the anti war hero thread

[Cloud No.9]

there have been alot of posts here saying thanks and praising all the soldiers in the war.

i'm not going to do thie opposite but merely going to say that not all soldiers are war heroes or even good people. a gun and uniform do not make you a better person. you are still the same person in iraq that you were at home. all of a sudden you do not command greater respect because you wear camo and have a gun in hand. if you were a thief, a liar, racist, abusiveor evil before you went into the service then you are still that same person. for me you do not command any kind of recognition for simply fighting in a war.

of course there are some people that do earn my greatest respect for things they do in the war. the guy who recently won the VC for instance. that is a man who everyone should hold high. there are many others beside him that do deserve a great deal of respect for what they have done.

but for the majority this is not true. some will just not perform anything brave or out of the line of duty and so have performed their jobs as soldiers in the same way an accoutant does for checking bank figures. some will shoot a few enemies this is again performing a duty rather than anything extra-oridinary. some may abuse their position, commit crimes and abuse either their comrades or others. most will not. but all have performed their jobs in the same way millions of others do every day.

i do not believe that every soldier deserves recognition for their job. but there are a few who deserve every recognition for what they have done. most though have not.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

The duty itself is extraordinary. Duh.

[Chris]

I'm joining the military soon; hopefully I'll become a Navy Marine in due time.

[Cloud No.9]

the duty though is not extra-ordinary. to be extraordinary it has to be rare. it's not there a few hundred million soldiers in the world to proof that. to do something extra-ordinary while doing that duty needs tob recognised. but being a soldier does not. it isn't a grat feat of courage and bravery to sign up and go through training. to take a bullet for someone else. to throw back a live grenade is or in the case of the latest vc awardee to drive a take which is on fire through an ambush and take horrific injuries only to go back on duty and perform another feat of human courage is. to merely follow orders is not.

[Gnostic Yevon]

the duty though is not extra-ordinary. to be extraordinary it has to be rare. it's not there a few hundred million soldiers in the world to proof that. to do something extra-ordinary while doing that duty needs tob recognised. but being a soldier does not. it isn't a grat feat of courage and bravery to sign up and go through training. to take a bullet for someone else. to throw back a live grenade is or in the case of the latest vc awardee to drive a take which is on fire through an ambush and take horrific injuries only to go back on duty and perform another feat of human courage is. to merely follow orders is not.

how many times have you been shot at working at McDonald's? How many people here go to work preparing to die while doing their job, and wouldn't trade it for a comfortable office job? Being a soldier or a cop is extraordinary in itself.

[Cloud No.9]

not all soldiers are shot at and very few wish to change jobs. they were not conscripted but joined of free will for whatever reason they did.

if you suddenly say that all soldiers are heroes then you must say the same about your enemy and all your enemies of past. and this is not true. and conversely there are some heroes on the other sides who have showed great courage. doing something makes you a hero not being something.

[Casey]

If you were in a uniform in Seattle, Washington. It's like your the enemy, you get spit on... I recognize them for all the they take from people who dont express thanks for what their doing in the service of their country. Regardless of the politics involved. Some of them give so much, give up so much of their time, and even some give up the ultimate sacrifice, their lives. It's not your everyday job.

how many times have you been shot at working at McDonald's? How many people here go to work preparing to die while doing their job, and wouldn't trade it for a comfortable office job? Being a soldier or a cop is extraordinary in itself.

I agree totally.

And also it's May. Which happens to be "National Military Appreciation Month" here in the U.S. so I dont know WTF is wrong with showing appreciation. No one even hasnt posted in my thread yet ...

http://www.eyesonff.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61746

you dont have to.

[Cloud No.9]

i wouldn't spit on a soldier well not unless they had commited some crime. in the same way i wouldn't spit on my local banker who protects my money in the country these men are protecting.

noname you actually put it fairly clearly "Some of them give so much, give up so much of their time, and even some give up the ultimate sacrifice, their lives."

the vast majority do not perform some great heroic deed. as you put it some do. those men have medals for bravery on their chest. those who perform even beyond this carry the vc (is the american equaivelent the MH?). but most will not recieve a brave for heroic duties or bravery because they did not perform as such. they performed their duties as they should and yes this should be respected and not spat upon but it should not be used to represent the greatest people on earth. not all soldiers are great men some are horrible, evil people. these maybe the minority by far. but then so are the heroes. being a soldier does not change a man. a hero in war would have performed to that level if he had chosen a different career as would a coward or criminal soldier would have stole, defauded or bullied in an office job.

[DocFrance]

Nothing like a little degradation to start my day. Thanks!

On average, people only think of themselves, extending their interest at most to their immedate family and friends. They go to work, they make money, they obey the law.

A soldier's primary duty is to protect. When a person joins the military, he or she gives up many rights and luxuries that nearly everyone else takes for granted. It's a higher calling - to selflessly defend the selfish. I'm not saying everyone everyone who isn't a soldier is selfish, but that most people don't usually worry about the livelihoods of someone they don't even know.

Anyway, it doesn't matter if a soldier is an F-16 pilot patrolling the skies, an army private sitting in a foxhole, or an airman at home with a desk job. The sacrifice is still the same - to serve, above all else.

[nik0tine]

A soldier's primary duty is to protect. When a person joins the military, he or she gives up many rights and luxuries that nearly everyone else takes for granted. It's a higher calling - to selflessly defend the selfish.

I agree with this, although most likely in a different way than you do. A soldiers job is not to "protect people" it's to protect the interests of people. (In other words, political interests. To believe otherwise is foolish.)

Anyways, I agree with Cloud 9. Soldiers aren't hero's. They are soldiers. I expect a soldier to do thier job, because it's thier job. However, it is the few soldiers that go above and beyond that are hero's.

Also, the only reason the whole "hero" and "support our troops" thing even exists is to gain support for the war.

I don't mean to degrade soldiers, even though I know it is going to sound like I am doing just that. I don't think the term "hero" should be thrown around so lightly though. A hero must go above and beyond what they are required to do. (And when I say 'above and beyond' I mean it) A hero makes a huge impact. One soldier does not. A hero is someone like MLK jr. Ghandi, Nelson Mandela, and possibly John Paul II. I can't think of any soldiers who could be considered a hero at the moment (Although I know that there are some.) Possibly Eisenhower or Audy(sp?) Murphy.

A hero is one in a million, a soldier is a dime a dozen. Only an individual can be a hero, an entire subgroup of people cannot, and it doesn't make sense to believe that they are.

Once again, I would like to reiterate the fact that I mean no disrespect to soldiers, even though it probably sounds disrespectful. However, intent and content are different things.


EDIT: I also would like to mention that I don't like the title of this thread. I don't think we should be against war heros. We should simply be against war. I think the title of this thread is disrespectful and misleading.

[DocFrance]

I guess the whole thing depends on your definition of a hero. I see a hero a someone who goes out of his or her way to improve other peoples' lives.

[The Redneck]

the duty though is not extra-ordinary. to be extraordinary it has to be rare. it's not there a few hundred million soldiers in the world to proof that.

Anytime someone puts their life on the line, or enters a situation where there's a chance it will be on the line, for their country, they're doing something extraordinary--it doesn't matter if there's a billion other people doing it.

Also, the only reason the whole "hero" and "support our troops" thing even exists is to gain support for the war.

You'd be surprised how many of us horrible conservatives have always supported the military....

Anyway, it doesn't matter if a soldier is an F-16 pilot patrolling the skies, an army private sitting in a foxhole, or an airman at home with a desk job. The sacrifice is still the same - to serve, above all else.

Moreover, experience has proved again and again that just because you don't go all-out bullet-stopper infantry grunt doesn't mean you won't see combat. My drill sergeant, when I was in, told me that one of the best soldiers he ever fought beside was admin--the guy did paperwork, when folks weren't shooting at him.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

If you were in a uniform in Seattle, Washington. It's like your the enemy, you get spit on...

That's a load of crap. I've never seen that happen and I LIVE in Seattle, thank you very much. Generally if someone does anything, it's shy away from them because they might be a recruiter (especially if they're on a school campus, then you KNOW that's what they're there for).

And frankly I think this entire thread is more than a little offensive. While I might not agree with the war I think the actions of the military should be taken on a case by case basis and a thread like this is highly insulting to many of the soldiers we have on this forum, the expectations of a soldier are generally beyond what most of us face, and I do not believe any of us have the right to say something like this to any of them.

[ShunNakamura]

Well as someone said it depends on your definitions.

Hero- How do you define it? You do something few others can, is how I see it. And that would mean it would have to be rare. Depends on your view.

Extraodinary(out of the ordinary I believe is the dictionary def.)- I personally don't think it is overly extraondinary to be a soldier.. though it may be lightly so since you need many skills. But extraodinary to me is someone with an IQ or 190 plus, who can really show their intellegence, to me High intellegence is extraodinary(most people in my area are average, so that is probably why, not to mention my IQ is not 190, and I doubt I could ever attain such a score.. if I did I would have that test reevaluated, rechecked, and rinse and repeat till the score comes out right) Oh yes a very good(lets say state champ) female wrestler that I knew would register as extraodinary to me.

Here is the dictionary listings:
Beyond what is ordinary or usual
Highly exceptional; remarkable
Employed or used for a special service, function, or occasion

Seems like you must be out of the ordinary to qualify as extraordinary.

Oh yes lets define hero while we are at it.
Hero:
A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life:
A person noted for special achievement in a particular field

these two definitions(which are the ones relevant to our discusion I think) fall into two categories. First can qualify many, many people such as firemen, cops, soldiers, etc. So there we could say that one is a hero. However, nobility of purpose is questionable in some eyes so that may tarnish the first definition.

Second "noted for special acheivement", this is how I think it is commonly took when dealing with the military, and in general.

From the above I can thus conclude that the average soldier is not extraordinary, nor a hero. Some soldiers are both, some are one or the other, some are neither.

Please do not take this as bashing, I mean it to be a reasonable discusion.

P.S. my early *guessed* definitions weren't too far off, YIPEE.

[DocFrance]

An ordinary person does not give up liberty, luxury, and life to defend his or her country. A soldier does. By pure and simple definition, this makes any soldier "extra-ordinary" - more than ordinary.

And frankly I think this entire thread is more than a little offensive. While I might not agree with the war I think the actions of the military should be taken on a case by case basis and a thread like this is highly insulting to many of the soldiers we have on this forum, the expectations of a soldier are generally beyond what most of us face, and I do not believe any of us have the right to say something like this to any of them.

Thank you very much. I'm glad someone has their head on straight here.