the anti war hero thread

[Cloud No.9]

she? she? bloody she? thank you very much but i am male.

and i never said that a few bad grapes ruin the bunch. i said a few bad grapes means that you cannot say that all grapes are 100% great and should be praised from here to kingdom come without first checking seeing if in fact a. they are not bad grapes b. if they are extra-ordinary grapes and not just normal grapes.

now if we continue this lovely metaphor. grapes may be a lovely fruit a great fruit. got lots of good stuf in them and better for you than avacado. there are other types of great fruits out there. you don't have to be a grape to be a great fruit. apples can be good. but like grapes you get bad ones too. not all apples are bad because there are bad apples but not all apples are great either just for being apples. rotten apples cause tummy upsets. not as much as grapes. sour grapes are evil.

yeah that's enough of the metaphor.

so if you would read what i say. quote in context.

i'll quote what you quoted twice in your post and run through it for you.

"so are people here honestly saying all combat soliders are heros? lindy england? war criminals? human rights abusers? genocidists?"

okay so that so called evil part. what's wrong with it? it clearly ststes i believe not all solders are heroes. some are guilty of very evil crimes against humanity. but at no point does it say that all soldiers are bad for these soldiers. it merely says you cannot judge all soldiers as the same because some are guilty of horrible crimes. others are not.

oh and if you want an offensive quote

"This doesn't change the fact that soldiers are quite frankly 10x as brave and heroic as you could ever hope to be."

never ever judge me or anything i have done or been through. you have no idea about my life or anything i have been through. you never even knew what sex i was so if you are incapable of judging my sex do not judge my life and any courage or lack thereof.

[Gnostic Yevon]

"This doesn't change the fact that soldiers are quite frankly 10x as brave and heroic as you could ever hope to be."

I'm sorry but it's true. And if you'd bother to read what I said, I told you that almost every one of us is in that boat. A soldier is braver than you or me because a soldier volenteered to protect strangers at risk of his own life. Unless you can show me where you've done that as a cop, firefighter, or a soldier, you are less brave then they are. I'm willing to bet that you've never been closer to combat than reading about it in the newspapers or playing metal of honor. I'm in the same boat as you are here. Nobody who has never been in combat has any right to compare what a soldier does to ordinary work. It's just that simple. We have a life of luxury compared to them.

[nik0tine]

I link them? Cloud's ENTIRE argument is "some soldiers have done bad things, so no soldier can possibly be a hero" and in her argument she is clearly linking the entire soldier proffesion to Nazis, War Criminals and Genocidists. And I stand by my words, she's saying what she's saying to win an internet debate. I'm refuting her half assed argument that the existence of Nazis makes the proffession something less than it is.

Where do you come up with like this? Her argument is this: Not all soldiers are heroes. Proof of this is that some soldiers have commited attrocities. Therefore, not all soldiers are heroes.

The argument is NOT "Some soldiers have commited attrocities, therefore all soldiers are not heroes". I am WELL aware of what has been said, as are you. However, unlike you, I am well aware of the obvious meaning behind those words. You need to drop this point, because it's blatantly false. Continuing with it is a waste of time, because you are wrong. (And there can be no debate on that)

That's what she said. She thinks the existence of war criminals makes a soldiers job less heroic. She's entitled to her opinion, but it's wrong. It's as wrong as saying I should be ashamed of being German because there were some bad Germans or that I should be ashamed of being a CS person because the first computers were used in war. It's irrelevant to the issue.

Again, there is no truth behind anything you have said.

[Cloud No.9]

bloody well stop calling me a girl!!!!

combat bravery is not the only type of bravery in this world and neither is it the greatest. you can be the bravest man in the world without ever seeing or holding a gun.

and to say that i have never experienced it means that i can not judge it is not true. unless of course you want to take back what you said aboiut my lack of bravery for not signing up. because if i can't judge a soldier you have no right to judge me. i will judge every person based on his merits not by his title, uniform, rank, social status or career.

[lordblazer]

nik she did say since there are a few bad apple soldiers that all soldiers aren't heroes I read all her post every single post that cloud no.9 has posted.Well I'm done here.

[theundeadhero]

Cloud No.9, what I get out of your argument is that since some soldiers do bad things then not all combat soldiers can be considered heroes, even the ones that don't commit something bad. We all agree that those soldiers should not be called heroes. The thing is, why should every combat soldiers reputation have to suffer because of those bad grape actions. Is it not possible that every combat soldier could be considered a hero except those that commit war crimes and loose the right to be called a hero. The combat soldiers reputation shouldn't have to suffer because of some bad grapes. Those bad grapes cold have been considered a hero too before doing bad things in a wartime situation and therefor loosing the hero status.

if you rounded up jews on trains for auschwitz are you a hero? were the shootings in uzbekistan heroic? was bloody sunday heroic? geurnica? dunkirk? were the japanese heroic when the captured soliders and sent them to certain death?

To us, no they are not heroes, but to the countries/ideals they served, those people did consider them a hero. All through this thread we've shown that hero is a point of view. I'm sure your Englishman who earned the vc(?) medal isn't considered a hero by the Iraqi insurgants.

[Cloud No.9]

"nik she did say since there are a few bad apple soldiers that all soldiers aren't heroes I read all her post every single post that cloud no.9 has posted.Well I'm done here."

right that's it. i am really bloody shonked of now. i am not a girl and frankly having posted twice already on that fact i am left with no option but just to either count you as ignorant, stupid or just plain rude. take your pick.

undeadhero is getting close to my point. surely heroship needs to be earned? based on the merit of a great action or actions.

if i was to sign up today would you count me as a hero tomorrow?

[DarkLadyNyara]

(there was one fellow like that--seventh-day adventist, who just wouldn't shoot at anybody. He told them he still wanted to help, so they made him a medic. During one battle he was helping someone and a bullet broke his arm. He splinted it with a busted rifle-stock and as they were carrying him back to the unit he saw someone else wounded--so he crawled off the stretcher while the others were ducking gunfire and saved that guy's butt too.)

Now, see, that is a hero.

if i was to sign up today would you count me as a hero tomorrow?

Exactly. Being called a hero is something you earn. There are alot of heros in the military, and a lot of jerks. (war criminals being a prime example). If you say everyone is a hero regardless of their actions, then you devalue the true heros.

[theundeadhero]

if i was to sign up today would you count me as a hero tomorrow?

No, because you wouldn't of served in combat yet.

[Casey]

suicide bombers like soldiers die for what they believe in. not all belive in martyrdom some do it for liberation and freedom. it's not a case of "the best way to get into heaven is martyrdom so today i'll blow myself up to go to heaven. no real other reason but i like the idea of heaven i do" there is underpinning reason why suicide bombers do what they do. in palestine and chechnya it is for a state not martyrdom that drives these people.

You dont see U.S. soldiers walking around blow themselves up killing 100s of innocents including women and children.

but what they do is surely as unheroic as what happened in abu gahrib. so to say that war criminals and terrorists are both not heros is reasonable is it not?.

A muslim extremist may think that the 9/11 suicide hi-jackers were heroes for crashing a air plane into the twin towers. Suicide bombers/Kamikazes, their "heroic" logic of thinking is backwards, and is preventing the progression of the Iraqi society.

the army works in the same way here as it does america with the people who join. most tend to be very unqualified and those who are qualified normally serve as officers. but your post actually brings up an interesting point that i will take to address now.

back on topic. i know two ta members (both plan to join the regular army) and say they are not fighting for any particular cause or belief. i work with them both so aren't desperate un-employed. they are joining because they see it as a good career they are qualified for. and they want to be combat soliders (one wants to be in the paras). people are given the choice to become desk people but turn it down or aren't qualified or there isn't infinite space. some though just don't like the idea of that kind of job and want to be combat soldiers and not for belief reasons or out of desperation but because that is what they want to do.

Well that's just 2 people. Many people join for different reasons. Here is another person, I joined the Army National Guard because I wanted to stay in my hometown, and be assigned with the 1-303rd armor division here in Bremerton. I want to goto college at the same time, with financial assistance from the G.I. Bill Kicker from the Army. At the same time I joined because I love this country, and I like are current commander in chief. And the cool thing about it is you can go to active duty regular army anytime you want, but you will have to wait during a 3-6 month process for them to process it through.

Main Entry: he·ro
Pronunciation: 'hir-(")O, 'hE-(")rO
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural heroes
Etymology: Latin heros, from Greek hErOs
1 a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability b : an illustrious warrior c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities d : one that shows great courage
2 a : the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work b : the central figure in an event, period, or movement
3 plural usually heros : SUBMARINE 2
4 : an object of extreme admiration and devotion : IDOL

Main Entry: 1sol·dier
Pronunciation: 'sOl-j&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English soudier, from Middle French, from soulde pay, from Late Latin solidus solidus
1 a : one engaged in military service and especially in the army b : an enlisted man or woman c : a skilled warrior
2 : a militant leader, follower, or worker
3 a : one of a caste of wingless sterile termites usually differing from workers in larger size and head and long jaws b : one of a type of worker ants distinguished by exceptionally large head and jaws
4 /'sO-j&r, 'sOl-/ : one who shirks work
- sol·dier·ly /-lE/ adjective or adverb
- sol·dier·ship /-"ship/ noun

I would just like to point out that a hero doesnt have to be that of a IDOL.

1 a : a mythological or legendary figure often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability b : an illustrious warrior c : a man admired for his achievements and noble qualities d : one that shows great courage

It could be a Soldier who puts on a uniform, by living these Army Values,
Loyalty
Duty
Respect
Selfless - Service
Honor
Integrity
Personal Courage

You can become a Hero...

A good example would be SFC SMITH, PAUL R of the United States Army. For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty:Sergeant First Class Paul R. Smith distinguished himself by acts of gallantry and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty in action with an armed enemy near Baghdad International Airport, Baghdad, Iraq on 4 April 2003. On that day, Sergeant First Class Smith was engaged in the construction of a prisoner of war holding area when his Task Force was violently attacked by a company-sized enemy force. Realizing the vulnerability of over 100 fellow soldiers, Sergeant First Class Smith quickly organized a hasty defense consisting of two platoons of soldiers, one Bradley Fighting Vehicle and three armored personnel carriers. As the fight developed, Sergeant First Class Smith braved hostile enemy fire to personally engage the enemy with hand grenades and anti-tank weapons, and organized the evacuation of three wounded soldiers from an armored personnel carrier struck by a rocket propelled grenade and a 60mm mortar round. Fearing the enemy would overrun their defenses, Sergeant First Class Smith moved under withering enemy fire to man a .50 caliber machine gun mounted on a damaged armored personnel carrier. In total disregard for his own life, he maintained his exposed position in order to engage the attacking enemy force. During this action, he was mortally wounded. His courageous actions helped defeat the enemy attack, and resulted in as many as 50 enemy soldiers killed, while allowing the safe withdrawal of numerous wounded soldiers. Sergeant First Class Smith’s extraordinary heroism and uncommon valor are in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service and reflect great credit upon himself, the Third Infantry Division “Rock of the Marne,” and the United States Army.

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/mohiraq.htm

i never comapred soldiers to nazis. i compared the wermacht and ss to soldiers. which they were.........

and i compared war criminals to people who aren't heroes. and if you eally belive war criminals are heroes then your morals are fully slipped.

so yeah that argument is void. i'll explain really simply.

i said not all soldiers are heros. i said that one of the reasons that some soldiers are not heros is because they might have slaughtered civiliians. i don't think this is a totally bad thing to say. ir do you want to salute the deaths head squadron in charge of auschwitz purely because they were solides go ahead.

but i for one are not with you on that salute. i will salute heroes.

LOok you can try to twist your own words to make it sound better, but your basic argument is :

No soldiers are heros because some soldiers are nazis, and some have committed war crimes.

That's your whole argument. I never said that nazis are war heros, I said that these war criminals that you bring up are A VERY VERY SMALL NUMBER OF ACTUAL SOLIERS. Out of 100,000 abu graib was done by what 10 people, maybe? The war criminals aren't war heros. No sherlock. But you can't use that argument to say that soldiers in general should not be considered heros. That's a stupid argument. It's like saying that accountants aren't good people and then when asked why pointing to enron accountants. Yes crap happens, and the criminals are caught and brought to justice.

Nobody celebrates war crimes. But I'm gonna have to object if you try to say that those who fight should somehow be ashamed because of a few bad apples, most of whom are caught and punished for dishonoring their fellow soldiers by acting like barbarians.

Or should you be ashamed to be Scottish because William Wallace and his men may have at one point committed a war crime?

I concure.

This debate really is useless because everyone has their own idealogy on what makes a soldier a hero. Or what makes a person a hero. It's sort of baseless...

[nik0tine]

nik she did say since there are a few bad apple soldiers that all soldiers aren't heroes I read all her post every single post that cloud no.9 has posted.Well I'm done here.

I would like a quote from cloud 9, 'cos I really don't believe you.

Is it not possible that every combat soldier could be considered a hero except those that commit war crimes and loose the right to be called a hero.

No, it is not possible. (At least, not in my mind) It takes more than being a soldier to be a hero.

I would just like to point out that a hero doesnt have to be that of a IDOL.

Not a mythological idol, no. But they have to be worth idolizing in order to be a hero. A group of people can never achieve that status. Only an individual can.

Also, noname... I agree that that man can be considered a hero. However, that still doesn't mute my point that not all soldiers are heroes (And most of them never will be) It something much more than being a soldier (something like what this man did) He can be honored as a soldier, most people however, soldier or not, cannot be considered a hero.

this sentance bugs me though.

His courageous actions helped defeat the enemy attack, and resulted in as many as 50 enemy soldiers killed

So being a hero is measured by how many enemies you kill? I don't believe the amount of enemies one kills is criteria for heroism. If it IS, than whoever came up with that criteria is morally bankrupt.

This debate really is useless because everyone has their own idealogy on what makes a soldier a hero. Or what makes a person a hero. It's sort of baseless...

I agree that this debate is useless, but for different reasons than you. I feel that this debate COULD have had some redeeming value, if people would post with some degree of intelligence. Unfortunately, most people have posted nothing but nonsense, and thier arguments were based on anger, and it was backed up by the twisting of other peoples words. (I am not directly accusing anyone. You should know who you are by now. [there are alot of you])

[Casey]

So being a hero is measured by how many enemies you kill? I don't believe the amount of enemies one kills is criteria for heroism. If it IS, than whoever came up with that criteria is morally bankrupt.

Yea, but the actions of this guy who was rewarded the medal of honor. SFC Smith, Paul R. He killed those 50 enemy insurgents and there was around 100, and that helped make them retreat. If he didnt take at that post with the .50 caliber machine gun, alot of his comrades would be dead.

[nik0tine]

Yea, but the actions of this guy who was rewarded the medal of honor. SFC Smith, Paul R. He killed those 50 enemy insurgents and there was around 100, and that helped make them retreat. If he didnt take at that post with the .50 caliber machine gun, alot of his comrades would be dead.

I realize that, but the reason he is a hero is because he took action, went above and beyond, and got the enemy to retreat, which saved the lives of his comrades. NOT because he killed 50 people. I don't understand why that sentance needs to be in there, but that's just me.

[The Redneck]

The closest most people on these boards have *ever* been to combat is sitting in an easy chair playing Metal of Honor and pretending that we have any idea what combat is like. There are a few exceptions (Redneck (i think), Susquatch, and War Angel).

I'd like to take the credit here, but I haven't seen combat. That's not to say my time in Korea was exactly calm--during the year I was there we found another tunnel ("we" as in the Army, not as in "myself and others"), the North Koreans crashed a sub that was supposedly the result of a training accident and used it to send a platoon of soldiers into Korea, and they managed to get a plane over Seoul somehow (not only the capital of Korea, but Yongsan is located in Seoul, so a strike there would take out the head of both Korean and American resistance.)--but I spent my time in the Army fixing trucks, not shooting at anybody. I actually could join VFW, because the Korean War is technically not over but at a 50-year cease-fire--but to do so would be a slap in the face to every veteran who did serve his or her country in war.

So being a hero is measured by how many enemies you kill? I don't believe the amount of enemies one kills is criteria for heroism. If it IS, than whoever came up with that criteria is morally bankrupt.

That's war. An army's objective in war is to kill people and break things--there are a lot of nice ways to describe it, and there are a lot of reasons why sometimes it's necessary, but that's the ghist of it--you either kill people and break things, or you support the people who kill people and break things.

Moreover, those 50 people were part of a force with the exact same goal--kill us and break our things. Assuming the "company-sized force" was 250 people, killing 50 people means that he single-handedly destroyed 20% of the enemy's capability to harm his unit. Since he had about 100 troops, that in turn means he saved about 20 American lives by that act alone. If, as noname suggests, the "company-sized force" was made up of 100 attackers, then he saved about 50 American lives.

On top of that, the unit citation tends to add in all the details they can--if he'd shouted something cool like "all your allah are belong to us!" while he was at it, they'd probably have added that in too.

[Cloud No.9]

"Quote:
if i was to sign up today would you count me as a hero tomorrow?

No, because you wouldn't of served in combat yet."

so when i step foot on baghdad i'm suddenly trasnformed into a hero? at what point there has my merits good or bad changed?

no this point isn't pointless because people see it from different points of view that is the point of an argument. if we want subjects were people only agree we can talk very blandly about everything with no opinion.