i do hate being called niave. i consider myself very well read and educated (well compared to others round here (not the forum where i live)) and in fact tend to be extremely cynical about all things. and my dislike of america is not a fad (been done for decades) and i have given reasoned arguments for doing so. (we are not starting that topic om this thread) anyway i don't believe this thread should be used for put downs it is a positive thread regarding who you enjoy debating with for positive reasons.

never considered myself a very green party man either (unless it means something else is america) my support lies with the liberal democrats (where the whigs in a way) which are not overly left wing.

sorry for going off topic there but it seemed the time and place to do so.