well alot of people who fought in the international brigades were of "dubious" political linkage. many liked communism, socialism, anarchism some like george orwell just didn't like the idea of a nazi puppet government. germany backed franco and the fascists. russia backed anyone else going.

but people died for what they believed in without pay or pension. orwell took a bullet in the neck and was never going to receive a war pension.

but does this topic all come back to "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter" are hero's only hero's if they fight for what you believe in?

suicide bombers like soldiers die for what they believe in. not all belive in martyrdom some do it for liberation and freedom. it's not a case of "the best way to get into heaven is martyrdom so today i'll blow myself up to go to heaven. no real other reason but i like the idea of heaven i do" there is underpinning reason why suicide bombers do what they do. in palestine and chechnya it is for a state not martyrdom that drives these people.

but what they do is surely as unheroic as what happened in abu gahrib. so to say that war criminals and terrorists are both not heros is reasonable is it not?.

you cannot stamp every man that dies for a cause as a hero.

i personally belive heroship needs to be earned in battle (if you are a solider). not given to you when you are given your uniform.

the army works in the same way here as it does america with the people who join. most tend to be very unqualified and those who are qualified normally serve as officers. but your post actually brings up an interesting point that i will take to address now.

in another thread regarding minimum wage someone said that poor people are poor because of their own failings and things they have done (getting knocked up or being a junkie were the examples) i think your point regarding soldiers joining because of poverty surely disqaualifies the idea that poor people are poor because they deserve it.

back on topic. i know two ta members (both plan to join the regular army) and say they are not fighting for any particular cause or belief. i work with them both so aren't desperate un-employed. they are joining because they see it as a good career they are qualified for. and they want to be combat soliders (one wants to be in the paras). people are given the choice to become desk people but turn it down or aren't qualified or there isn't infinite space. some though just don't like the idea of that kind of job and want to be combat soldiers and not for belief reasons or out of desperation but because that is what they want to do.

one of them is an abosolute ass and is an arrogant, lying, ass who can't do his job probably right now let alone in the army. i would not consider him now, on the day he collects his uniform, on the day he fires his first shot. i'll consider him a hero if and when he proves himself to be one by doing somthing heroic.

same for any other soldier.

again this thread is not meant to belittle anyone or thier loss. this a thread on what counts as herodom.

also this thread is a discussion on that and is not useless or pointless as it is intended as a discussion. which it is.