway...

and we didn't install Pinochet in Chile--surprisingly enough, Latin American generals are capable of staging coups without outside help.

Videla didn't need your help, Pinochet did. I really don't think I need to explain the whole story again, because I guess you know it.

Which is how you can defend the system that murdered more than 100 million of its own people, I suppose?

Of course, not only I find Stalin wonderful, but I spend my free time throwing dead puppies to the faces of orphans while laughing in that evil way. Thunder in the background and all!

I hope this system I defend so much comes soon, and I am killed along with my family. Now that would be exciting! Although I guess I should ask for a little torture before that.

Now can I ask you where I defended the USSR? I'm afraid I may have posted under an alternative personality I am not aware of.

Strange, then, how they followed the precepts of the Communist Manifesto and such, isn't it?

No, they claimed to follow such precepts, wich by the way, only fill 84 pages with a large font, at least thats what I see in my book. Not like you can do a whole political system based on such a book. If you are interested in the difference between Marixst theory and the supposed application of that theory under the USSR goverment, I can recommend you some readings on Cornelius Castoriadis, Erich Fromm or Herbert Marcuse. Good readings, by the way.

[eestlinc]

Let's all avoid calling each other morons and referring to public figures as pieces of crap.

[Cloud No.9]

my version onf the communist manifesto was certainly larger than 84 pages but did have alot of other stuff in it as well like a really long prologue and other stuff connected. but meh i can't find my copy anymore anyway so i can't really say. but mine was purely titled the communist manifesto and has small print and more than 84 pages. anyway.......

why is free health care and education suddenly a commie thing to do? i've had it all my life (would have had free school meals, vitamins and milk too if it wasn't for thatcher) and we don't pay extortianite taxes or are driven into the depths of dispair or harship. cuba suffers right now because it does have the trade embargo. it's a country that can't be self suffeicent but can't trade so is left very much high and dry.

i don't believe anyone truly had a great impact on the fall of communism. it was a doomed outcome of a corrupt system that was spread to thinly with dwindling power. the old romanticism was gone from the revolutions and people were tired of the same inequality and oppression they had suffered before. it was a process that started when communism first came to power, it was a flawed system doomed to fail.